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Thread: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (01.27.2020)

  1. #41
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    After I clicked on the download button on the mediafire page, suddenly I got a loud persistent noise. First I thought there was a problem with my speakers, I toned them down and downloaded the pack file. Then, after closing the mediafire page, I saw a message window in the background with the warning that my system is corrupted and files will be deleted, etc. The fake message window could simply be deactivated, however it was not very funny. Did anybody have a similar experience?
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  2. #42
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    WIP of stuff that is being worked on...introducing famous ancient horses! This info will work in similar way as Stamina button, meaning it does not do anything itself but tells the player more about specific unit. While there were many types of horses used in ancient times, some stood out more than the others. This panel will allow players to distinguish them better and learn a thing or two. Unique horses will come with either special attributes like Numidians ignoring terrain penalties or stat buffs like Thessalians being nearly as fast as light cavalry but with charge force of heavy cavalry.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
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  3. #43

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Already said on the discord but this is so damn cool, Kam, awesome work
    also yeah I never feel 100% safe downloading from mediafire, thanks for the tip

  4. #44

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    This is very cool Kam! Thank you so much for your amazing work man! i wish i could say more, but english is not my native language and for that i can only send you compliments.

  5. #45

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Speaking of cavalry, how you all guys doing with the very heavy cavalry? I am into an Armenian campaign and just had the other day a bosporan hoplite run down my cataphracts. Granted they were tired, but so were the hoplites; I lost a few of them and then had to cross half the map in order to gain some distance. I have to play a bit more with it, but right now my subjective feeling is that they are a bit too slow; I'd be fine with fast skirmishers running down tired catas, but hoplites (normal, not light!) is a bit too much. Perhaps a bump of speed from 5 to 6 might be worth considering.

    And another issue - when killing off routed units with light cavalry, I tend to suffer a lot of casualties if the fleeing enemy is a spear unit. I had a couple of instance where my skirmisher cavalry went from yellow to red to fleeing the battlefield themselves. It is less pronounced against sword units, so I suspect the bonus vs cav is at play here.

    @KAM - awesome, looking forward to seeing the Niseans perform against Roma, when the time comes.
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  6. #46
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    I will check it out, although even at exhausted phase, cataphracts with speed of 5 should still have 2.5 speed, which is more than hoplites have when fresh. What I think has happened was that they triggered a charge, which increases their speed although I am surprised that AI turned of phalanx for it, unless they were Ekdromoi?

    Granted, I do want people to pay more attention to fatigue as you need to be smarter with fatigue management. Other thing is that once I will add in more horse types, some of slower units might benefit more. For example Nisean cataphracts will have 6 speed, compared to other cataphracts with 5 speed while Armienan cataphracts, due to having smaller but more agile Karabakh horses, will still have 5 speed but much higher acceleration (so they gain top speed faster) and turning speed.

    As for light cav, or any cav to be specific, chasing spear units, that is base game bug. Basically CA made "expert charge defence" attribute to work in all directions, even if unit is moving. I dont like how it works in TW games anyway as insted of increasing defence, mass and maybe damage of braced unit, it just reflects back charge bonus into charging unit. I have few ideas I want to test about some unit mass related stuff so maybe this will not be as noticeable.
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  7. #47

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    It was a regular bosporan hoplite, not one of the Ekdromoi. I checked the speed and it showed 5 for the Catas and 2 for the hoplites; the Catas were tired, not exhausted yet and the hoplites had been moving all this time as well. I don't think it was a charge animation, since they pursued me for a considerable distance, caught up to me once and killed a bunch while I extracted from melee and then I ran away again staying like two paces before them for another quarter of the battle map length (I also use the enlarged battle maps submod). I noticed them being sluggish in other battles as well, their "run" speed while still fresh was definitely slow (as in infantry-like slow), only the charge speed was decent. The Azat Aspets, with speed 6, handle a lot better, without feeling too fast; maybe something in the middle between both speeds would work well?

    That's too bad about the base game bug, I guess I'll have to rely on the Azats for chasing down broken phalanxes/spearmen.
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  8. #48
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Hey KAM, been awhile since I last got in touch.

    I‘ve an idea for Wedge formation, would it be possible to make a unit temporarily scary?
    Also, since wedge was also used to increase a cavalry unit‘s responsiveness to its lead rider, maybe increase acceleration and top speed since it increases the space available per horseman.

    Concerning the block formation, I gather that it wasn‘t better for charging, since a horse won‘t ride into a wall of flesh, wood and metal anyway. AFAIK the lack of diamond or wedge formations in later cavalry was rather due to a lack of necessary training and the skill getting „lost“ so to speak.
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  9. #49
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    You can't add dynamic attributes in this game, you can do that defo in 3K, maybe in Warhammer too but not here.

    Of course you can also add effect to formation that just reduces morale of all enemy units in some designated radious but it would also mean that they just standing around or already being tied in melee apply it.

    Acceleration and top speed are being a part of it already as flying wedge increases it (while at the same time it has hardcoded speed debuff not present in UI). Other issue is that if you give wedge to units, AI will ONLY use it, for walking, melee and it bugs out when AI disengages from melee as for some reason instead of running, it walks, often in weird direction like into other player unit. When AI disengages without wedge it properly orders unit to run and into correct direction.

    At the momeny idea I would like to try is to make wedge be limited by time it is on and for it to have a recharge time. That way I could both add better formation penetration and scare without making it easy to abuse.

    Horses will charge into wall of people, you can train that to do that as it was done, for example this is only way scytched chariots were used. Main issue is that people have wrong idea how mouned combat works due to movies and stuff as last thing you want to do is to ram your horse into people, you want to ride next to your target so you can hit them with your weapon. Charging your horse into a mass of people would most likely end with your mount getting crippled and cause injury to following ranks behind you when they also hit your first rank, adding to horse injuries. To be realistic, cav would engage in block formation if not aiming for gaps or slow down to engage in sort of hit and run combat around infantry front and flanks, other way is to slow down but press your horeses into infantry/cavalry ranks to push them back while also attacking with melee weapon, hoping for formation to break cohesion. Similar rule applies to real cav vs cav combat, as riders would slow down or try to ride next to each other rather than hit horse into horse at full speed, which would end badly for both parties.

    There are some neat Byzantine military manuals that describe how cataphract charge should work. If enemy infantry will not run show any signs of breaking or disorder before cavalry closes in, wedge will engage them at a trot, preferably aiming at commander of enemy unit, this allows horsemen to keep order among own ranks but big enough speed to push enemy back due to weight. Full speed would only be used to engage already routing enemy or if their formation was really messed up. Of course this comes from VI-X century manuals but we dont have really good descriptions for earlier times. For example at Magnesia, Antiochus cataphracts routed Roman flank which included cavalry and large body of infantry but it is not clear if infantry routed due to charge or because they saw their own cav getting routed.

    Sadly, most ancient descriptions involving cavalry come down to like "they charged them with their superior numbers, enemy fled" or "they engaged enemy but Biggus Diccus flanked them so they routed". Maybe there are some hidden gems, like there are maybe 4 accounted uses of scytched chariots but we have very graphic description of it by Appian "At the same time the scythe-bearing chariots made a charge on the Bithynians, cutting some of them in two, and tearing others to pieces.The army of Nicomedes was terrified at seeing men cut in halves and still breathing, or mangled in fragments and their parts hanging on the scythes. Overcome rather by the hideousness of the spectacle than by loss of the fight, fear took possession of their ranks."
    Last edited by KAM 2150; January 18, 2020 at 05:32 PM.
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  10. #50
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Horses will charge into wall of people, you can train that to do that as it was done, for example this is only way scytched chariots were used. Main issue is that people have wrong idea how mouned combat works due to movies and stuff as last thing you want to do is to ram your horse into people, you want to ride next to your target so you can hit them with your weapon. Charging your horse into a mass of people would most likely end with your mount getting crippled and cause injury to following ranks behind you when they also hit your first rank, adding to horse injuries. To be realistic, cav would engage in block formation if not aiming for gaps or slow down to engage in sort of hit and run combat around infantry front and flanks, other way is to slow down but press your horeses into infantry/cavalry ranks to push them back while also attacking with melee weapon, hoping for formation to break cohesion. Similar rule applies to real cav vs cav combat, as riders would slow down or try to ride next to each other rather than hit horse into horse at full speed, which would end badly for both parties.

    There are some neat Byzantine military manuals that describe how cataphract charge should work. If enemy infantry will not run show any signs of breaking or disorder before cavalry closes in, wedge will engage them at a trot, preferably aiming at commander of enemy unit, this allows horsemen to keep order among own ranks but big enough speed to push enemy back due to weight. Full speed would only be used to engage already routing enemy or if their formation was really messed up. Of course this comes from VI-X century manuals but we dont have really good descriptions for earlier times. For example at Magnesia, Antiochus cataphracts routed Roman flank which included cavalry and large body of infantry but it is not clear if infantry routed due to charge or because they saw their own cav getting routed.

    Sadly, most ancient descriptions involving cavalry come down to like "they charged them with their superior numbers, enemy fled" or "they engaged enemy but Biggus Diccus flanked them so they routed". Maybe there are some hidden gems, like there are maybe 4 accounted uses of scytched chariots but we have very graphic description of it by Appian "At the same time the scythe-bearing chariots made a charge on the Bithynians, cutting some of them in two, and tearing others to pieces.The army of Nicomedes was terrified at seeing men cut in halves and still breathing, or mangled in fragments and their parts hanging on the scythes. Overcome rather by the hideousness of the spectacle than by loss of the fight, fear took possession of their ranks."
    Nice, haven´t really gone into that much detail concerning Byzantine manuals, I was always more interested in the infantry section.
    But in essence we agree, no horse would ride full stretch into an intact enemy formation.

    Or at least I am not aware of there being any manuals or direct descriptions of such an action.
    The only occasion I recall is during the Napoleonic Wars, when a horse was shot in the head right before crashing into a infantry-square.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Does this work with the alternative hoplite phalanx mod where it's just a flat bonus? I cannot play without that mod now, given how wonky the vanilla hoplite phalanx is. It looks really cool!

    And I apologize if this would already be answered, but is it save compatible?

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  12. #52

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Yes it’s save compatible. I’m not certain on compatibility with the alternative phalanx submods, but I *think* I recall KAM saying that they were not compatible. Generally speaking, submods that affect combat will not be compatible, all other submods will do. Make sure that submods which affect economy (AE, Realism, etc) load before the battle pack.

  13. #53
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiochos VII Sidetes View Post
    Does this work with the alternative hoplite phalanx mod where it's just a flat bonus? I cannot play without that mod now, given how wonky the vanilla hoplite phalanx is. It looks really cool!

    And I apologize if this would already be answered, but is it save compatible?
    They are not compatbile as they include same tables.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    Nice, haven´t really gone into that much detail concerning Byzantine manuals, I was always more interested in the infantry section.
    But in essence we agree, no horse would ride full stretch into an intact enemy formation.

    Or at least I am not aware of there being any manuals or direct descriptions of such an action.
    The only occasion I recall is during the Napoleonic Wars, when a horse was shot in the head right before crashing into a infantry-square.
    I don't fully agree as some horses will ride into body of infantry if you train them for that but like I said, danger to horse and rider is too great for that to be used as a valid deal. You need a decent warhorse, which costs a ton and rider is mostly likely a noble, both things are too precious to be wasted on such manouver. Contrary to movies, charge impact relies on weapon of rirder and not horse hitting body of man. Hence in Byzantine manuals, cataphracts WOULD ride into infantry by at a trot and just try to break enemy formation with rather minimal danger of clash. Or in case of scytched chariots, their only use was to hit directly into enemy units. There is one neat usage of them by Persians against troops of Agesilaos II. Persians had 2 chariots and small body of cavalry when they noticed bigger, but still small Spartan force, which formed a line when they noticed cavalry. Persians then rode they chariots in short distance in front of their cav, chariots smashed into infantry, creating gaps and cavalry charged into these gaps, which caused a rout.

    But going back to what I said, you can charge braced infantry but no the way it is shown in the movies, if riders would not decide to smash into enemy ranks, they would use their weapons to strike enemies at a distance and preferably circle around or in front of enemy, trying to create a gap to ride into and break formation, you could repeat that, lowering potential losses on your end.

    Best example of cavlary charges into braced infantry is tactical use of Winged Hussars, which had a charge into braced infnatry as part of their basic use, eventhough braced infantry mostly meant pike squares in this era. But the tactic was not about ramming your horse into pikes but to use your 5m-6m lance and it was often noted be able to impale few people on it during charge (sources claim that record is 6 people during battle of Plonka but commander, author of the source, said he only heard it from other guy, so probably someone was just bragging). That extra reach (as the braced pike has shorter reach as you hold if further down the pole) allowed hussars to break pikes or other infantry with frontal charges with minimal losses, if needed they would charge multiple times, just going back for new lances, until enemy would not be able to hold last one. Repeated charges were to reducde casualties since charge was safer than being bogged down in a melee.
    At Klushino, part of Swedish infantry took a cover behind a wooden fence, when hussars charged them, few spurred their horses to ran faster and just rammed and broke down the fence with their mounts.
    In case of lance, there are no good depictions of them in any movies or game I have seen so far, until you see a proper drawing like below

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    So long story short, ramming a horse into infantry at full speed is doable, if you have a well trained and very expensive warhorse, it is just really, really not worth it as it will end with death of the horse and most likely the rider too, even if were not impaled by any weapon in the process.

    Just one thing to note, I am not saying that charging horses into braced infantry is a valid tactic for ancient cavalry but just wanted to note it is possible.
    Last edited by KAM 2150; January 20, 2020 at 04:57 PM.
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  14. #54

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Right, didn’t the lack or stirrup and the smaller horse size of antiquity preclude that tactic in our era? For example, the kontos was held with two hands rather than the medieval lance held with one. This, and the fact that the rider wasn’t braced, means that the effective length of the lance was shorter. Though I suppose it was still vastly longer than the pila (or gladius), but certainly not longer than the sarissa. Also, I had been under the impression that the success of the winged hussars was their discipline. In a game of chicken where the goal of the cavalry charge was to psyc the front line of infantry to fall back, a charge that was carried through would usually win... unless it didn’t. Is that not accurate?

  15. #55

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Contrary to movies, charge impact relies on weapon of rirder and not horse hitting body of man.
    Not always true. In 17-19 century Europe many armies had heavy cavalry without pikes - cuirassiers and analogs.
    After cavalry reform of Gustav Adolf, heavy cavalry in very tight formation ramming into infantry lines became a popular and viable tactic - it was used even after napoleonic era.
    And they used horses for impact, riders had swords or sabres, but used them after initial brealthrough.

  16. #56

    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Sorry, not Gustav 2 Adolf - they relied on pistol salvo before melee at the time. It was reform of Frederick 2 the Great.

  17. #57
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyt View Post
    Sorry, not Gustav 2 Adolf - they relied on pistol salvo before melee at the time. It was reform of Frederick 2 the Great.
    Hmm, that's interesting, I didn't know. The Prussian cavalry of 18th century used impact charge as a tactics?

    It's true though that Gustav Adolf cav would use pistol salvos. But the Polish cavalry of 17th century (the Husaria) would use the impact charge

  18. #58
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    I am well aware of cuirassiers but they did not work as you described them. Initially, western cav used caracole, which was pistole heavy tactic. After ecounters with Polish cavalry, Swedish army reformed their own cav to focus on cold steel charges rather than firepower. Difference is that they were not used to charge braced pike blocks, especially later Napoleonic and post Napoleonic cavalry. At that time pikes regiments got smaller until ceased to exist and sometimes musketeers had only butt of their musket to defend themselves. Sure, when they charged into musketeurs that did not had a cover of pikes, they would most likely waver and and run away when cavalry got near them. Our main topic here is charge of cavalry against a typical "melee" infantry in deep formation.

    This is especially true to Napoleonic warfare, where there are no examples (at least to my knowledge), where square was routed by a charge. There was a case at Alubuera, but there horse got shot dead and it clashed into infantry, creating a gap. At Quatre Bras infantry rout is sometimes credited to be a case of broken infantry square but it was due to flanking manouver and either there was no suqare or it got caught while it was being formed. I've read some book with very obscure reference to Battle of Hof (1809), which I can't find in English but the roughly it was not due a charge but cuirassiers engaging square in melee and trying to push horses through by sheer mass (just like in that Byzantine manual I referenced above). In case of Napoleonic Wars, main issue with engaging squares was that horses would try to ride around them, as they werent that wide, while infantry tried to shot down cavalry at point blank range.


    Still like I said above, the problem is not that horses would never charge into block of infantry, as they are capable to do that if horse is trained enough but rather the "cost" of said manouver is not worth it. After all, horse belongs to rider, proper warhorse was very expensive and if campaign was long, you would probably lose few horses in the process anyway BUT after a point, you would run out of horses or only have a lower quality one. There also comes a price of own life since you could also be a victim of the impact.

    To end the topic, it all depends on situation, infantry line can be braced and disciplined but very thin or lucky event, like dying horse that crashes into people, can turn the whole charge around.

    As a sidenote, I should have new patch released this weekend with more tweaks.
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  19. #59
    Miles
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    Hi Kam just a couple of possible inconsistencies with roman units:
    1)repel cavalry formation have been removed from most units which previously had it, except for the camillian roster.
    2)camillian triarii do not have the disciplined formation while camillian pedites extraordinarii do.
    3)also some of artillery pieces units lack the standard fatigue ability.

  20. #60
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental Battle Pack] - Episode IV - A New Hope (12.23.2019)

    1. I had to do it since now AI is able to use formations too...but at the same time I can't have more than 1 that AI is able to use or they will glitch :/
    2. Both camillian triarii should only have phalanx, I have that one already fixed for next patch.
    3. That I will eventually fix too.
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