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Thread: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

  1. #41
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    Vingulmǫrk was a petty kingdom and later Jarldom centred around the Oslo fjord, which from the 12th-14th century was split into Oslosyssel and Borgarsyssel.

    I've changed hard drives and thus lost my SSHIP install, could I get a quick screenshot of the region map of Norway? I can come with better input then :p
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  2. #42

    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)


    Here, Athelstan.

  3. #43
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    Vingulmǫrk would fit the region around Oslo from what I can see then - As for the other region, it is larger than any standard division inside Norway.

    In the first half of the 12th century towards the union with Denmark Norway was divided into sysler that looked like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Vingulmǫrk here has been split into Oslosysle and Borgarsysle.


    However, a point can be argued for the original names to stand, as the Tings did indeed cover a geographical area - each Ting had its own area of juridistiction, and one can often sort the various sysler in groupings according to the Ting they stood under. Doing so allows for a larger grouping of land, which is necessary considering Norway is very brutally divided on the map above :p

    Gulatingslo̧g is assumed to cover ish the area marked in red, Borgartingslo̧g in dark green:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Thus, I'd rather the regions stay named after the Tings so as to remain consistent across both regions, as they are the most accurate representation of the geographical area SSHIP has split the regions into.
    Last edited by King Athelstan; January 05, 2021 at 06:23 AM.
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  4. #44
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    So, may I conclude that current Borgaržingslǫg and Gulažingslǫg are ok? (@kaiser, @Ceph)

  5. #45

    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    Athelstan produced a respectable explanation that I can be on board with. However, if I am not wrong, the Borgaržingslǫg and Gulažingslǫg are administrative divisions rather than purely geographical ones. In contrast, the region of Swabia (not the Duchy) in Germany is one that is a historic cultural region. I think it makes more sense for the regions to have more of a 'regional' connotation than an administrative one. And though the Tings are historical and accurate as Athelstan stated, I think it would be strange to control the regions as a faction other than Norway or Denmark and be stuck with an administrative district that would likely be abolished.

    After all the years in England the old regions names generally just evolved into their modern forms...
    Noršhymbra northhumbria north england
    Eastsex essex
    Sušsex sussex
    Westsex wessex
    Eastangle East Anglia
    Miercna Mercia

    or in Germany...
    Brannenborg Brandinburc (though I slip here as it is named from the principality, methinks. Could be Mark von Brandinburc, maybe. I don't know the whole MHG name)
    Saxony Sachsin
    Bohemia Bźmin
    Rhineland Rīnelant
    Austria Ōstirrīch
    Swabia Swābin

    So, while I am fine with Jutland, Sialand, Skane, etc. I am still wary of the Tings, but not opposed to them.
    Last edited by Cephalophore; January 05, 2021 at 08:29 PM.

  6. #46
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    I see your point Ceph regarding how it would conflict with the naming convention elsewhere, it certainly is something to think about. However, I don't believe there any better names for them, especially considering where the regions are divided. Simply saying "Western Norway" for example would be very odd, as a very large chunk is what we'd by that style call Southern Norway. So while the logs aren't purely geographical, they're a better indication than anything else.
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  7. #47
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    After second thoughts, I think that Bondir, the unit signifying free farmers (actually, petty landowners), should be a spearmen unit, in the type of spear militia or spearmen (weak on armour, but strong on morale).

    Of course, the best would be to implement the proposals from this thread...

  8. #48

    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    So I just got the mod a few weeks back and have been looking through the various faction guide threats. I noticed the mention that it says that scandinavia has 0 soil fertility. I then had a geografi lesson that said that the danish soil is apparently some of the best in the world for farming due to the low levels of erosion, break down of organic materials and something to do with the ice age. I dont know if you guys would want to show that or how it would be balanced. Just thought you should know. Have a nice day.

  9. #49
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    The potential of Scandinavia is perhaps underestimated.
    I don't know who or how the campaign map fertility levels were assigned. It should be discussed with the author ...

  10. #50

    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    @Stivanderen
    I'm not the author of course, but if we talk about geography lessons, it's interesting because my teachers told me an exact opposite, and that best soil sits in Ukraine and France.
    Also it seems Viking/Norsemen age and raids happened due to high population and poor soil in Denmark and Norway.

    Anyway, here is a global soil fertility map that shows it

    Or Europe only (green is great, pink is poor):

    Last edited by Just let me post; September 10, 2021 at 09:30 AM.

  11. #51

    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    This is a translation attempt from my Geo text.
    "in denmark the earth is geografically very young. It was created after the last ice age aroubd 12000 years ago. This means the the earth contains a lot of minerals, like clay and silt minerals that were left after the glaciers melted and receded. These minerals are very rich in nearly all the things plants need to grow. The earth also includes humus which is an organic compound that is added to farmand via animal manure or the remains of dead plants after a harvest. When the remains have been been broken down a lot of different nutrients are released. Due to the cold climate in denmark the organic materiale is slowly broken down and the minerals disappear slowly. This means that there is a slow and gradual release of nutrients to the planters. Therefore danish soil is, as a rule quite fertile and danish farmland among the most fertile in the world. "

    Btw I dont know if you guys know this but Lund should propably be the big money maker in scandinavia as the region it occupies sits on the herring trade

  12. #52

    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    (my Phone died) but I havent gone past 1200 yet as that is when the herring trade truly kicked off. Here is a Wikipedia link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A5ne_Market

  13. #53
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    Thanks, @Stivanderen. The Danish economy might need a review. The money made of fishing is reflected in the Hanseatic building that is available on the Scandinavian coast.

  14. #54
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    The new stuff for the factions is being introduced. Following the building Uppsala Domkyrka, there'll be also a reform related to this building - and then utilised for the other events/units.

    {DENMARK2_SANKT_ERIK_TITLE}Erik den Helige
    {DENMARK2_SANKT_ERIK_BODY}Erik Jedvardsson (Erik den Helige) was a Swedish king in the 12th century, c. 1156–1160. He was the founder of the House of Eric, which ruled Sweden with interruptions from c. 1156 to 1250. The only full account of Eric's life is a hagiographic legend dating from the late 13th century. The legend attributes Eric with the initial spread of the Christian faith into Finland, "which at this time was pagan and did Sweden great harm". In an effort to conquer and convert the Finns, he allegedly led the First Swedish Crusade east of the Baltic Sea.\n\nGAME STRATEGY: From this moment a shrine of St Erik is available to be built by any catholic faction in Sigtuna.
    Code:
    	;-------------------------------------------------------------------- DENMARK ST. ERIK	; St Erik is going on a crusade to Osterland
    	; historically ca. 1160
    	
        monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType denmark
    
    
    		if I_TurnNumber = 50
    		and I_SettlementOwner Sigtuna = denmark							; Denmark is there
    		and not I_IsFactionAIControlled denmark							; to ensure it's not another faction FL who's got the crown
    		and I_EventCounter number_school_built > 0						; at least one schools built by Denmark		
    
    
    			historic_event DENMARK2_SANKT_ERIK factions { poland, hre, france, england, scotland, norway, hungary, lithuania, kievan_rus, russia, }
    			
    			if not I_IsFactionAIControlled denmark
    				inc_event_counter denmark2_sankt_erik_player 1
    			end_if
    				
    			terminate_monitor
    		end_if
    
    
    		if I_TurnNumber > 70										; FALL BACK - in case of failure or a bug
    		and I_SettlementOwner Sigtuna = denmark
    		and RandomPercent < 10										; to add some randomness against the bugs
    		
    			historic_event DENMARK2_SANKT_ERIK factions { poland, hre, france, england, scotland, norway, hungary, lithuania, kievan_rus, russia, }
    			if not I_IsFactionAIControlled denmark
    				inc_event_counter denmark2_sankt_erik_player 1
    			end_if			
    			
    			terminate_monitor
    		end_if
    
    
    	end_monitor

  15. #55
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    The Scandinavians are my favorite factions after Georgia.

  16. #56
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    Great ! The next version is going to be exciting, I can tell !

  17. #57
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stivanderen View Post
    This is a translation attempt from my Geo text.
    "in denmark the earth is geografically very young. It was created after the last ice age aroubd 12000 years ago. This means the the earth contains a lot of minerals, like clay and silt minerals that were left after the glaciers melted and receded. These minerals are very rich in nearly all the things plants need to grow. The earth also includes humus which is an organic compound that is added to farmand via animal manure or the remains of dead plants after a harvest. When the remains have been been broken down a lot of different nutrients are released. Due to the cold climate in denmark the organic materiale is slowly broken down and the minerals disappear slowly. This means that there is a slow and gradual release of nutrients to the planters. Therefore danish soil is, as a rule quite fertile and danish farmland among the most fertile in the world. "

    Btw I dont know if you guys know this but Lund should propably be the big money maker in scandinavia as the region it occupies sits on the herring trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Just let me post View Post
    @Stivanderen
    I'm not the author of course, but if we talk about geography lessons, it's interesting because my teachers told me an exact opposite, and that best soil sits in Ukraine and France.
    Also it seems Viking/Norsemen age and raids happened due to high population and poor soil in Denmark and Norway.

    Anyway, here is a global soil fertility map that shows it

    Or Europe only (green is great, pink is poor):

    A problem with this map is that fertility of the soils is not unrelated to the human effort. The soils in the Ukraine could be very good but their potential could only be tapped in modern times (and only in 20th century to the fullest). Many inventions are needed, technical (plows, ways to keep fertility etc.), but the main barrier is evolution of social and political structures. In the Middle Ages these were steppes, providing rather little grain or stuff. Mostly used for nomadic husbandry.
    Similar issue was with the northern lands, including Poland and north Germany. There's too much water, everthing was covered with water. Only after irrigating it well and plowing with a heavy plow (unlike in the south, plowing was to remove excess of water and cut roots of plants, not just to add air), the soil would be great.
    Of course, for Scandinavia it was even worse. For centuries, the best way to feed population was to combine argiculture and fishing. Very thing possibilities of raising productivity of farming. Today, in 21st century, we're living in the golden times of the Scandinavian agriculture - and the global warming has nothing to do with it (actually, it will make things worse after the Gulfstream would cease to function).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 13, 2022 at 01:20 AM.

  18. #58

    Default Re: [F] - Denmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    VI. Units

    Lifthrasir with inputs from Kjertesvein and Ringek:

    NORWAY

    Militia
    Leidangr: early period, recruitable in city. Replace spear militia.
    Bogimennr: early period, recruitable in city. Replace peasant levy archer.
    Lanvarnarmenn: late period , recruitable in city. Replace urban spear militia.
    Lasboga Landvarnarmenn: late period, recruitable in city. Crossbow militia.
    Sverdstafs Landvarnarmenn: late period, recruitable in city. Polearm militia (equipped with atgeir or similar)

    Professional Units
    Drengjar: early period, recruitable in castle. Available as mercenary unit.
    Lidmenn (Lišsmenn): Professional spearmen, recruitable in castle (not sure about that unit). Available as mercenary unit.
    Svenner or Vępnere: light cavalry. Recruitable in castle from 1200, low availability.
    Atgeimenn: Late era, recruitable in castle. Equivalent to Sergeant (equipped with atgeir, polearm, spear axe? etc…)

    Special
    Gestir: early era, recruitable in city (note: “uniform” and banner in black). Available as mercenary unit.
    Gestahg: Superior unit, early era, recruitable in castle (equipped with kite shield and sword, upgrade with heather shield). Not sure to use it for complete unit but probably as officer model for Gestirs.
    Veidimenn (Veišimenn): Professional archers, recruitable in castle.

    Retinue
    Hirdsmenn: early bodyguard and then becoming recruitable unit in castle.
    Hofudvordr (Retinue): Late bodyguard unit (after 1350). Heavily armoured dismounted unit, fighting with 1 handed mace + shield or war hammer or short halberg (not sure about weapon type).

    Feudal Nobles
    Riddere: Late era, knights, low availability, reruitable in castle after 1250-1270.
    Skutilsveinr Footmen: Early era, recruitable in castle. Infantry swordsmen.
    Huskalar (or Hśskalar): Early era, available until 1250 AD, recruitable in city.


    DENMARK

    Same as above but without Atgeirmenn, Veidimenn and Gestahg, specific to Norway.

    Late bodyguard unit should be mounted like other Western European factions. Possibly early bodyguards as well.
    Cavalry units with more availability compare to Norway. Some Western Feudal units available but with lower availability compare to other Western factions.

    Knęgter: Men-at-arms, late era, recruitable in city or castle (not sure). Low availability. Specific to Denmark.
    Korsfarere: Elite noble knights, many Johanites (Knights of Saint John) veterans from holy wars in the Baltic regions. Specific to Denmark. May be subject to St John Chapter House building.
    Korsfarere footmenn: Equivalent to militia Landvarnarmenn, but these are veterans of pagan’s war. Specific to Denmark. May be subject to St John Chapter House building.
    Good morning sship team, exist some work about scandinavian new unit roster? Or maybe some historical mod that can borrow you their units?
    I know that kostic is working hard in new units models, and also other modder about georgian units but i dont know as help for improve the scandinavian unit roster for next version
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    THE LESS YOU BLEED IN BATTLE!!!



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  19. #59
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    Great mod. One of my favorites at this point. I read a few comments in another thread, but I thought I'd make a comment here.

    IV. Faction specific features
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    What would be interesting to know is where the factions tried to expand during the 12th-13th centuries. From what I could find, they didn't expand much but there were quite a lot of "internal" disputes. If right then the 1st option above seems the best even if not real.
    For Norway, definitely westward at this point. Both historically for the people at the time, but also relevant for the next 150-200 years. I can see how some people might think the Kalmar Union is a decent option as a historical Norwegian goal, but you have to remember that Kalmar Union consisted of Norway being a backwater province for 400 years++. Even two centuries leading up to Kingdom of Denmark and Norway has been largely ignored by Norwegian historians. Why? lmao. It's like an African faction in Empire Total War trying to form the British Empire. It's a Danish power fantasy, that Sweden heroically fought tooth and nail to avoid. Anyways, don't let me stop you. If people in general are happy with this then I'm happy. I just wish the focus was elsewhere.

    ~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  20. #60
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: SCANDINAVIA (Denmark & Norway)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    For Norway, definitely westward at this point. Both historically for the people at the time, but also relevant for the next 150-200 years. I can see how some people might think the Kalmar Union is a decent option as a historical Norwegian goal, but you have to remember that Kalmar Union consisted of Norway being a backwater province for 400 years++.
    The AI in the SSHIP is able to expand westwards, as shown here:



    -----------------

    Besides, in the next version Norway will have a little script related to the Islanders:

    {NORWAY20_ISLAND_TRIBUTE_BODY}The citizens of Island have sent you a gift - or rather a tribute - of ivory, worth 1000 florins.\n\nHISTORICAL BACKGROUND: From the 9-10th centuries Island was populated by the immigrants from Scandinavia. They owed allegiance to the Norwegian king and paid him tribute in kind. The most eagerly sought merchandise coming from the North was ivory from Greenland, mainly tusk of walrus. It was a very valuable commodity in the continental Europe, easily sold to the nobles.
    {NORWAY20_ISLAND_TRIBUTE_TITLE}Ivory from Island!
    if not I_IsFactionAIControlled norway and I_SettlementOwner Bergen = norway
    log -------------------- Norway evolution: (20) Ivory from Island ----------------------------------------
    set_event_counter continue 0
    inc_event_counter norway20_island_tribute_player 1 ; they kill walruses and gather ivory
    if I_EventCounter FL_policy_merchant_skills > 0 ; the FL is good at asking for moeny
    inc_event_counter norway20_island_tribute_player 1
    end_if
    if I_EventCounter FL_is_senile > 0 ; the FL forgets about the North
    inc_event_counter norway20_island_tribute_player -1
    end_if
    if I_EventCounter norway20_island_tribute_player > 20 ; they are able to pay (every 10 years)
    and RandomPercent < 10
    set_event_counter continue 1 ; ok, we'll pay
    end_if
    if I_EventCounter FL_player_is_new_this_turn > 0 ; they want to pay homage to the new king
    set_event_counter continue 1
    end_if
    if I_EventCounter continue = 1
    set_event_counter continue 0
    historic_event NORWAY20_ISLAND_TRIBUTE factions { hre, france, england, scotland, norway, denmark, poland, hungary, russia, }
    console_command add_money norway, 1000
    if not I_IsFactionAIControlled norway
    set_event_counter norway20_island_tribute_player 0
    end_if
    end_if
    end_if

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