I. General information
This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.
I. General information
This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 04, 2020 at 08:29 AM.
II. Strategy & gameplay
To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.
III. Provinces (incl. names, provincial titles, resources, map features etc.)
The provinces that have historically been assigned to this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file.
Provincial titles:
General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
Catholic: I considered the use of the Hungarian term “Ispán”. However, because the title will be used also by other catholic factions, I've decided to use the Latin term "Comes".
Orthodox, Muslim: generic "Knyaz of" and "Emir of".
Coast of arms: have been reviewed and updated to be as historical as possible.
Names of provinces: should be in Latin, so some adjustments are still needed - tbd.
Targoviste (Wallachia; Severin_Province)
PT: Voivode ... (Slavic and Hungarian title)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Settlement name: . Is has been changed from Severin that was in place in the earlier SSHIP versions but was pertinent to 13th century (Banat of Severin), but not for the whole territory, and it has lost in significance later on. In 14th century it should be Argeş, in 15th Târgovişte.
Resources: ...
Fertility: ...
(explanation in 098: the settlement of province Wallachia moved from Severin to Târgovişte (ie far to the east) to make it more historical for the next centuries (it will be a capital in 14c) but more importantly to make that area actually a space to play for the player (it serves as a gateway between the steppes and the Balkans) and to make the AI behavior more rational (any big hole in the map that perplexes the AI, and here it's crucial given the proximity of big settlements of Byzantium).* four provinces made landlocked (their borders changed so that their coasts were given to the neighboring provinces) because of historicity issues (they were not related to the sea) but also taking into account the number of land connections important for the trade income: Sidjilmasa, Tayma, Carinthia, Sarkel.)
Ras (Rascia; Ras_Province)
PT: župan of Rascia ?
CoA: ...
Province name: ...
Settlement name: correct for the 12 th century.
Resources: ...
Fertility: 1. Deep mountains, withouth technological or social infrastructure.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; September 18, 2021 at 05:12 AM.
IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)
The Crown of Serbia is discussed in this entry.
The Offices are described in this thread.
Serbia has access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction.
There's a unique building in Ras:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Serb Blood: not checked.
Specific traits: not checked.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 21, 2022 at 11:38 AM.
V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)
to be developed in due course
VI. Units
The Serbian military was under the influence from both Byzantium and the Italian area. In the later Middle Ages the armour and weapons were predominantly of the Western, Italian style, while in the iconography it features the lamellar and scale armour typical for the Greek cultural area.
An interesting entry on the Urban Crossbow Militia was made by Rad for the Tsardoms.
To be corrected:
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; May 17, 2022 at 12:15 PM.
VIII. Reserve
to be used if needed
It is difficult find information about serbian army previous 12 th century and images, but they were mainly southern slavs(so at the beginning of the game they should have the panoply of mixture of Slavs and Byzantine influence, to later westernize more ...). Furthemore i have contacted with a serbian friend that maybe he could help us.
Some information and images than could be helpful to sship team for improve their units rosters:
Serbia
Pliny the Younger with his work Plinii Caecilii Secundi Historia Naturalis from the 1st century (69-75) mentions the Serbs, who lived near Cimerios, probably in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.
In the 2nd century (approximately 175), the Egyptian scientist Claudius Ptolemy mentioned in his Geography (book 5, 9.21) to the Serboi or Sirboi, a tribe that lived in Sarmacia, probably in the North Caucasus, next to the Lower Volga, or together To the Black Sea. Contemporaries of Ptolemy, such as Tacitus and Pliny the Elder (Naturalis Historia, VI) could also be a Serboi in the immediate vicinity of the Caucasus.
According to the work called "De administrando Imperio", written by Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos (912-959), Balkanic Serbs who came from pagan white Serbs who lived on the other side of Turkey (name used for Hungary), in the area which they called Bojki. The neighbors of white Serbs were Great Croatia or white State and pagan Francica. Porphyrogennetos claims that after two brothers inherited Serbia (i.e. White Serbia) from their father, one of them, with half the people, marched to the Byzantine Empire (in the Balkans). For his help to the emperor Heraclius in his fights against the Avars, this establishes them established in an area of the province of Macedonia, close to the current Greek city of Servia. Later, its expansion towards the north took place.
In the Balkans, the Serbs were located in the area of the Tara, Ibar, Drina and Lim rivers (in the current border area of Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina), and together with surrounding southern Slavic tribes who saw the Balkans before. (in the 6th century), along with Avars. Over time, these tribes also adopted the Serbian name as their own.
When Simeon I took the throne of Bulgaria, the Serbian territories became part of this kingdom, but the Serbs fought for their independence. Byzantium on many occasions supported the Serbs, so that they would try to create more conflict zones for them and that they would have to defend several places at the same time. In the 10th century, the Bulgarian tsar Samuel decided to appoint Prince Vladimir as governor of Zeta, this territory occupied Montenegro and Herzegovina.
At the beginning of the 11th century, it had a few years of great splendor, it became strong on the Balkan peninsula. The Zeta principality became a nucleus of anti-Byzantine resistance, marked by certain interests. Even in the year 1,077, Prince Michael received his crown from the Pope of Rome, this was quite a provocation. Also at this time, he managed to conquer some territories of Rascia to Byzantium.
King Bodín de Zeta, the one who made this conquest, put two zupanes in this territory to defend their interests: Vukan and Marcos. With them the Nemanja dynasty would be born. Half a century later, Zeta achieved full independence from Byzantium.
The time of splendor came with Esteban Nemanja, known in the Orthodox Church as the Saint (Saint Simeon). Before dying he abdicated and retired to Mount Athos where his son Sava was already. Stephen asked the Byzantine emperor to found a Serbian monastery on that mountain and it was granted, so Hilandar was born.
Just a year before he died, his son Stephen I was to succeed him, since the Serbs were much closer to the Orthodox Church.
In 1.204, the fourth crusade took place that was going to destroy Byzantium, a fact that the Bulgarians took advantage of mainly, to strengthen themselves in the Balkan peninsula, but the Serbs were quite settled in the area and also participated in the occupation of some Byzantine territories.
IMAGES SERBIAN ARMY
I hope it helps
Last edited by j.a.luna; March 24, 2020 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Typo
THE MORE YOU SWEAT NOW,
THE LESS YOU BLEED IN BATTLE!!!
Sign the petition to remove hardcoded limits for M2TW
I could help with army structure, if you want, and if you need help at all.
Is mod concept still up to 17th centrury?
'Earrly era' Serb army was heavly influenced by ERE. However due to unit limit, it can be tricky.
Serb army throught history had good spearmen line, pronijari were a unit of nobles similar to ERE proniars (preaty much the same). Later Serb armies were much more influenced by west. Famous Serb knights were preaty much as we think of western knights. Bascinets, half plate armor (althouth also used lamelar) and so on... One other thing that can separate them, and make them as unique distinctive unit is they armor. Timur at Ankara in 1402 fought Ottomans. In that Ottoman army, there were serb vassals. Mongols described them as very brave soldiers who rescued heirs of ottomans. They were described as weilding black armor.
So, serb spearmen should be a thing. Pronijari (early nobles). Vitezovi ( Serbian Knights).
I dont know how much unique units you can give to serbs, but those are must in my opinion.
Those pictures that Luna posted are preaty accurate. As you already know, they are for 'later era'.
So if you tell me exact timeline of mod that u plan to be in future, free unit slots that could be given to serbs, etc. Maybe i could provide more info. Searching online sources for serb army is extremly problematic, especialy for 12th century. 14th century could be done via online.
We need something similar to the Georgian roster. And obviously it should be as close as possible to the existing Serbian roster.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 25, 2020 at 06:02 AM.
Furthermore, the Tsardoms mod has very friendly policy towards using their units so the roster could be adjusted to make use of their fantastic work.
But only for a later period
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
I know Serbia is still a WIP, but I hope the team don't mind my pitching two cents in.
My first impression looking at territorial ambition is that we players are supposed to simulate the zenith of the Kingdom of Serbia during the reign of Stefan Dusan. However at the start of the game we only possess Rascia, and that castle is a dead end, potential wise. Hence the only way to expand is towards the Adriatic, and the best settlement we will have for quite a while is obviously Ragusa.
Here is the conundrum. Ragusa can be upgraded into a minor city with the help of a 4-chivalry points or more governor. It's enticing to set Ragusa as the capital city, and start competing with Italian factions for rich coastal cities to support a standing army before taking on the Romans. It is a far cry from being a feudal, hinterland kingdom. I don't know if it's the team's intention, but it seems to me that the best way to play as Serbia is by not being Serbian; I'm practically playing a culturally Dalmatian faction with Serbian flavour.
In any case, I had a lot of fun playing this faction. Looking forward to a more polished Serbia.
This is the major problem with this faction. Serbia begins in the lat 12th century and gets its status only in mid-14th. Actually Bulgaria should have been on the map, but it had been decided otherwise, and we've got a limited number of faction slots. So it's like this and I imagine that any player will play like you.
There're few examples of similar problems - Lithuania was not there for another century, Pisa was superseded by Genoa already in late 13th century, Norway shouldn't perhaps get to the play as a faction etc. But choices were made in the past and we carry on.
Yes, but I as the player am also part of the problem if we're talking about historicity. I can't wait 150 turns basically just turtling and doing the odd skirmish while waiting for the Romans to crumble apart. It serves as an interesting alternate history anyway; personally I am happy with the team's work of a roughly accurate representation of the 12th century and plausible future options.
You can see that in my other post, I basically created a maritime empire fueled by, guess what, Italian ranged units and Varangians. I have never touched the Pronoiarii even once
The stratiotes pronoiarioi are currently recruitable by ERE and Serbia in game.
From nikossaiz:
However, I'm wondering how accurate it is regarding Serbia?The granting of pronoia (from eis pronoian - 'to administer'), beginning in the reign of Alexios I, was to become a notable element in the military infrastructure towards the end of the Komnenian period, though it became even more important subsequently. The pronoia was essentially the grant of rights to receive revenue from a particular area of land, a form of tax farming, and it was held in return for military obligations. Pronoia holders, whether native or of foreign origin, lived locally in their holding and collected their income at source, eliminating the cost of an unnecessary level of bureaucracy, also the pronoia ensured an income for the soldier whether or not he was on active campaign or on garrison duty. The pronoiar also had a direct interest in keeping his 'fief' productive and in defending the locality in which it was situated. The local people who worked the land under a pronoiar also rendered labour services, making the system semi-feudal, though the pronoia was not strictly hereditary. It is very probable that, like the landowning magnates, pronoiars had armed retinues and that the military service that this class provided was not limited to the pronoiar himself.Though Manuel I extended the provision of pronoia, payment of troops by cash remained the norm.
From achilles-91 (a few posts above):
Anyone to confirm that this unit is right or not for Serbia? If it's inaccurate, what kind of other medium cavalry unit could replace them for Serbia?'Early era' Serb army was heavly influenced by ERE. However due to unit limit, it can be tricky.
Serb army throught history had good spearmen line, pronijari were a unit of nobles similar to ERE proniars (preaty much the same).
Thanks in advance.
Another question: based on the real history, should Serbia start as a vassal of the ERE? Actually, Serbia became really independant from the ERE under the Nemanjić dynasty (2nd half of the 12th century).
Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 26, 2020 at 02:20 AM.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Another point to consider is how the AI respect such "alliance". If there's no chance that it breaks it soon or later, it might be better to not do it for the game play
Btw, I'm also looking for CoA used in Serbia during the 12-13th centuries
Edit 1: I've found these:
Not sure how they are accurateSpoiler Alert, click show to read:
Edit2: an interesting article about the serbian heraldry: http://www.czipm.org/cluj-workshop.html
Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 26, 2020 at 07:33 AM.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
What I've found so far:
Serbian Cross: Modified arms of Palaiologos dynasty (ERE), obviously not used officially before the 14th century.
Triballia CoA: not used before the 15th century.
Vojislavljević dynasty coat of arms (1034 - 1186).
Nemanjić dynasty coat of arms (1166 - 1371 / Emperor from 1346)
House of Branković: ruled Serbia from 1427 to 1459.
House of Dejanović: 1346 - 1395
House of Orlović: from 1320
Lazarević dynasty: ruled Serbia from 1371 to 1389.
House of Mrnjavčević: 1365 - 1395
Vojislavljević and Nemanjić dynasties CoA can be used easily. As others are more recent, I'm not so sure
Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 28, 2020 at 06:14 AM.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
AI Serbs usually try to break the alliance when they see the Romans begin to crumble militarily (usually when Attaleia and Nicaea are taken). Otherwise, they stay pretty docile and create an alliance with Hungary, making the Balkans very stable.
It's exactly the reason I almost always keep them as a vassal state.