The latest complain about Turkey thread (get your daily Turkish delight of bad publicity here)!

[Nebaki]

He's got plenty of valid points.

Tell us more of the so-called "valid points" enlight us please ioannis76.

And I am asking anyone here to tell me what gives Turkey the right to claim that islands do not generate an EEZ, when the opposite is true according to the Law of the Sea. Yet no answer seems to be coming.

Just watch what your Grandpa Ioannis is saying about it.

[PointOfViewGun]

We have gone over the topic of islands having an EEZ repeteadly. ioannis76, you have been a part of those conversations a countless times. You know very well that islands do not have the absolute EEZ that Greece champions for as it violates the equity concept of the UNCLOS. We have discussed real world cases where EEZ disputes stemming from islands were resolved with the islands getting much less EEZ than they initially claimed for. Turkey's position is also that islands do not generate EEZ as Turkey has no objection to it when it extends into the high seas. The objection stems from mainland Turkey's (its continental shelf) EEZ trumping the EEZ of islands swimming distance from Turkey.

[ioannis76]

Tell us more of the so-called "valid points" enlight us please ioannis76.





Just watch what your Grandpa Ioannis is saying about it.

He's not my Grandpa, my child. But what is he saying? He is basically accusing the Greek government that it doesn't give the coordinates for our own EEZ, for fear of tensions with Turkey. There is no reason to fear Turkey whatsoever. The Hellenic navy and the Hellenic Air force are vastly superior to their turkish counterparts (we've even seen a recent video of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URZzaMAcdP8 ) whereas the Greek army has demonstrated its capability to block our border for the pro-turkish vasivozouks.

Tell us more of the so-called "valid points" enlight us please ioannis76.

He seems to have a very good grasp of the turkish mentality.

The objection stems from mainland Turkey's (its continental shelf) EEZ trumping the EEZ of islands swimming distance from Turkey.

In the areas where there are turkish coasts opposite the Greek coasts, there are no such claims, and the median line is the border. Again, the Law of the Sea dictates that the islands do generate an EEZ. No equity is violated, as Turkey receives its own EEZ, in areas where we have no islands. And Turkey knows full well that EEZ does not mean territorial water, it merely means the right to exploit fisheries as well as mining in said area. The eastern med does not become "a Greek lake".

[PointOfViewGun]

In the areas where there are turkish coasts opposite the Greek coasts, there are no such claims, and the median line is the border. Again, the Law of the Sea dictates that the islands do generate an EEZ. No equity is violated, as Turkey receives its own EEZ, in areas where we have no islands. And Turkey knows full well that EEZ does not mean territorial water, it merely means the right to exploit fisheries as well as mining in said area. The eastern med does not become "a Greek lake".

Your post doesn't seem to exhibit much knowledge on the issue despite being involved in this conversation so many times. Median line is claimed as the EEZ border as it constitutes the meeting points of continental shelves of Turkey and Greece. Equity is violated as a number of small Greek islands cut off access of millions of Turks living on the Aegean coast to the sea. This idea have been recognized by the international community in various examples that we have discussed before. If it was brought to court I'm 100% sure neither side would get 100% of what they want. In the case of France and Canada, the side with small islands end up getting less than 20% of the EEZ it was claiming. If we apply Greek viewpoint Aegean sea definitely becomes a Greek sea economically.

[Nebaki]

The Hellenic navy and the Hellenic Air force are vastly superior to their turkish counterparts

Hahaha your Navy even don´t have future programm and your Air Force relies on the Aid from USA.

(we've even seen a recent video of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URZzaMAcdP8 ) whereas the Greek army has demonstrated its capability to block our border for the pro-turkish vasivozouks.

Yeah love that under 1Min < Videos from Greek Propaganda Studios to assure to folks like your kind that anything is all good. But maybe you can tell us who that other Fighter was chasing at the moment.

He seems to have a very good grasp of the turkish mentality.

Like you demonstrate us everyday the Greek one?

In the areas where there are turkish coasts opposite the Greek coasts, there are no such claims, and the median line is the border. Again, the Law of the Sea dictates that the islands do generate an EEZ. No equity is violated, as Turkey receives its own EEZ, in areas where we have no islands. And Turkey knows full well that EEZ does not mean territorial water, it merely means the right to exploit fisheries as well as mining in said area. The eastern med does not become "a Greek lake".

Islands Islands? Which Islands? that you will loose soon or why you are arming them since decades? Your State even sold that Islands that even don´t belong to Greece anymore wake up!

I bet this Guy must be your Uncle or Father or maybe it´s you?

[ioannis76]

Erdogan and the turkish opposition already did:

Turkish opposition backs Erdogan over Greek island claims

https://knews.kathimerini.com.cy/en/...-island-claims

So, apparently, now the Greek islands are not only armed, but also "occupied", according to the turkish opposition, and must be "liberated".

“If you have the heart for it, take the step on the occupied and armed islands. We will support you,” CHP chief Kemal Kilicdaroglu was quoted by Turkish media as saying in response to one of a series of questions posed to him by the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) at the Grand National Assembly on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, turkish minister of foreign affairs, Mr. Tsavusoglu, names 14 islands Turkey wishes to change their sovereignty:

https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...nty-cavusoglu/



Apparently, Turkey has only now discovered those islands, and has only now found out that they are actually inhabited by Greeks. Wait until they find out how long this has been going on for.

So, do you want to challenge Greek sovereignty of Athens? Have you always believed that even the island of Corfu belongs to Turkey (dieliberate exaggeration here, but the have challenged sovereignty of the island of Gavdos, which is off the south-WEST coast of Crete, so...). Here's the place to do it!

[AqD]

Why focus on those tiny islands? I propose Turkey liberates and returns to their 10th century territory instead.

[Roma_Victrix]

Seems like a bunch of Turkish machismo posturing to me, considering how these are two NATO countries we are talking about.

LOL. If Erdogan suddenly tried to pull a Putin on a fellow NATO state, I don't think the rest of NATO would take that too kindly.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's actually Greeks trying to obfuscate multiple issues together to make it appear as if Turkey is just trying to grab islands from Greece. Meanwhile, the latest row was about Greece's increased arming of islands close to Turkey that were supposed to be demilitarized as Turkey sent a letter to UN about it. Turkey has always made an issue out of this.

[Kritias]

^ The above statement (and map) is misleading.

1. Turkey seeks to enforce the Lausanne Treaty (articles 13, 14) governing the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace. Conveniently, Turkey has forgotten that the Lausanne Treaty was revised by the Montreux Treaty of 1936, and that their own Assembly at the time recognized the fact that the status of the Greek islands on the Northern East Aegean were going to be militarized. According to the then Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, Rustu Aras: "The provisions pertaining to the islands of Limnos and Samothrace, which belong to our neighbor and friendly country Greece and were demilitarized in application of the 1923 Lausanne Treaty, were also abolished by the new Montreux Treaty, which gives us great pleasure" (Gazette of the Minutes of the Turkish National Assembly, volume 12, July 31/1936, page 309).
2. Turkey subsequently wants to enforce the same treaty regarding the islands of Chios, Samos (No, you haven’t been to Samos!), Mytilene and Ikaria. Turkey forgets that these islands were militarized in response to their General Assembly’s casus belli on Greece back in 1995, and the immediate threat posed by the positioning of the Fourth Army across these islands (where it remains to this day). According to the Article 51 of the United Nations Charter, pertaining to the right of legitimate self-defense, Greece is acting according to its legal rights to protect its sovereignty against imminent aggression from Turkey. If Turkey wants to see these islands demilitarized, maybe Turkey should retract its casus belli first.
3. Turkey also forgets that the Lausanne Treaty stipulates the Turkish Airforce shall not fly over Greek islands, which it does at the rate of 40+ incursions a day, for the last fifty years. The Lausanne treaty also stipulated that the Greek minority of Istanbul and the Strait Islands shall not be subject to deportations and other abuse by the Turkish state; Turkey has virtually deported all Greeks (and confiscated their property) from Istanbul and the Strait islands illegally.
4. Regarding the Dodecanese, Turkey claims that the Treaty of Paris stipulates these islands should be demilitarized. While true, Turkey was not a signatory member, so their claim is, according to the Article 34 of the Vienna Treaty, a “res inter alios acta” and as such has no right to enforce the treaty. Turkey also forgets that the islands were militarized following the 1995 casus belli on Greece, an action constituting an immediate threat of war; thus giving Greece the right to militarize them according to Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. If Turkey wants to see these islands demilitarized, maybe Turkey should retract its casus belli first.

Lastly, as seen from the following two comparative maps, it’s easy to spot who the real aggressor is. Here’s the Turkish claims back in 1972 compared to its modern claims on the Aegean. Marked grey are all the islands disputed by the Turkish government as of a few days ago. With red are the Turkish claims for their exclusive economic zone, ignoring most of the Greek islands; with pink a further claim on exclusive economic zones engulfing Crete, an island with more than half a million inhabitants. According to Turkey no Greek island in the Aegean has an exclusive economic zone, a novelty in the world and completely against the Law of the Sea. And that’s the tea.

Carry on!

[Nebaki]

^ The above statement (and map) is misleading.
...

Carry on!

We already got a Topic in that relation and mostly for your Arguments with no Sources of course already got invalidated - please use the Search function on your own.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ce-Libya-Egypt

[Odenat]

Greece does not only have maritime problems with Turkey, they somehow succeeded at having problems with Iran! They stopped a russian ship transporting Iranian oil and stole that oil! Of course, Iran had to defend itself by stopping 2 greek ships at the Gulf. So, Greece also turned Persian gulf to a dangerous place with their unlawful actions. There is no UN embargo on Iranian oil so stopping ships and taking Iranian oil is piracy!

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2360056...eece-stole-oil

Also i don't understand why you closed the Greek thread and only left the Turkish one. At least change the title to "The latest complain about Turkey&Greece".

[PointOfViewGun]

^ The above statement (and map) is misleading.

It's not nice to claim someone and something is misleading and then only try to mislead people yourself...

Turkey seeks to enforce the Lausanne Treaty (articles 13, 14) governing the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace. Conveniently, Turkey has forgotten that the Lausanne Treaty was revised by the Montreux Treaty of 1936, and that their own Assembly at the time recognized the fact that the status of the Greek islands on the Northern East Aegean were going to be militarized. According to the then Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, Rustu Aras: "The provisions pertaining to the islands of Limnos and Samothrace, which belong to our neighbor and friendly country Greece and were demilitarized in application of the 1923 Lausanne Treaty, were also abolished by the new Montreux Treaty, which gives us great pleasure" (Gazette of the Minutes of the Turkish National Assembly, volume 12, July 31/1936, page 309).

Montreux Convention does not name Lemnos or Samothrace. The convention clearly states the scope of itself as "desiring to regulate to regulate transit and navigation in the Straits of the Dardanelles, the Sea. of Marmora and the Bosphorus" in its preamble. Lemnos and Samothrace are not in those regions as well. What the Turkish foreign minister of the time said with no original sources doesn't really add much.

Turkey subsequently wants to enforce the same treaty regarding the islands of Chios, Samos (No, you haven’t been to Samos!), Mytilene and Ikaria. Turkey forgets that these islands were militarized in response to their General Assembly’s casus belli on Greece back in 1995, and the immediate threat posed by the positioning of the Fourth Army across these islands (where it remains to this day). According to the Article 51 of the United Nations Charter, pertaining to the right of legitimate self-defense, Greece is acting according to its legal rights to protect its sovereignty against imminent aggression from Turkey. If Turkey wants to see these islands demilitarized, maybe Turkey should retract its casus belli first.

The casus belli was issued in 1995 in response to Greek desires to expand their sea territories to the detriment of Turkey's access to the Aegean sea. It's quite misleading to try to sell arming of islands along the Turkish shores as a defensive move. The army division that governs the Aegean cost, called the Aegean army, was officially declared in 1975 after years of preparation in light of instability in Greece that saw arming of these islands by 1960s, Greek invasion of Cyprus and pulling out from the NATO structure in 1974.

Turkey also forgets that the Lausanne Treaty stipulates the Turkish Airforce shall not fly over Greek islands, which it does at the rate of 40+ incursions a day, for the last fifty years. The Lausanne treaty also stipulated that the Greek minority of Istanbul and the Strait Islands shall not be subject to deportations and other abuse by the Turkish state; Turkey has virtually deported all Greeks (and confiscated their property) from Istanbul and the Strait islands illegally.

This part has nothing to do with the map or statements from the above post. I can only conclude that they are meant to mention anti-Turkish arguments to cover the lack of merit of the relevant parts... They are too, of course, misleading but I will not dive into them not to dilute the discussion and turn it into a text fest.

Regarding the Dodecanese, Turkey claims that the Treaty of Paris stipulates these islands should be demilitarized. While true, Turkey was not a signatory member, so their claim is, according to the Article 34 of the Vienna Treaty, a “res inter alios acta” and as such has no right to enforce the treaty. Turkey also forgets that the islands were militarized following the 1995 casus belli on Greece, an action constituting an immediate threat of war; thus giving Greece the right to militarize them according to Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. If Turkey wants to see these islands demilitarized, maybe Turkey should retract its casus belli first.

Again, misleading with the casus belli. That's already mentioned above. These islands were not militarized after the casus belli either. Rhodes Air Base, for example, used for civilian flights till the Rhodes International Airport was opened in 1977, have been used by the Hellenic Air Force ever since.

Lastly, as seen from the following two comparative maps, it’s easy to spot who the real aggressor is. Here’s the Turkish claims back in 1972 compared to its modern claims on the Aegean. Marked grey are all the islands disputed by the Turkish government as of a few days ago. With red are the Turkish claims for their exclusive economic zone, ignoring most of the Greek islands; with pink a further claim on exclusive economic zones engulfing Crete, an island with more than half a million inhabitants. According to Turkey no Greek island in the Aegean has an exclusive economic zone, a novelty in the world and completely against the Law of the Sea. And that’s the tea.

Interestingly, the map you're linking to there does not show the Greek claims. It's also quite a deceptive map because Turkey doesn't dispute all the gray marked islands there. The vast majority of sovereignty of those islands are not disputed by Turkey. For example, Rhodes, Lesbos, Chios, Samos and many others are not disputed at all. The islands that are disputed are those that were not named by any international treaty for its sovereignty shift to Greece. Regarding exclusive economic zone, Turkey have always argued for the median line between mainland Greece and Turkey while Greece wanted maximum extension for every single little island. Neither is correct regarding UNCLOS. There are multiple applications and international court judgments that doesn't fulfill either side's interpretation.

[Alastor]

Greece does not only have maritime problems with Turkey, they somehow succeeded at having problems with Iran! They stopped a russian ship transporting Iranian oil and stole that oil! Of course, Iran had to defend itself by stopping 2 greek ships at the Gulf. So, Greece also turned Persian gulf to a dangerous place with their unlawful actions. There is no UN embargo on Iranian oil so stopping ships and taking Iranian oil is piracy!

Actually the oil was confiscated by the US, not Greece, in accordance with their sanctions regime against Iran. Do note the ship was flying the Russian flag at the time, not the Iranian one. Furthermore Greece did not stop that ship. It stopped on its own near a Greek island, likely due to mechanical problems and was subsequently investigated and detained in accordance with sanctions imposed during Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Turkey as an ally of both the US and Greece should be supporting them in this dispute, rather than cheering on Iran's latest act of piracy. Iran who not only is not an ally but instead a designated enemy of the US, Turkey's primary ally.

More information here:
https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-oil-rus.../31871008.html
https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...49da0629ef4d85

[Nebaki]

rather than cheering on Iran's latest act of piracy. Iran who not only is not an ally but instead a designated enemy of the US, Turkey's primary ally.

When did Turkey cheered on Irans act of piracy? Probably currently is Turkey the only Member in NATO which is active in a fight against Iranian Influence in the Middle East. They did in back in History aswell today. Meanwhile USA is still embargoing Turkey one of his primary ally.

[Alastor]

When did Turkey cheered on Irans act of piracy? Probably currently is Turkey the only Member in NATO which is active in a fight against Iranian Influence in the Middle East. They did in back in History aswell today. Meanwhile USA is still embargoing Turkey one of his primary ally.

Odenat was cheering, regurgitating Iran's claims and blaming Greece. I assumed he got his information from Turkish media.

If that's not the case and Turkey is on the side of their allies, Greece & US, in this dispute, then good.

[PointOfViewGun]

Odenat was cheering, regurgitating Iran's claims and blaming Greece. I assumed he got his information from Turkish media.

If that's not the case and Turkey is on the side of their allies, Greece & US, in this dispute, then good.

You assumed that he got his information from Turkish media when he provided a link to the Express Tribune which is a Pakistani media agency? Of course, equating what a media agency says with what the country says is problematic in itself.

[Alastor]

You assumed that he got his information from Turkish media when he provided a link to the Express Tribune which is a Pakistani media agency? Of course, equating what a media agency says with what the country says is problematic in itself.

His views were not reflected in the article he linked. He obviously found some English language source to include in his post that somewhat resembled his opinion, but was getting his information from elsewhere.

As for equating what the mass media of a country says with what the government says, you are assuming a normal well-functioning democracy that respects press freedom. But Turkey has a very low press freedom rating, only slightly better than Russia's in fact, therefore the association becomes significantly less problematic than you assume.

[PointOfViewGun]

His views were not reflected in the article he linked. He obviously found some English language source to include in his post that somewhat resembled his opinion, but was getting his information from elsewhere.

Every single statement he made can be tied to the information given in the article.

As for equating what the mass media of a country says with what the government says, you are assuming a normal well-functioning democracy that respects press freedom. But Turkey has a very low press freedom rating, only slightly better than Russia's in fact, therefore the association becomes significantly less problematic than you assume.

And somehow a single article from a single news agency means the mass media in general, directed by the government, is conveying what the government thinks...

[Alastor]

Every single statement he made can be tied to the information given in the article.

Where in that article does it say that Greece stole the oil? The article explains it was the US that confiscated it. It does quote Khamenei making the claim it was stolen but it does not report that to be the case. Where in that article does it say that Greece turned the Persian gulf into a dangerous place?

Don't be absurd.

And somehow a single article from a single news agency means the mass media in general, directed by the government, is conveying what the government thinks...

I never referred to this specific article alone, in fact as I said in my previous response, I don't believe that's his source, because his views don't correspond to the article. I also said that I assumed "he got his information from Turkish media". Information, in general. Now that's an assumption, I could be wrong. When Nebaki said that Turkey is actually supporting Greece and the US in this I did not dispute it further.

At least you are not disputing that Turkey's press freedom is very low, which yes does mean that Turkish media would be heavily influenced by the government.