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Thread: USA - NATO - Turkey

  1. #21

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Somebody call USA and tell them that they could not invoke Article 5 back in 2001...
    ....invoked on September 12, 2001. Gee, the date seems so familiar....
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  2. #22

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    So the YPG attacked Turkey and thats the reason Turkey invaded Syria? Because we both know thats .
    Pretty much. PKK have been conducting attacks against Turkey for decades.


    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    ....invoked on September 12, 2001. Gee, the date seems so familiar....
    That's kinda the point...
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Pretty much. PKK have been conducting attacks against Turkey for decades.
    YPG isnt the PKK. You can argue over this but no one else in NATO believes it to be so. Besides Turkey has repeatedly attacked the YPG inside Syria which makes the idea of invoking Article 5 look real stupid considering its Turkey who's the aggressor.

  4. #24

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    YPG isnt the PKK. You can argue over this but no one else in NATO believes it to be so. Besides Turkey has repeatedly attacked the YPG inside Syria which makes the idea of invoking Article 5 look real stupid considering its Turkey who's the aggressor.
    Afghanistan didn't attack USA either.

    Meanwhile, the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community, with Daniel R. Coats as the Director of National Intelligence:
    The Kurdish People’s Protection Unit—the Syrian militia of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)
    Senior State Department Officials on the Situation in Syria:
    YPG, which is the Syrian offshoot of the PKK
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Afghanistan didn't attack USA either.
    No . However the Taliban did support and harbor al-Qaeda in their country making them responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Meanwhile, the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community, with Daniel R. Coats as the Director of National Intelligence:
    So the YPG is now listed as a FTO in the United states? Oh wait.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._Organizations

    No YPG on that list.

    Here's the document from 1997 where the US designated the PKK as a FTO.

    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...f/97-27030.pdf

    Still not one mention of the YPG or PYD in any capacity.

    If the YPG were considered the same group as the PKK then it would have been mentioned in the federal register of FTOs.


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/offshoot

    You know what an offshoot is right? Because that makes them different groups. Thanks for supporting my point.

  6. #26

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    No . However the Taliban did support and harbor al-Qaeda in their country making them responsible.
    Meanwhile YPG arrests and expels any PKK operative? You gotta admit how absurd your position is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    So the YPG is now listed as a FTO in the United states? Oh wait.....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._Organizations
    No YPG on that list.
    Here's the document from 1997 where the US designated the PKK as a FTO.
    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...f/97-27030.pdf
    Still not one mention of the YPG or PYD in any capacity.
    If the YPG were considered the same group as the PKK then it would have been mentioned in the federal register of FTOs.
    Does that list contain every little branch of al-Qaeda? Not really. Moreover, the list not containing YPG doesn't somehow stop it from being part of PKK. You're hiding behind a technicality. Bravo. I don't give a rats ass if USA labels YPG specifically as a terrorist organization. That doesn't change the fact that its part of PKK.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/offshoot
    You know what an offshoot is right? Because that makes them different groups. Thanks for supporting my point.
    An offshoot is a literal synonym of branch, sigh...
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Meanwhile YPG arrests and expels any PKK operative? You gotta admit how absurd your position is.
    You compared the 9/11 attacks to that of the YPG and my position is absurd? Are you claiming the YPG have supported and harbored the PKK since 1978 when the insurgency began and the PKK attacked Turkey?

    Better yet if the PKK is such a problem then why didn't turkey invoke Article 5 in 1978?

    Btw you should read this:

    https://www.insideover.com/war/turke...article-5.html

    You can't invoke Article 5, Turkey has to invoke Article 4 first and plead its case to NATO on why its independence or security is threatened. Even if Turkey succeeds in that regard, its still an uphill battle.

    Second, for Article 5 to be invoked, attack and defence action need to be distinguished cleanly. All NATO states must, therefore, regard the military actions of Turkey in Syria as lawful under international law – which is reasonably unlikely also, particularly after the remarks that have been made and the rules laid out for self-defence under the Charta of the United Nations, Chapter VII, Article 51.
    You have to get all of NATO to agree. If not, you can't invoke Article 5. Good luck. I think i won this one.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Does that list contain every little branch of al-Qaeda? Not really.
    Are you claiming it doesn't? Did you read it at all?

    It listed al-Qaeda itself on October 8, 1999. It listed Al-qaeda in Islamic Maghreb on March 27, 2002. It listed Al-Qaeda Kurdish Battalions in March 2004. It listed Al-Qaeda in Iraq (ISIS now) in December 2004. It listed Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in 2010. You want me to continue? Or do you just admit you were horribly wrong?


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Moreover, the list not containing YPG doesn't somehow stop it from being part of PKK. You're hiding behind a technicality. Bravo. I don't give a rats ass if USA labels YPG specifically as a terrorist organization. That doesn't change the fact that its part of PKK.
    You mean US law? Because thats all that matters. The YPG is not designated in any legal form or fashion as a terror group by the US. Until that changes in the eyes of the US law, the YPG is not a terrorist organization while the PKK is.



    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    An offshoot is a literal synonym of branch, sigh...
    Are you having trouble reading the very first definition? I can't help you if your own source starts supporting my point that they are different groups.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; December 10, 2019 at 04:03 AM. Reason: Flame.

  8. #28

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You compared the 9/11 attacks to that of the YPG and my position is absurd? Are you claiming the YPG have supported and harbored the PKK since 1978 when the insurgency began and the PKK attacked Turkey?
    Better yet if the PKK is such a problem then why didn't turkey invoke Article 5 in 1978?
    Btw you should read this:
    https://www.insideover.com/war/turke...article-5.html
    You can't invoke Article 5, Turkey has to invoke Article 4 first and plead its case to NATO on why its independence or security is threatened. Even if Turkey succeeds in that regard, its still an uphill battle.
    You have to get all of NATO to agree. If not, you can't invoke Article 5. Good luck. I think i won this one.
    Are you claiming it doesn't? Did you read it at all?
    It listed al-Qaeda itself on October 8, 1999. It listed Al-qaeda in Islamic Maghreb on March 27, 2002. It listed Al-Qaeda Kurdish Battalions in March 2004. It listed Al-Qaeda in Iraq (ISIS now) in December 2004. It listed Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in 2010. You want me to continue? Or do you just admit you were horribly wrong?
    You mean US law? Because thats all that matters. The YPG is not designated in any legal form or fashion as a terror group by the US. Until that changes in the eyes of the US law, the YPG is not a terrorist organization while the PKK is.
    Are you having trouble reading the very first definition? I can't help you if your own source starts supporting my point that they are different groups.
    YPG was setup and run by PKK. Just like we don't try to whitewash al-Qaeda branches all around the world we shouldn't whitewash YPG. In any case though, yes, suicide bombing perpetrators from the last 5 years are known to have received training in YPG controlled areas. They crossed the border posing as refugees. It's no mistake that posters of said bombers alongside the picture of Öcalan were posted on buildings in YPG controlled areas to commemorate them.

    Many NATO members have been subjected to terrorism. Only USA invoked the Article 5. In 2001, USA was on the receiving end of a group of terrorists originating from Saudi Arabia because of the former's involvement in said country. USA decided to invade the entirety of Afghanistan. If USA could invoke Article 4 and 5 there is no reason why Turkey could not invoke them. I love how you're boasting about winning when your case depends on NATO members applying double standards. That's an amazing argument to rely on. Bravo.

    There is practically an al-Qaeda in any relevant country. So, yeah, that list doesn't have them all. Not that if somehow did means anything. It's a political one, not an intelligence one. That list by the way includes KGK, also known as PKK, and lists Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria as area of operations. Just like it doesn't need to list the Iranian branch, PJAK, it doesn't need to list the Syrian branch, YPG, as PKK or KGK is the umbrella organization. Just like that the list also doesn't include TAK, which is a group that operates under PKK that committed a lot of suicide bombings. By your standards they're not terrorists either.

    USA's law doesn't determine what group we call terrorist. As I said, you're hiding behind a technicality that doesn't even have a value here. You're just trying to whitewash USA's cooperation with such a group in a very pathetic argument.

    Let me help:
    offshoot

    [ awf-shoot, of- ]SEE DEFINITION OF offshoot

    • noun development, product


    Synonyms for offshoot


    Can you tell me in one word what's the synonym of offshoot that is listed 5th there?

    I have already shown what the intelligence community of USA thinks of YPG, as the Syrian branch of PKK. Let's hear it from someone on the ground:

    America’s Marxist Allies Against ISIS
    “It’s all PKK but different branches,” Ms. Ruken said, clad in fatigues in her encampment atop Sinjar Mountain this spring as a battle with Islamic State fighters raged less than a mile away at the mountain’s base. “Sometimes I’m a PKK, sometimes I’m a PJAK, sometimes I’m a YPG. It doesn’t really matter. They are all members of the PKK.”
    Please continue.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; December 10, 2019 at 04:04 AM. Reason: Continuity.
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    YPG was setup and run by PKK.
    Source please?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr..._Party_(Syria)

    Nothing according to this whatsoever saying that the PKK founded the PYD.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Just like we don't try to whitewash al-Qaeda branches all around the world we shouldn't whitewash YPG.
    YPG isn't a terror group and unlike Al-Qaeda and its branches does not conduct international terrorism. No white washing here. Just you not admit you were horribly wrong earlier.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    In any case though, yes, suicide bombing perpetrators from the last 5 years are known to have received training in YPG controlled areas. They crossed the border posing as refugees. It's no mistake that posters of said bombers alongside the picture of Öcalan were posted on buildings in YPG controlled areas to commemorate them.
    And you have independent evidence to verify that claim right? Or let me guess, Turkey said they did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Many NATO members have been subjected to terrorism. Only USA invoked the Article 5. In 2001, USA was on the receiving end of a group of terrorists originating from Saudi Arabia because of the former's involvement in said country. USA decided to invade the entirety of Afghanistan. If USA could invoke Article 4 and 5 there is no reason why Turkey could not invoke them. I love how you're boasting about winning when your case depends on NATO members applying double standards. That's an amazing argument to rely on. Bravo.
    Are you having trouble reading my source i just posted? The alliance was set-up in a way where all members have to agree. If Turkey cannot get the rest of NATO to agree Article 5 can't be involved.

    There's no double standards here. Turkey invaded a country and is battling against local forces there. Thats not even remotely a defensive war and rest of NATO who demanded Turkey's withdraw agrees with me.
    I think you're just upset Turkey can't use NATO as Turkey's personal army.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    There is practically an al-Qaeda in any relevant country. So, yeah, that list doesn't have them all.
    No it does. You are just making a claim with zero evidence while i listed multiple Al-qaeda groups and not even all of them from the list. This is just some piss poor debating from you. Just admit you were wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not that if somehow did means anything. It's a political one, not an intelligence one. That list by the way includes KGK, also known as PKK, and lists Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria as area of operations. Just like it doesn't need to list the Iranian branch, PJAK, it doesn't need to list the Syrian branch, YPG, as PKK or KGK is the umbrella organization.
    Except the US has labeled PJAK as a terror organization.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN04297671

    So you are once again completely wrong. The US does label individual groups even if they are part of a bigger brand. I'd say stop while you are ahead but you haven't been ahead of anything this entire debate.



    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Just like that the list also doesn't include TAK, which is a group that operates under PKK that committed a lot of suicide bombings. By your standards they're not terrorists either.
    https://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01...ion=cnn_latest

    Wrong again. You are doing really bad right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    USA's law doesn't determine what group we call terrorist. As I said, you're hiding behind a technicality that doesn't even have a value here. You're just trying to whitewash USA's cooperation with such a group in a very pathetic argument.
    In the US legal system it does. I could even point out how multiple countries and organizations including the United Nations don't even have the PKK listed as a terror group in any form.

    There is nothing indicating that the YPG is a terror group according to US law, the United Nations, and multiple other countries. You have no argument. just give it up. i want to see you admit the YPG isn't a terror group.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Let me help:


    Can you tell me in one word what's the synonym of offshoot that is listed 5th there?

    I have already shown what the intelligence community of USA thinks of YPG, as the Syrian branch of PKK. Let's hear it from someone on the ground:

    America’s Marxist Allies Against ISIS


    Please continue.
    Don't ignore my source just because it doesn't support you. An offshoot by definition is not the same branch thats why its called an offshoot.I really can't help you source supported my point. Do try and read them better next time.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; December 10, 2019 at 04:01 AM. Reason: Flame.

  10. #30

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Source please?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr..._Party_(Syria)
    Nothing according to this whatsoever saying that the PKK founded the PYD.
    YPG isn't a terror group and unlike Al-Qaeda and its branches does not conduct international terrorism. No white washing here. Just you not admit you were horribly wrong earlier.
    And you have independent evidence to verify that claim right? Or let me guess, Turkey said they did it?
    Are you having trouble reading my source i just posted? The alliance was set-up in a way where all members have to agree. If Turkey cannot get the rest of NATO to agree Article 5 can't be involved.
    There's no double standards here. Turkey invaded a country and is battling against local forces there. Thats not even remotely a defensive war and rest of NATO who demanded Turkey's withdraw agrees with me.
    I think you're just upset Turkey can't use NATO as Turkey's personal army.
    No it does. You are just making a claim with zero evidence while i listed multiple Al-qaeda groups and not even all of them from the list. This is just some piss poor debating from you. Just admit you were wrong.
    Except the US has labeled PJAK as a terror organization.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN04297671
    So you are once again completely wrong. The US does label individual groups even if they are part of a bigger brand. I'd say stop while you are ahead but you haven't been ahead of anything this entire debate.
    https://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01...ion=cnn_latest
    Wrong again. You are doing really bad right now.
    In the US legal system it does. I could even point out how multiple countries and organizations including the United Nations don't even have the PKK listed as a terror group in any form.
    There is nothing indicating that the YPG is a terror group according to US law, the United Nations, and multiple other countries. You have no argument. just give it up. i want to see you admit the YPG isn't a terror group.
    Don't ignore my source just because it doesn't support you. An offshoot by definition is not the same branch thats why its called an offshoot. I really can't help you source supported my point. Do try and read them better next time.
    Thank you for continuing. Looks like the more your position gets debunked the more you try to project the short comings of your arguments...

    From the same article earlier:
    The Kurdish guerrilla groups pledge allegiance to Abdullah Ocalan, the PKK chief imprisoned on a Turkish island since 1999. From jail in 2005, he established PKK affiliates that evolved into today’s YPG, HPG and PJAK.
    With, PKK leader Öcalan being touted as their leader and PKK officer Abdi Ferhad Şahin acting as their commander in chief there is little sense in trying to differentiate between the two groups like the way you do.



    I guess terrorism doesn't count as international terrorism when its only directed at Turkey. Got it... Of course, Turkey's institutions provide a lot of information. However, Wall Street Journal, which interviewed fighters who expressed that PKK, YPG, or PJAK are all the same, is not a Turkish institution.

    I love how you threw a Wikipedia article on the terrorist group list implying that if a group is not on that list it's not a terrorist group only to keep on trying to find other sources to complement it each time a group that's not on that link is mentioned. It's a really badly constructed argument. Here is the example of projection. You're hiding behind a technicality and accuse me of not having an argument. Hiding behind a technicality like the way you do doesn't amount to an argument. Hence, you try double down on your assertion and simply demand admission.

    It's really interesting how you accuse me of ignoring your sources when all this debacle is created because you chose to ignore USA's intelligence community's labeling of YPG. Keep it up though. You're arguing with the thesaurus now. Good luck.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; December 10, 2019 at 04:03 AM. Reason: Continuity.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Thank you for continuing. Looks like the more your position gets debunked the more you try to project the short comings of your arguments...
    I proved you wrong three or four times now while you fail to produce sources fir the claims you just made.

    You claimed Turkey could invoke Article 5 like the US did. That was proven wrong. You claimed the US didn't list the various branches of known terror groups on its FTO list. That was proven wrong. You also claimed that PJAK and TAK were not considered terror groups by the US and that was proven wrong.

    What have you debunked again? Because it seems more like i've been knocking down your points one by one.



    With, PKK leader Öcalan being touted as their leader and PKK officer Abdi Ferhad Şahin acting as their commander in chief there is little sense in trying to differentiate between the two groups like the way you do.



    I guess terrorism doesn't count as international terrorism when its only directed at Turkey. Got it... Of course, Turkey's institutions provide a lot of information. However, Wall Street Journal, which interviewed fighters who expressed that PKK, YPG, or PJAK are all the same, is not a Turkish institution.
    Thats cool and all but none of that proves the YPG was founded by the PKK nor does it prove that the YPG was training PKK suicide bombers as you claimed.

    I love how you threw a Wikipedia article on the terrorist group list implying that if a group is not on that list it's not a terrorist group only to keep on trying to find other sources to complement it each time a group that's not on that link is mentioned. It's a really badly constructed argument. Here is the example of projection. You're hiding behind a technicality and accuse me of not having an argument. Hiding behind a technicality like the way you do doesn't amount to an argument. Hence, you try double down on your assertion and simply demand admission.
    I like how you claimed the US wouldn't designate sub groups of other bigger brand terror groups as FTOs and then i proved you oh so horribly wrong.

    I'm not hiding behind anything. The YPG isn 't considered a terror group by many countries including the US and tge United Nations itself. Nor is the YPG known to conduct terror attacks against anyone. You also ignore that last detail.

    So yes you don't have an argument. You can't prove they are designated terrorists by the US or really any country besides Turkey nor can you prove the YPG is known to conduct terror attacks.

    You want to lump the YPG in with the PKK so badly but the reality is they are two separate groups with separate aims and separate ways of operating.

    It's really interesting how you accuse me of ignoring your sources when all this debacle is created because you chose to ignore USA's intelligence community's labeling of YPG. Keep it up though. You're arguing with the thesaurus now. Good luck.
    I'm not ignoring anything. Besides your poor sources one of which supported me as i've pointed out the YPG still isn't organization in the eyes of the United States. No amount of poor debating from you will change that.

    And don't say i'm arguing against a thesaurus when you ignored my dictionary definition of the world. Grammar doesn't change just because you want it to.
    Last edited by Vanoi; December 04, 2019 at 03:18 PM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I proved you wrong three or four times now while you fail to produce sources fir the claims you just made.
    You claimed Turkey could invoke Article 5 like the US did. That was proven wrong. You claimed the US didn't list the various branches of known terror groups on its FTO list. That was proven wrong. You also claimed that PJAK and TAK were not considered terror groups by the US and that was proven wrong.
    What have you debunked again? Because it seems more like i've been knocking down your points one by one.
    Thats cool and all but none of that proves the YPG was founded by the PKK nor does it prove that the YPG was training PKK suicide bombers as you claimed.
    I like how you claimed the US wouldn't designate sub groups of other bigger brand terror groups as FTOs and then i proved you oh so horribly wrong.
    I'm not hiding behind anything. The YPG isn 't considered a terror group by many countries including the US and tge United Nations itself. Nor is the YPG known to conduct terror attacks against anyone. You also ignore that last detail.
    So yes you don't have an argument. You can't prove they are designated terrorists by the US or really any country besides Turkey nor can you prove the YPG is known to conduct terror attacks.
    You want to lump the YPG in with the PKK so badly but the reality is they are two separate groups with separate aims and separate ways of operating.
    I'm not ignoring anything. Besides your poor sources one of which supported me as i've pointed out the YPG still isn't organization in the eyes of the United States. No amount of poor debating from you will change that.
    And don't say i'm arguing against a thesaurus when you ignored my dictionary definition of the world. Grammar doesn't change just because you want it to.
    You're trying to talk quite loudly given how little substance and truth you're uttering.
    Turkey could invoke Article 5 like USA did if NATO members didn't try to apply double standards. You're arguing like the Bible here. You say that you have proven me wrong not based on actual facts but on your own claims.
    The list you linked to absolutely didn't list the number of groups I mentioned which forced you to find new links. In any case, as I repeatedly suggested you're merely hiding behind a technicality. I don't give a rats ass whether a group is featured in that list. World doesn't revolve around that.
    The facts you're ignoring are that YPG is run by known PKK officers, that YPG's leader is PKK's leader, that USA's intelligence community sees YPG as the Syrian branch of PKK, that fighters on the ground suggest that they're all the same, YPG, PJAK or PKK.
    Let's read your definition together than since you seem to be trying to apply "grammar" selectively:
    Definition of offshoot1a: a collateral or derived branch, descendant, or member : OUTGROWTH
    b: a lateral branch (as of a mountain range)
    2: a branch of a main stem especially of a plant
    Emphasis is mine. Your definition supports what I'm saying, what thesaurus is saying. YPG is the Syrian branch of PKK.
    What remains is that while you'd label a group as a terrorist organization without trouble even if a random member's cough sounds like the name "bin Laden" you're here trying to build an empty case.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    I think its is quite settled. It looks like you dropped your earlier claims. Thats good.I don't feel like arguing in circles with you. I have proven you wrong. You've made multiple claims and i have presented sources that countered them. Just admit you were wrong.There's no technicality. YPG isnt considered a terror group by anyone besides Turkey. They don't conduct terror attacks. Those aren't technicalities. They are facts you ignore. You don't see them as different groups but everyone else does. Be ignorant. No one will stop you.

    https://www.france24.com/en/20191204...ria-kurds-nato

    According to Marcon Turkey couldn't reach a consensus with the rest of NATO regarding the YPG. Its Turkey's job to convince the rest of the alliance its under attack. If Turkey can't manage that its not double standards it simply Turkey failing to meet the requirements to invoke Article 5. Don't like it? Leave the alliance.

    And lastly: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...altics-poland/

    Turkey backed down on its threat to block NATO defense plans in Poland and the Baltics. Looks like Turkey lost out in this one.
    Last edited by Vanoi; December 05, 2019 at 07:36 AM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I think its is quite settled. It looks like you dropped your earlier claims. Thats good.I don't feel like arguing in circles with you. I have proven you wrong. You've made multiple claims and i have presented sources that countered them. Just admit you were wrong.There's no technicality. YPG isnt considered a terror group by anyone besides Turkey. They don't conduct terror attacks. Those aren't technicalities. They are facts you ignore. You don't see them as different groups but everyone else does. Be ignorant. No one will stop you.
    https://www.france24.com/en/20191204...ria-kurds-nato
    According to Marcon Turkey couldn't reach a consensus with the rest of NATO regarding the YPG. Its Turkey's job to convince the rest of the alliance its under attack. If Turkey can't manage that its not double standards it simply Turkey failing to meet the requirements to invoke Article 5. Don't like it? Leave the alliance.
    And lastly: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...altics-poland/
    Turkey backed down on its threat to block NATO defense plans in Poland and the Baltics. Looks like Turkey lost out in this one.
    Sure. Me, USA's own intelligence community, various generals and lawmakers of USA, PKK fighters themselves, so on and on, should just drop it and changed their views so that you can defend USA for its cooperation with a known terror group. You couldn't even get the basics right and you're trying to claim victory by merely claiming it. "Any man who must say I am the king is no true king."
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sure. Me, USA's own intelligence community, various generals and lawmakers of USA, PKK fighters themselves, so on and on, should just drop it and changed their views so that you can defend USA for its cooperation with a known terror group.
    You couldn't even get the basics right and you're trying to claim victory by merely claiming it. "Any man who must say I am the king is no true king."
    We've been over this. Besides don't lie. You never cited one general. Just a bunch of people who established a connection but it never makes them the same group nor does it prove any of the outrageous claims you've made about them but failed to provide any evidence for.

    You consistently failed to prove the YPG are terrorists in any way. The US government doesn't beleive Turkey's . Nor NATO. Nor the UN. Nor Russia. Nor China. And the list goes on.

    I get it though. Everyone else in the world is wrong and Turkey is right no matter if thats the case or not. And now that Turkey backed down it has no leverage. NATO will continue to support the YPG and the Turks will continue to pound sand. Nothing changes. I like that outcome.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...tes-and-poland

    There's going to be a strategic review of NATO. French are definitely taking advantage of this to increase its influence in the alliance. Turkey looks like it lost out.

  16. #36

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    We've been over this. Besides don't lie. You never cited one general. Just a bunch of people who established a connection but it never makes them the same group nor does it prove any of the outrageous claims you've made about them but failed to provide any evidence for.
    You consistently failed to prove the YPG are terrorists in any way. The US government doesn't beleive Turkey's . Nor NATO. Nor the UN. Nor Russia. Nor China. And the list goes on.
    I get it though. Everyone else in the world is wrong and Turkey is right no matter if thats the case or not. And now that Turkey backed down it has no leverage. NATO will continue to support the YPG and the Turks will continue to pound sand. Nothing changes. I like that outcome.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...tes-and-poland
    There's going to be a strategic review of NATO. French are definitely taking advantage of this to increase its influence in the alliance. Turkey looks like it lost out.
    I didn't say that I cited a general, though I did cite the exchange between Senator Lindsay Graham and USA Army General Dunford on YPG's tie to PKK before in a different thread. How do you manage to lie when you accuse me of lying is beyond me. It's your projection game I guess...

    In this thread, I have cited the statements made in the the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community calling YPG the Syrian branch of PKK. I also cited the statements made by the senior state department officials on how YPG is an offshoot of PKK which through your own link you learned that offshoot meant that YPG was a member of PKK, or through my link that one of synonyms of offshoot was branch. I also cited the statements made by PKK fighters themselves calling themselves PKK, PJAK, and YPG, being all the same. Please pay attention to such details.

    We'll see what the real outcome of this summit will be as if your links have any reliable news they indicate that Turkey's move was made after a meeting with Trump. Clearly, Erdoğan must have scored something that likely will help secure his hold rather than the good of the country. Given how you're trying to use the same fallacious approach to facts here I understand why you'd support that outcome.
    The Armenian Issue

  17. #37
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    We'll see if Erdogan gained anything. Highly doubt it considering the US hasn't announced a change in any of its current positions on the YPG or the S-400 issue.
    So its not clear at all Erdogan gained anything out of this meeting.

    Rest of your post is the same nonesense that doesn't address the fact that no one but Turkey considers the YPG to be terrorists. So my response is simply. Ok Turkey.
    Last edited by Vanoi; December 05, 2019 at 09:52 AM.

  18. #38

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    NATO is done to be honest. America is going it's own way, leaving NATO standardisation to develop 6.8mm ammo...
    How this is a proof for leaving NATO standardisation? It will just fill the Gap between 5.56 & 7.62 nothing else.

  19. #39
    Ferdiad's Avatar Patricius
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Assuming that if the next president isn't trump doesn't re-integrate back into NATO is pretty shortsighted as well.

  20. #40

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    They may as well rescue Ocalan himself from the prison and make him their leader, but the Vanoi would still say "not the same group." That's a round circuit, no end, because you can't convince someone that consciously refuses to be convinced as it's contradicts their political agenda, which has the priority over reality.
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