I. General information
This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.
I. General information
This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 04, 2020 at 07:41 AM.
III. Provinces
Provinces that have historically been associated with this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file. However, some may be in another faction's thread - due to historical or purely technical reasons.
Denmark in 12-13 century:
Provincial titles:
General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
Catholic: "Jarl i" + name of the province. That's pretty simple once you've got the proper names of the provinces.
Orthodox: generic English: “Knyaz” + name + "skyi"
Muslim: generic "Emir".
Names of provinces: in old Norse, actually quite well researched by Elgrimr.
Coats of arms: haven't been reviewed yet, but in the thread - yes.
Old Norse letters are used in the titles. You should read them as follows:
Ţ/ţ = hard '"th" sound like in "thin"
Đ/đ = soft "th" sound like in "then"
Ó/ó = "o" sound like in "tool"
Ǫ/ǫ = "o" sound like in "coffee"
Í/í = "e" sound like in "feet"
Jarl í Borgarţingslǫg
Jarl í Gulaţingslǫg
Jarl í Vestrgautland
Jarl í Svíţjóđ
Jarl í Smáland
Jarl í Gutland
Jarl í Skáney
Jarl í Sjáland
Jarl í Jótland
Second thoughts of Eldgrimr:
Borgarţingslog
Gulaţingslog
Vestrgautland = Gřtland
Skáney = Skane
Sjáland = Sialand
Jótland = Iutland
Smáland = Smaland
Gutland = same
Svíţjóđ = Swerike
Turku (Finland)
PT: Jarl í Austrland. Starting in 13 century it was the sphere of the influence of the Scandinavians for 400 years so this is legitimate to use "jarl" for the catholic faction.
CoA:
Settlement name: Turku/Turku/Ĺbo. After the Scandinavian conquest of 2nd part of 13th century Abo's been a correct name. The script changing the name has been added in SSHIP 097 making the name dependent on the faction that conquers it (Abo for the Catholics except for Poland).
Province name: Finland. Austrland would be more historical given that Finland was a name given to a small area, and perhaps only in 15th century became the name of the current province. On the other hand, since this region can also fall into Ruthenian or Lithuanian hands, we can leave Finland.
Resources: very few: furs. (097: ok)
Fertility: 0. To far to the north, deep forests, swampy or frozen ground.
Some interesting information might be found here.
In 1132 this should be one of the least developed and least populated provinces on the map.
Ribe (Ribe, Ribe_Province)
PT: Jarl í Jótland (xx).
CoA:
Settlement name: Ribe. Perfect.
Province name:
Resources: ...
Fertility: 1. To far to the north.
It would be nice to represent somehow the Stones of Jelling - adding authority?
Sigtuna (Sigtuna, Jarl í Svíţjóđ)
PT: Jarl Jarl í Svíţjóđ(xx).
CoA:
Settlement name:
Resources: nothing but tolls.
Fertility: 0. To far to the north.
Kalmar (x, xxx)
PT: Jarl í Smáland(xx).
CoA:
Settlement name:
Resources: x.
Fertility: 1.
Skara (x, xxx)
PT: Jarl í ).
CoA:
Settlement name: Should move to Elfsborg in the late era.
Resources: x.
Fertility: 1.
Visby (Visby, xxx)
PT: Jarl í Gotland (xx).
CoA:
Settlement name:
Resources: nothing but tolls.
Fertility: 0. To far to the north.
Visby was the centre of the Baltic trade in 12-13th centuries, and a trading centre of the Viking trade to the east in the centuries before. It deserves to have a Baltic trade building from the very beginning. More to be read about Visby here (UNESCO), and here. I've got doubts about some part there, eg. reasons of the demise in the late Middle Ages (as a matter of fact, they were economic, not Black Death).
Bergvin (Bergen, Bergen_Province)
PT: Jarl í Gulathingslog.
CoA:
Settlement name: Bergvin.
Resources: x.
Fertility: 0.
Ánslo(Oslo, Oslo_Province)
PT: Jarl í Borgarthingslog.
CoA:
Settlement name: Ánslo.Resources: x.
Fertility: 0.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 13, 2022 at 03:56 AM.
IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)
The Crown of Scandinavia is discussed in this entry.
(once finished and implemented, it might be copied here as well)
The Offices are described in this thread.
Denmark & Norway has access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction: Castle Library, University (highest level), Tourney Fields.
(note: this might be important for getting certain traits).
A unique building in Sigtuna:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Danish Blood: not checked.
Norwegian Blood: not checked.
Specific traits: not checked.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 12, 2022 at 10:08 AM.
V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)
Beaware that the Norwegian generals have infantry bodyguard units.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 26, 2020 at 03:05 AM.
VI. Units
Lifthrasir with inputs from Kjertesvein and Ringek:
NORWAY
Militia
Leidangr: early period, recruitable in city. Replace spear militia.
Bogimennr: early period, recruitable in city. Replace peasant levy archer.
Lanvarnarmenn: late period , recruitable in city. Replace urban spear militia.
Lasboga Landvarnarmenn: late period, recruitable in city. Crossbow militia.
Sverdstafs Landvarnarmenn: late period, recruitable in city. Polearm militia (equipped with atgeir or similar)
Professional Units
Drengjar: early period, recruitable in castle. Available as mercenary unit.
Lidmenn (Liđsmenn): Professional spearmen, recruitable in castle (not sure about that unit). Available as mercenary unit.
Svenner or Vćpnere: light cavalry. Recruitable in castle from 1200, low availability.
Atgeimenn: Late era, recruitable in castle. Equivalent to Sergeant (equipped with atgeir, polearm, spear axe? etc…)
Special
Gestir: early era, recruitable in city (note: “uniform” and banner in black). Available as mercenary unit.
Gestahg: Superior unit, early era, recruitable in castle (equipped with kite shield and sword, upgrade with heather shield). Not sure to use it for complete unit but probably as officer model for Gestirs.
Veidimenn (Veiđimenn): Professional archers, recruitable in castle.
Retinue
Hirdsmenn: early bodyguard and then becoming recruitable unit in castle.
Hofudvordr (Retinue): Late bodyguard unit (after 1350). Heavily armoured dismounted unit, fighting with 1 handed mace + shield or war hammer or short halberg (not sure about weapon type).
Feudal Nobles
Riddere: Late era, knights, low availability, reruitable in castle after 1250-1270.
Skutilsveinr Footmen: Early era, recruitable in castle. Infantry swordsmen.
Huskalar (or Húskalar): Early era, available until 1250 AD, recruitable in city.
DENMARK
Same as above but without Atgeirmenn, Veidimenn and Gestahg, specific to Norway.
Late bodyguard unit should be mounted like other Western European factions. Possibly early bodyguards as well.
Cavalry units with more availability compare to Norway. Some Western Feudal units available but with lower availability compare to other Western factions.
Knćgter: Men-at-arms, late era, recruitable in city or castle (not sure). Low availability. Specific to Denmark.
Korsfarere: Elite noble knights, many Johanites (Knights of Saint John) veterans from holy wars in the Baltic regions. Specific to Denmark. May be subject to St John Chapter House building.
Korsfarere footmenn: Equivalent to militia Landvarnarmenn, but these are veterans of pagan’s war. Specific to Denmark. May be subject to St John Chapter House building.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; September 29, 2023 at 01:47 AM.
bergen (norway) should be called Bjřrgvin ---> http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/db541.html
but, as you can see from norwegian wiki, the town has had many different names (just use google translate):
I norsk skrifttradisjon pĺ 1200- og 1300-tallet ble bynavnet gjerne skrevet Biorgvin og senere formene Bjargvin, Bjćrgvin, Bergvin og med latinisert skrivemĺte Biargina, Berginum, Bergć (Bergensis i adjektivform). Pĺ 1300-tallet ble trolig ogsĺ formen Bergon brukt i lokal uttale. Skrivemĺten Berghon finnes i et brev fra 1404. Formene Berwen, Berwen, Beren og Bern finnes ogsĺ i skriftlige kilder fra middelalderen. Gĺrdsnavnet Břrve i Hardanger har trolig samme opphav og Břrve ble tidligere skrevet Berven. I et par originalbrev fra 1349 finnes ogsĺ formen Biřrgvin og i en avskrift fra 1343 Biřrvin.
My previous work on these rosters based on my researches and inputs from Kjertesvein and Ringek:
NORWAY :
Militia:
Leidangr: early period, recruitable in city. Replace spear militia.
Bogimennr: early period, recruitable in city. Replace peasant levy archer.
Lanvarnarmenn: late period , recruitable in city. Replace urban spear militia.
Lasboga Landvarnarmenn: late period, recruitable in city. Crossbow militia.
Sverdstafs Landvarnarmenn: late period, recruitable in city. Polearm militia (equipped with atgeir or similar)
Professional Units:
Drengjar: early period, recruitable in castle. Available as mercenary unit.
Lidmenn (Liđsmenn): Professional spearmen, recruitable in castle (not sure about that unit). Available as mercenary unit.
Svenner or Vćpnere: light cavalry. Recruitable in castle from 1200, low availability.
Atgeimenn: Late era, recruitable in castle. Equivalent to Sergeant (equipped with atgeir, polearm, spear axe? etc…)
Special
Gestir: early era, recruitable in city (note: “uniform” and banner in black). Available as mercenary unit.
Gestahg: Superior unit, early era, recruitable in castle (equipped with kite shield and sword, upgrade with heather shield). Not sure to use it for complete unit but probably as officer model for Gestirs.
Veidimenn (Veiđimenn): Professional archers, recruitable in castle.
Retinue:
Hirdsmenn: early bodyguard and then becoming recruitable unit in castle.
Hofudvordr (Retinue): Late bodyguard unit (after 1350). Heavily armoured dismounted unit, fighting with 1 handed mace + shield or war hammer or short halberg (not sure about weapon type).
Feudal Nobles:
Riddere: Late era, knights, low availability, reruitable in castle after 1250-1270.
Skutilsveinr Footmen: Early era, recruitable in castle. Infantry swordsmen.
Huskalar (or Húskalar): Early era, available until 1250 AD, recruitable in city.
DENMARK:
Same as above but without Atgeirmenn, Veidimenn and Gestahg, specific to Norway.
Late bodyguard unit should be mounted like other Western European factions. Possibly early bodyguards as well.
Cavalry units with more availability compare to Norway. Some Western Feudal units available but with lower availability compare to other Western factions.
Knćgter: Men-at-arms, late era, recruitable in city or castle (not sure). Low availability. Specific to Denmark.
Korsfarere: Elite noble knights, many Johanites (Knights of Saint John) veterans from holy wars in the Baltic regions. Specific to Denmark. May be subject to St John Chapter House building.
Korsfarere footmenn: Equivalent to militia Landvarnarmenn, but these are veterans of pagan’s war. Specific to Denmark. May be subject to St John Chapter House building.
It still needs to be polished a bit but I think that the main lines are there
Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 17, 2020 at 05:40 AM.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Inputs from King Athelstan about the above:
@ JoC, what's in the spoiler may interest you for the titlesOriginally Posted by King Athelstan
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Always happy to help
Proudly under the patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader
Proud patron of 4zumi, Akar, CommodusIV ,Swaeft and Peaman
My part with Denmark (VH/VH difficult):
On turn 68, I must admit my defeat, even if I still have two communities and a young king of 27 years, the Kong Mikkel.
My first mistake was to marry the departing princess instead of using her as a diplomat, because after more than 65 laps, I did not have the opportunity to build a building to recruit a diplomat. Without a diplomat, my relations with my neighbors gradually deteriorated until three factions joined simultaneously against mine.
After a first failure towards the west to capture the Danish peninsula, I turned towards the east and the communities which border the Baltic Sea. I took Kalmar, then on the other side, Stetin and the Pomeranian, the island of Visby, then the community of Sigtuna. Norway's first attempts at my main town of Lund had failed and they had signed a peace treaty.
Then the Holy Empire made peace with Poland, which began by launching attacks against Stetin. Norway, then the Holy Empire decided to declare war on me one after the other. I ended up losing Stetin despite heroic resistance, but the most worrying was the repeated attacks by large armies of the Holy Empire against my capital Roskilde ...
But the holy empire was not satisfied to send armies to me: at least three assassins roamed around my capital without that I can recruit one to defend myself, for lack of having had time to build the building which recruits.
It was a disaster: the assassins killed 4 of my generals including 3 members of the royal family, heir included !
An assassin went to the far east of my territory to kill my best general in the town of Sigtuna.
My king was alone against the armies of the empire and was killed defending his capital.
So it was the end. The Norwegians threw themselves on Lund and Sigtuna, two cities whose leaders were assassinated and conquered them without great difficulty, especially Sigtuna, because I had previously evacuated my few remaining soldiers to Kalmar after having destroyed all that counted the city of value .
This is where I am now:
Conclusion:
1- Without a diplomat, Denmark has a big disadvantage from the start. It is especially important not to marry the princess who is the only one who can tie alliances.
2- The king of Denmark and his generals do not have knights at the start of the game while the rebel city of the peninsula has them. That explains my failure to the west. Replacing the Hirdsmen on foot with bodyguards on horseback should be fixed in the next version for Denmark.
3- This is the first time that the AI has managed to destroy my faction thanks to its assassins. I don't know if it's a good thing but it adds an interesting challenge. It is essential to be able to quickly guard against their attacks by recruiting assassins in defense. Unfortunately, the poor development of Denmark did not leave me time to build the necessary buildings, neither to recruit diplomats, nor to recruit assassins.
Last edited by kostic; April 24, 2020 at 03:18 PM.
This is an impressive report, Kostic!
ad. 1 - Following modding of the Merchants (where there's one merchant from capital, and the other sources), I'm going to give any faction ability to recruit a Diplomat from it's capital irrespectively from whether it's a city or a town. Being restricted in the way you've just described it utterly unhistorical.
ad. 3. - Indeed, the AI seems to be very good with the assassins. We need to have a closer look. I think you've noticed that some traits and ancillaries lower Personal Security of the generals - this may also have helped the AI to kill your generals.
That was MWY who decided to remove diplomats from small factions. I never understood why
I have no problem to give a diplomat or a princess to each faction at the start.
Agree about the Danish BG. They should be mounted. In the current game, only Norway should have dismounted BG and only until sometimes during the 13th century (if my memory serves me well. They should also have a bonus vs cavalry imo.
The basic protection against assassins is spies. Put a spy in each settlement with an important family member and you should be safe. Beside, you can recruit a couple of assassins to kill the AI's one for the "cleaning". I've never had any trouble that way
Edit: on a side note, giving the Hanseatic League to Visby right at the start seems a bit early. I might be wrong but I can't see it in Visby before at least 25-30 years later.
Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 25, 2020 at 12:30 PM.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
In my opinion it's actually the only moment it should have this guild. In 13th century the kogge technology developed so much that Visby lost in (comparative) importance. The merchants would simply omit the unnecessary intermediary. The big time for Visby it was the 12th century. They dominated the Baltic sea in this century, we see the many coins from this period as well.
If you want to be strict, the Hanseatic league should be introduced in 1356 - it was the first Hansetag.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 25, 2020 at 01:32 PM.
I'm considering the early beginning of that guild in 1158 when Henri III, Duke of Bavaria and Saxony, took Lubeck. I can't find a precise date but it seems that Visby became an important trade center for the German merchands soon after, allowing them to expand up to Novgorod. So, yes, agree to make Visby important during the 12th century with such a guild but not at the start in 1132.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
Why 1158 would be the begining of the guild? What actually has changed? It was still many years Lubeck had to compete with Schlezwig and with the other merchants. And during a few decades the Visby merchants dictated the commercial situation in the Baltic.
If you find somebody who will write a script giving this guild to Visby, we may include it instead of put it at the begining.
From Encyclopaedia Britannica:
From newworldencyclopedia:After its capture by Henry III (the Lion) in 1158, Lübeck became the main base for Westphalian and Saxon merchants expanding northward and eastward. Visby, on the Swedish island of Gotland, was soon established as a major transshipment centre for trade in the Baltic and with Novgorod (now Veliky Novgorod), which was the chief mart for the Russian trade. From Visby, German merchants helped establish important towns on the east coast of the Baltic: Riga, Reval (now Tallinn), Danzig (now Gdańsk), and Dorpat (now Tartu). Thus, by the early 13th century Germans had a near monopoly of long-distance trade in the Baltic.
Should I continue?Lübeck became a base for merchants from Saxony and Westphalia to spread east and north. Well before the term Hanse appeared in a document (1267), merchants in a given city began to form guilds or Hansa with the intention of trading with towns overseas, especially in the less-developed eastern Baltic area, a source of timber, wax, amber, resins, furs, even rye and wheat brought down on barges from the hinterland to port markets.
Visby functioned as the leading centre in the Baltic before the Hansa. For 100 years the Germans sailed under the Gotlandic flag to Novgorod. Sailing east, Visby merchants established a branch at Novgorod. To begin with the Germans used the Gotlandic Gutagard. With the influx of too many merchants the Gotlanders arranged their own trading stations for the German Petershof further up from the river—see a translation of the grant[4] of privileges to merchants in 1229. Before the foundation of the Hanseatic league in 1358 the word Hanse did not occur in the Baltic. The Gotlanders used the word varjag.
Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader
No need.
Shouldn't Bergen be put as Norway's capital? Oslo was capital after Bergen, around the XIV century or so