Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43

Thread: ENGLAND

  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default ENGLAND

    I. General information

    This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.

    The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 04, 2020 at 07:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default [F] - England

    II. Strategy & gameplay


    To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.

  3. #3
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default [F] - England

    III. Provinces

    The provinces that have historically been associated with this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file. However, some may be in another faction's thread - due to historical or purely technical reasons. In particular, the three provinces north of England are in the Scotland thread, while all provinces on the continent are in the France thread.

    Provincial titles:
    General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
    Catholic: If we say that the provincial title should reflect somebody entrusted with care of the province, then the title used in the Middle Ages would be Duke.

    Orthodox:
    generic “Knyaz” + name + suffix "skyi".
    Muslim: generic "Emir of" + settlement name.
    Coast of arms: to be reviewed.


    London (Norwich, Norwich_Province)
    PT: xxx.
    CoA: xxx.
    Settlement name:
    xxx.
    Province name:
    xxx.
    Resources:
    ok.
    Fertility:
    ok.
    Population: data for 11c. says 18k, for 14c. 45k.


    Norwich (Norwich, Norwich_Province)
    PT: xxx.
    CoA: xxx.
    Settlement name:
    xxx.
    Province name:
    xxx.
    Resources:
    ok.
    Fertility:
    ok.
    A short description of the castle is here.

    Kaernarvon (Caernarvon, Caernarvon_Province)
    PT: xxx.
    CoA: xxx.
    Settlement name:
    Kaerenarvon. Present day Caernarfon in North wales is a evolution of the original welsh "yr gaer yn arfon" which is a better fit than the renderings of Kaerenarvon and Caerenarvon found in the Brut.
    Note there is no letter k or letter v in the welsh alphabet.

    Province name:
    Wales.
    Resources:
    ok.
    Fertility:
    ok.

    Interesting clips about medieval English towns:

    Birmingham
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The La Manche is a space where a lot of trade may take place:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 23, 2023 at 03:06 PM.

  4. #4
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default [F] - England

    IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elendil 03 View Post
    Miles is singular, the plural (for unit names) should be Milites.
    Regnum Norman-Anglorum is quite anachronistic. Today, we also don't speak about the "Windsor Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland". Regnum Anglorum would make a lot more sense IMHO. .
    The Crown of England is discussed in this entry.

    The Offices are described in this thread.

    England has access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction: Castle Library, University (the highest level), Tourney Fields.

    There is also a unique building to be built in London:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    In a few English provinces a special builiding Hansa can be built, and in the neighbourhood provinces in Scotland or France, there're both unique and regional buildings.


    English Blood: not checked yet.

    Specific traits: not checked yet.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 05, 2022 at 02:13 PM.

  5. #5
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default [F] - England

    V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

    to be developed in due course

  6. #6
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default [F] - England

    VI. Units

    to be developed in due course.

    For Wales:
    A useful text is here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Used2BRoz View Post
    Discovered this Ph.D. thesis from Wales by Samantha Colcough: Image and Reality in Medieval Weaponry and Warfare:Wales c.1100 – c.1450.
    400 pages (almost) and has a lot of archeological evidence as well as detailed discussion of literary and other sources. It's a free download from here :

    https://research.bangor.ac.uk/portal...olcough_SJ.pdf
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    e there were very few differences between the weapons usedby the Welsh and the English to begin with. The perceived adoption of essentially Europeanmilitary equipment by the elite was undoubtedly about the image that it portrayed, an imagethat Pryce (2007, 45) suggests is best seen alongside the adoption of other elements ofEuropean culture, as a strategy of distinction designed to elevate their status within their ownsociety. The images portrayed in poetry and art were designed to set them apart as a militaryelite. However, these images were not an accurate portrayal of the Welsh at war, rather theycreated the image of the princes as medieval knights, and demonstrated their similarity toboth their English and European counterparts.It would be expected that the English influence on the Welsh would be moreprominent in the post-conquest period, as Welsh soldiers were being included in Englisharmies in campaigns in both Scotland and France in much higher numbers than before theconquest in 1282. Again, the archaeological record has not provided significant evidence forany change. This may be due to the fact that war was being fought elsewhere during thisperiod and therefore the numbers of finds available in Welsh contexts of this date ispotentially diminished. On the other hand this may further support the idea that in realitythere were very few differences between the weaponry used by both sides. However, thehistorical record does provide potential clues to changes that were taking place to weaponryand warfare in Wales during the post conquest period.


    For Ireland:
    Maybe useful for the Irish Kerns re-make. It hasn't changed much until 12c., I'd guess (or it's based on what we know, which is perhaps more medieval.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 04, 2022 at 01:05 AM.

  7. #7
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default [F] - England

    VIII. Reserve

    to be used if needed

  8. #8
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default Re: [F] - ENGLAND

    Quote Originally Posted by Used2BRoz View Post
    In England, the longbowmen of the Hundred Years war period, were typically paid half that of a billman.
    They were mustered for a campaign and disbanded at the end of it.

    Only professional English longbowmen would those in royal or noble retinues or mercenary soldiers in free companies.
    The rest were ordinary folk who just had a longbow and whatever bits and pieces of armour they could accumulate or were issued with.
    Weapons would be short sword / dagger and that's about it. And a mallet.
    The mustered longbowmen weren't given any training in melee fighting, if they survived they may learn if they fought in several campaigns.
    Seasoned campaigners would try and teach newly recruited longbowmen the basics whilst on campaign.
    In certain circumstances they could be useful as light infantry but one-on-one wouldn't last long against professional infantry on solid ground.

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Have now installed SSHIP latest version with patch.
    Playing as England.
    A few observations.

    Present day Caernarfon in North wales is a evolution of the original welsh "yr gaer yn arfon" which is a better fit than the renderings of Kaerenarvon and Caerenarvon found in the Brut.

    Note there is no letter k or letter v in the welsh alphabet.
    ------------------------

    mercenaries - saxon huscarls in england in 1130s England ?
    Nope none still alive then
    Any that survived the uprisings against the norman invaders had either died or fled abroad by this date.
    They need removing.
    ----------------

    English roster
    professional longbow archers didn't exist in England at this time.
    You might find a few mercenary crossbowmen employed in garrisons.
    Any archers in England at this time would be equipped with longbows, but were poorly trained and used in small numbers.
    Fyrd spearmen and spear militia are the same people in England
    The fyrd being anglo-saxon in origin didn't exist outside of England, so it would simpler to delete them completely so England can recruit basic spearmen everywhere.
    The fyrd went out of use during the 12th century anyway

  10. #10
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Used2BRoz View Post
    mercenaries - saxon huscarls in england in 1130s England ?
    Nope none still alive then
    Any that survived the uprisings against the norman invaders had either died or fled abroad by this date.
    They need removing.
    Finally, someone agree with what I've been saying for a long while now
    Agree also about the fyrd: very local unit.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  11. #11
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default Re: [F] - England

    I wonder if the choice of Lincoln as the main settlement in the Midlands and the choice of Bristol in the Wessex are the right ones.
    What would we think eg. about Nottingham and Winchester? Or maybe something else?



    In the DAC both exist:

    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; August 03, 2020 at 08:47 AM.

  12. #12
    Nemesis2345's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Constanta, Romania
    Posts
    456

    Default Re: [F] - England

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I wonder if the choice of Lincoln as the main settlement in the Midlands and the choice of Bristol in the Wessex are the right ones.
    What would we think eg. about Nottingham and Winchester? Or maybe something else?
    From what i've read , both Nottingham and Lincoln castles were built at the same time , however i noticed Nottingham had a bit more political activity overall , including a siege fron Lionheart himself.

    For centuries the castle served as one of the most important in England for nobles and royalty alike. In a strategic position due to its location near a crossing of the River Trent, it was also known as a place of leisure, being close to the royal hunting grounds at Tideswell, the "Kings Larder" in the Royal Forest of the Peak, and also close to the royal forests of Barnsdale and Sherwood. The castle also had its own deer park in the area immediately to the west, still known as The Park.[
    -wikipedia on Nottingham

  13. #13

    Default Re: ENGLAND

    English names could be taken from Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman sources... though, I would at least choose Anglo-Saxon names meticulously. For example.. Ralph, Osbern, Edmund, Baldwin, Carl, Siward, Edward are good, but maybe not Aelfwig, Gyrth, etc. and if purer Anglo-saxon names are used they should be sparing to indicate the displacement of that linguistic identity
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Categ...rom_Old_French
    http://domesday.pase.ac.uk/

  14. #14

    Default Re: ENGLAND

    While looking for info on the english longbow i came across this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...k_Roll_of_Arms
    I didn't know that, did anyone? Perhaps it could be a useful resource? Seems to be a lot of authentic heraldry depicted very clearly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post




    And Jurand, now that I saw it again, I think those map textures look really pretty with the red and yellow (or brown) trees and the crops! Could we ask for permission to use them? Would they be compatible with the sship map? Or would the current ones be better?
    Last edited by removeduser_28376423423; October 20, 2020 at 05:39 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    A little tweak to the English family tree that I am enjoying. Adding Henry Plantagenet as a son to Geoffrey and Matilda. Configured as below when Henry I dies Stephen will become the Heir and Henry II will be the king regardless if he is of age or no. Not entirely historically accurate but pretty close. Being able to set the age to 0 makes the age correct as when most children are born they are already 1 I think, so he is 1 in 1133. I've tried leaving both Stephen and Henry II with the heir designation, but Henry II becomes the king with Stephen AND Robert as Heirs. I haven't tried Killing Robert yet to see if it continues to pass a 2nd heir designation or if it dies out with the now limited family tree, maybe even designating one of the other generals as the new 2nd heir and starting a 2nd tree like the Greek Romans and the not so Romans. You can also just add Henry II without designating him as the heir, but getting him crowned as the faction leader may be tricky.

    In most of my campaigns poor Geoffrey only has girls and the dynasty must continue through the de Blois line. I've never been a fan of Stephen so I don't like this.

    I've only tested this by way of killing Henry I; not sure what happens when you let him die. I've had him make it to 88 before.

    1. add this line to the bottom of the character records in the descr_strat.txt

    Henry Plantagenet, male, age 0, alive, current_heir

    2. add Henry to the relations section

    relative Geoffrey Plantagenet, Matilda of_Normandy, Henry Plantagenet, end

    3. Remove the Factionleader 1 trait from Robert Curthose (unless you want him to be the next heir after Henry I)

    4. Remove the Heir designation from Stephen

  16. #16

    Default Re: ENGLAND

    ANGLO-NORMAN PROPOSAL UNIT ROSTER:

    Playing beta version of August 2021 SSHIP 0.98 with Regnum Anglo-Norman i have some PROPOSAL/IDEAS for units/unit roster for this faction and also for NORMAN STYLE (also sicilians):



    1. THE LONGBOW
    -"The longbow was first recorded in the British Isles when it was used by the Welsh in 633. Offrid, the son of Edwino of Deira, King of Northumbria, was killed by an arrow shot from a Welsh longbow during a battle. between Welsh and Mercians, more than five centuries before any record of its military use in England. Despite this, the weapon is commonly known as the "English longbow" rather than the "Welsh longbow".
    -"During the Anglo-Norman invasions of Wales, Welsh archers took a heavy toll on the invaders using this extraordinary weapon of war. The English quickly realized the impact that the longbow could produce on the battlefield. As soon as the Welsh campaign concluded successfully, the Welsh recruits began to be incorporated into the English army. The lessons the English learned in Wales were later used to deadly effect by Welsh mercenaries on the battlefields of France and Scotland. His skill was exercised under King Edward I of England (1239-1307), who banned all sports except archery on Sunday to ensure that it was practiced exclusively."

    *So this weapon and unit should be at the beginning of the game only in Wales region (Kaerenarvon settlement) as a "revolution weapon", maybe Jurand can make a script if you conquest Wales as England or Scotland and that region remains with you, you can create welsh longbowmen unit and longbowmen unit in your archery until the use of the longbow becomes widespread in the middle of the 13th century(military reforms of Edward I).
    *Another option ( and easier) is make a hidden resource (Welsh or longbow) for hire the welsh longbowmen and also the welsh spearmen (both should be regional units) at the beginning of the game ONLY in the settlement of Kaerenarvon (archery) and as mercenary in this region (first low replacement and in s.XIII more recruitment fill). The data is historical that the longbow already existed previously and this would make the game more flavorful by conquering this region and obtaining welsh longbowmen for your army.After an event (military reforms of Edward I) the English could already count and recruit the longbowmen in their archery (13th century) for example...


    2. ANGLO-SAXON HUSKARLS
    -Renaming the saxon huskarls as ANGLO-SAXON huskarls, the huskarls were an integral part of the Anglo-Saxon armies (no only saxons), also this is for the anglosaxon huskarls hired by byzantines as mercenaries, here a brief summary of the old Anglo-Saxon armies, which in the gameplay still had vestiges of the old Anglo-Saxon army such as the Fyrd and the huscarls.
    https://arrecaballo.es/edad-media/sa...s-o-husecarles

    *Maybe and only for England at the beginning of the game, in addition to being recruited as mercenaries, they could be recruited in the core of English castles / cities (castle level / local guard same as miles and miles pedites) but ONLY IN THE BRITISH ISLANDS.

    *Also exist in the current unit roster 5 units of longbowmen in the game for english IRC... WELSH LONGBOWMEN-LONGBOWMEN-MERCENARY LONGBOWMEN-YEOMAN LONGBOWMEN- RETINUE LONGBOWMEN. I think that could remove 1 unit of this for 1 more free slot as "Mercenary longbowmen or longbowmen"


    3.CROWBOW MILITIA AND ARCHERS

    -I do not know why currently the English do not have crossbowmen when this weapon was already used throughout Europe, a remarkable fact is that in the Norman conquest of England, William the Conqueror had many peasant crossbowmen, (the famous Norman wooden crossbows)It appears approximately in the 10th century, in the siege war in northern France and quickly spread throughout Europe. Perhaps the Normans were already using it in 1066, surprising the Byzantines in 1096 that they were completely unaware of this weapon.
    The crossbows were not described in the Bayeux tapestry, although written sources say that they were used, it is possible that they were Bretons, who used them regularly.
    If it is true that the use of the bow became widespread long after the Norman Conquest, archers were important, they used the Norman short bow and William himself was a renowned archer, the skill with the bow became more common in England after the conquest.

    *in the gameplay I think that at the beginning of the game there could be crossbow militia / levy in English cities but the bow predominates in England, for example a 3 for 1 being the crossbow militiamen the amount recruited


    4. NORMAN SERGEANTS

    -Add SHIELDWALL ABILITY/SKILL for this unit, the same as their counterparts and original Scandinavians (norwegian / danish spearmen) and also that the units "miles pedites" that are also professional Norman warriors already have this ability of shield wall in the current version. Once the norman sergeant give way to the new generations of sergeant spearmen this ability will be lost as they were no longer as "Viking-Norman" in fighting style.


    Historically, like their enemies the Anglo-Saxons, the Normans also used to make a shield wall with their infantry.

    *also as an addition it could be said that these Norman sergeants could also be added to the initial roster of the Sicilians-NORMANS at the beginning of the game, since both factions were originally Norman with slight variations in their fighting style (mixture of Anglo-Saxons in the Anglo-Saxon army / Norman and mixture of Italians and Muslims for Sicilian-Normans)


    -Here some information about NORMAN armies---- https://arrecaballo.es/edad-media/sa...teria-normanda


    5. NORMAN KNIGHTS

    Currently in the game they are the "evolution" of the miles and miles pedites units.


    For the English they can be the prelude to the evolution of feudal knights in all their regions but currently they do not have their version on foot (only the Sicilians have both units of Norman knights and dismounted norman knights).
    Therefore I propose to include both versions of this gentleman to the 2 units roster (Sicily and England), similar to the case of norman sergeants.


    *The only variations on these Norman armies from different regions would be:


    -ENGLAND --- NORMAN UNITS (MILES, MILES PEDITES, NORMAN KNIGHTS, DISMOUNTED NORMAN KNIGHTS, NORMAN SERGEANTS) and ANGLOSAXON TROOPS (ANGLOSAXON HUSKARLS AND SAXON SPEARMEN) AND ARCHERS / LEVY ARCHERS AND LONGBOWMEN IF YOU CONQUEST WALES.


    -SICILIANS --- NORMAN UNITS (MILES, MILES PEDITES, NORMAN KNIGHTS, DISMOUNTED NORMAN KNIGHTS, NORMAN SERGEANTS) and ITALIAN TROOPS (ITALIAN SPEARMEN / URBAN SPEAR MILITIA, CROSSBOWMEN ...) And MUSLIMS TROOPS (BERBERS ARCHERS AND MERCENARIES SARACEN)


    -They could be a mercenary and regional unit (knights and dismounted knights) both in the Normandy region and surroundings (Normandy, South of England and North of France) and also in the south of Italy (Naples, Bari, Reggio and the island of Sicily ) from some event (year 1200 ??). This would attract many players to control these regions or at least visit them to hire these fierce and famous Norman knights.


    6. THE REST OF THE ARMY

    In my opinion the rest of the army is good.
    It would have a normal European style except for the more frequent use of the bow compared to the rest of "European countries", (spear militia, ax militia, levy archers, hobilars ...), then over time it is true that they appear the Billmen and other units of English gentlemen. The English would have to focus more on foot units like dismounted knights and foot soldiers, as opposed to their archenemies the French more focused on cavalry.


    ***As always, I hope to help with my proposals to make the game more historical and immersive, as well as trying to make the rosters more unique for the factions and try to "regionalize" the units more.
    Of course I would like to see your opinions and if for example you would like to CREATE new units from 0 since my proposals are in the short term "remodeling" the current roster so that it does not have to be done from 0 if not to use the current units by renaming them, readjusting them and relocating them, as well as trying to eliminate units that may already exist doubly to have more free slots for future occasions.


    Greetings friends.
    Last edited by j.a.luna; November 06, 2021 at 08:11 PM. Reason: NORMAN PROPOSAL
    THE MORE YOU SWEAT NOW,
    THE LESS YOU BLEED IN BATTLE!!!



    Sign the petition to remove hardcoded limits for M2TW

  17. #17

    Default Re: ENGLAND

    The huscarls are gone by 1132 unfortunately. I can see the justification for having a limited availability in Byzantium since English nobility did trickle into the area, but the last Anglo-Saxon magnates were out of England by the 1080s. Really don't think they belong in the mod anymore, at least as a native soldier.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  18. #18

    Default Re: ENGLAND

    Jurand, speaking about my english proposal, more specifically about the welsh longbowmen, do you think that for the next version of sship they can be recruited as AOR in Wales and surroundings? perhaps also as mercenaries, but that was already at the beginning of the game, so I explained that since the year 633 the Welsh already used this weapon and it was the English who adopted the Welsh longbow to later include it in their army. I think it would be well represented and historically correct if at least early in the game you could have Welsh AOR troops when you conquer the Wales region and include these Welsh longbows in your army (along with the welsh spearmen), later in the game they will appear. English longbow and their yeoman, but at first it would be reflected that the great sustenance of longbows would come from the Wales region
    THE MORE YOU SWEAT NOW,
    THE LESS YOU BLEED IN BATTLE!!!



    Sign the petition to remove hardcoded limits for M2TW

  19. #19
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    8,451

    Default Re: ENGLAND

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Jurand, speaking about my english proposal, more specifically about the welsh longbowmen, do you think that for the next version of sship they can be recruited as AOR in Wales and surroundings? perhaps also as mercenaries, but that was already at the beginning of the game, so I explained that since the year 633 the Welsh already used this weapon and it was the English who adopted the Welsh longbow to later include it in their army. I think it would be well represented and historically correct if at least early in the game you could have Welsh AOR troops when you conquer the Wales region and include these Welsh longbows in your army (along with the welsh spearmen), later in the game they will appear. English longbow and their yeoman, but at first it would be reflected that the great sustenance of longbows would come from the Wales region
    I don't think we'd touch the English roster by the next release. Perhaps later.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 01, 2023 at 08:24 PM.

  20. #20

    Default English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    I'm currently in the year 1266 playing as the Regnum Norman-Anglorum and I've been waiting with bated breath for my beautiful longbowmen to be unlocked for recruitment, and have even been holding back on wars because I want to enjoy them. I recently started seeing the Welsh Longbowmen finally available for mercenary recruitment around 1256 and I would really like to know if anyone can tell me which year the more typical English Longbows will be unlocked.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •