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    Default USA - NATO - Turkey

    Exclusive: Turkey holds up NATO military plans over Syria dispute - sources
    BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Turkey is refusing to back a NATO defense plan for the Baltics and Poland until the alliance offers Ankara more political support for its fight against Kurdish YPG militia in northern Syria, four senior alliance sources said.

    Ankara has told its NATO envoy not to sign off on the plan and is taking a tough line in meetings and in private conversations, demanding the alliance recognize the YPG as terrorists in the formal wording, the sources said.
    Are you 'brain-dead'? Turkey's Erdogan raps Macron before NATO summit
    ISTANBUL/PARIS (Reuters) - Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday that Emmanuel Macron’s warning that NATO was dying reflects a “sick and shallow” understanding, telling the French president “you should check whether you are brain dead”.
    The troubles with NATO seems to be pilling up. Alongside Macron calling NATO brain dead and Erdoğan responding with calling him brain dead, an under-reported development is happening. Recently, Turkey basically vetoed a security plan that covered the Baltics in response to NATO's stance on Turkey's own security concerns.

    This latest development have been reported fairly widely in Turkey. The twist that they focused on was that the development mentioned above came after USA vetoes an other security plan that labeled YPG/PYD/PKK as a threat to Turkey.

    The fact that NATO countries acts against Turkey's security interests is nothing new, nor it is a secret. USA have been housing a Turkish cleric for decades, who is known to have a large following, with a business empire, who is on tape telling his followers to remain secretive till they have the power to take over the Turkish government.

    On a larger scale, the veiled support coming from other NATO states to PKK for decades, despite labeling them as a terrorist organization, though only after the said group conducted violent attacks in their own soil, and the current open support to YPG, which at least USA's own institutions on record labeling it as the Syrian branch of PKK, doesn't exactly show that NATO is interested in Turkey's security.

    There will be a NATO summit in a few weeks that will certainly have heated arguments with Macron, Trump and Erdoğan playing their own tunes. So, with NATO's double standards, what's the real point of it all? After all, the real reason NATO was formed, Russia, could take over Crimea in the end. What's the need for NATO if all it will used to do is to serve USA's needs?
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #2
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Double standards? If Turkey wants the cleric, then request extradition. Turkey has had the chance to ask for his extradition ever since Gullen lived in America in the 90s.

    The YPG nonesense is old. Especially when Turkey complains about them being terrorists while having no problem with their own proxies who include former members of Al-Nusra and many jihadists.

    Turkey complains about its secuirty interests but it has repeatedly jeopardized the fight against the IS in Syria who threaten NATO members and have attacked them. Turkey cares solely about its own security and not that of its fellow allies.

    NATO was formed as a defensive alliance against the Soviets. Don't see how NATO could have prevented Russia from taking Crimea from Ukraine who is not a member of NATO.

    Just because NATO members think its a good idea to support the YPG doesn't mean NATO only serves the USA's needs.

    Turkey is playing the victim card and the OP of the thread reinforces this. NATO was not created to serve the interests of Turkey. Its obvious Turkish interests conflict not only with that of NATO but with that of many of its individual members. If Turkey doesn't like NATO's direction they are more than free to leave the alliance.

  3. #3

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    NATO is done to be honest. America is going it's own way, leaving NATO standardisation to develop 6.8mm ammo for example and the Euro block is developing an EU military alliance to operate independently.

    Turkey will find itself isolated as nobody needs then anymore to lock up the Russians sailing out of the black sea.

  4. #4

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    NATO is done to be honest. America is going it's own way, leaving NATO standardisation to develop 6.8mm ammo...
    How this is a proof for leaving NATO standardisation? It will just fill the Gap between 5.56 & 7.62 nothing else.

  5. #5
    Odenat's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    The problem is Western countries use NATO to protect its own interests. That method was working at 1980s when Turkey was weak. But now the balance of the force is shifting, Turkey have its own interests; not only at Middle East, but also at Africa&Asia. For example, Turkey have naval bases at Qatar& Somalia, it is opening a base at Antarctica. Of course, all of that is terrifying west which does not want any rivals. Nowadays, Turkey wants to use NATO, just like West use it.

    For example, at Libya, France is arming General Haftar's forces who fights against UN supported government. This is a direct violation of international law but France can do it because it is a Western country. Now, does anybody speak of kicking France out of NATO? Of course not. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...001110293.html

    A few years ago, when a Russian warplane violating Turkish airspace was shot down, everyone, including forum members here, said that Turkey is putting West in danger by defending itself. They were thinking that Russian threat at Syria was not important, just like they don't care about YPG threat today. Now, the same Westerners ask from Turkey to help protect Baltic against Russia! What can be Turkish answer? Of course this; Western countries are putting Turkey in danger by their Baltic plans! Why we must care about Russian actions threatening you when you do not care about actions threatening Turkey, even when France openly arms terrorists?

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    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    The problem is Western countries use NATO to protect its own interests. That method was working at 1980s when Turkey was weak. But now the balance of the force is shifting, Turkey have its own interests; not only at Middle East, but also at Africa&Asia. For example, Turkey have naval bases at Qatar& Somalia, it is opening a base at Antarctica. Of course, all of that is terrifying west which does not want any rivals. Nowadays, Turkey wants to use NATO, just like West use it.
    No one is scared of the Turkish Navy.

    For example, at Libya, France is arming General Haftar's forces who fights against UN supported government. This is a direct violation of international law but France can do it because it is a Western country. Now, does anybody speak of kicking France out of NATO? Of course not. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...001110293.html
    The same Turkey who violates international law by arming the UN supported government in spite of the arms embargo placed against all of Libya?
    https://www.un.org/press/en/2019/sc13832.doc.htm

    The same Turkey occupying sovereign territory of another nation. (Syria)

    Don't complain about France since Turkey violates international law too and receives no punishment.


    A few years ago, when a Russian warplane violating Turkish airspace was shot down, everyone, including forum members here, said that Turkey is putting West in danger by defending itself. They were thinking that Russian threat at Syria was not important, just like they don't care about YPG threat today. Now, the same Westerners ask from Turkey to help protect Baltic against Russia! What can be Turkish answer? Of course this; Western countries are putting Turkey in danger by their Baltic plans! Why we must care about Russian actions threatening you when you do not care about actions threatening Turkey, even when France openly arms terrorists?
    Don't give us that about Russia being a threat when Turkey actively works with Russia in Syria and is now buying its toys. Don't want to protect the Baltics? Then leave already. Go lick Russia's boots.

    You also openly arm terrorists. Plenty of jihadists in the SNA.

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    Odenat's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    I agree with you.
    So, why doesn't Turkey leave NATO?
    Why stay in an organisation that acts against its interests?
    I would urge you, for the sake of Turkey's integrity and the best interests of the Turkish people, of course, to abandon this dangerous institution at once.
    Is that how Western countries act? When a government or organisation acts against the interest of USA, England or France, what do they do? Do they leave? Or do they force it to change by using all methods?

    Tell me, what did France do when Qaddafi refused to give oil fields to French companies? Did they leave Libya alone?

    And if France is so unhappy about NATO (remember it was Macron who said NATO is brain-dead), why don't they leave? lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post

    The same Turkey who violates international law by arming the UN supported government in spite of the arms embargo placed against all of Libya?
    https://www.un.org/press/en/2019/sc13832.doc.htm

    The same Turkey occupying sovereign territory of another nation. (Syria)

    Don't complain about France since Turkey violates international law too and receives no punishment.
    So, you are not accusing France of violating international law by arming the REBELS WHO FOUGHT AGAINST UN SUPPORTED GOVERNMENT at Libya, and you accuse Turkey of helping UN supported government! Unbelievable! If not for Turkish help, today the government would be fallen to Haftar's hands. The question you must be asking is why no one else but Turkey supports UN supported Libyan government! Is it possible that Haftar promised oil fields to France&England? What do you think?

    And you know, France have troops at Syria too! Do you wonder what they do there? Aren't there an invading force? I don't remember Syrian government calling them. And what US troops are doing at Northern Iraq and Afghanistan? Aren't they invaders too? Or being an invader works only for Turkey?

    And when Turkey tried to fought against Russian influence at Syria, no one at NATO helped us. Now, you accuse us of licking their boots lol. Weren't you guys accusing Turkey of endangering West by trying to fight back against Russia? Well, please stop fighting back against Russia at Baltic, you are putting Turkey at risk.

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    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    So, you are not accusing France of violating international law by arming the REBELS WHO FOUGHT AGAINST UN SUPPORTED GOVERNMENT at Libya, and you accuse Turkey of helping UN supported government! Unbelievable!
    That still violates the arms embargo. No one is allowed to sell arms to either faction in Libya as my source states. Turkey us violating international law just like France.

    If not for Turkish help, today the government would be fallen to Haftar's hands. The question you must be asking is why no one else but Turkey supports UN supported Libyan government! Is it possible that Haftar promised oil fields to France&England? What do you think?
    France and Italy do have oil fields in Libya. Turkey didn't stop the LNA. They were incompetent to begin with and can't reliably take on the GNA.

    And you know, France have troops at Syria too! Do you wonder what they do there? Aren't there an invading force? I don't remember Syrian government calling them. And what US troops are doing at Northern Iraq and Afghanistan? Aren't they invaders too? Or being an invader works only for Turkey?

    And when Turkey tried to fought against Russian influence at Syria, no one at NATO helped us. Now, you accuse us of licking their boots lol. Weren't you guys accusing Turkey of endangering West by trying to fight back against Russia? Well, please stop fighting back against Russia at Baltic, you are putting Turkey at risk.
    Fight against Russia in Syria? Turkey shot down a plane. Thats it. Turkey is in Syria for its own interests not to combat Russia.

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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    That still violates the arms embargo. No one is allowed to sell arms to either faction in Libya as my source states. Turkey us violating international law just like France.
    We are lucky you were not around when Hitler was invading Poland. You would accuse England&France of violating international law by sending weapons to Poland.

    By the way, EU declared an arm embargo to whole Syria. UK and France is arming PYD which is inside Syria. UK and France are EU members. Do you see the logic here? No one cares. So, Turkey can do what West does.

    Oh, and Merkel also accused Macron of being childish and said she "was tired of picking the pieces after him". Eastern European are furious against France because France says Russia is not the enemy. Turkey is furious against France because they arm terrorists. Germans are furious against France because it will be Germany who will pay for France's EU army dreams.

    It seems the title of this thread must be changed to "USA-NATO-France" because it is not Turkey who is a problem inside NATO. It is France!

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-family-crisis

  10. #10

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    The fact that NATO countries acts against Turkey's security interests is nothing new, nor it is a secret.
    Western countries are putting Turkey in danger by their Baltic plans!
    I agree with you.
    So, why doesn't Turkey leave NATO?
    Why stay in an organisation that acts against its interests?
    I would urge you, for the sake of Turkey's integrity and the best interests of the Turkish people, of course, to abandon this dangerous institution at once.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    If Macron kneel down before US Congress and begging Americans to save him from his Sahara trouble may be Americans would help him...
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  12. #12

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    This Cold War era terrorist organisation needs to die.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  13. #13

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    There is little logic in criticizing Turkey for jeopardizing the fight against ISIL after invoking that NATO is primarily against Russia when the topic is about fighting other organizations that primarily target Turkey. That is outright use of double standards. If NATO is to be used exclusively for Russia then it should be conveyed and codified in writing.
    The Armenian Issue

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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    By the way, EU declared an arm embargo to whole Syria. UK and France is arming PYD which is inside Syria. UK and France are EU members. Do you see the logic here? No one cares. So, Turkey can do what West does.
    The EU is not Nato, and it lifted that Embargo in 2013 anyway.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Is that how Western countries act? When a government or organisation acts against the interest of USA, England or France, what do they do? Do they leave? Or do they force it to change by using all methods?
    There are actions and there are actions. The way you depict it, and I agree, it seems that the very survival of Turkey is at stake. Well, you can't have that, now, can you? They are clearly against your best interests, bent upon destroying the turkish nation. Therefore there is no other option, you must either leave NATO, or fight against it, and force it to change its ways by means of force. The US has nuclear weapons in turkish territory, you can start by violently seizing these weapons. It would be a good choice.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  16. #16

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    They withdrew from NATO military command in 1966 and didn't even re-join until 2009.
    Well remembered. Oh well, it seems that Turkey could follow the example. No sense in staying in an institution that works against it.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  17. #17

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    During Cold War Turkey was supposed to be cheap non-essential cannon fodder for NATO in a fight against Soviet Union. With the latter dissolving, there is little pragmatic point in keeping Turkey there, especially since Erdogan himself is now bowing down to Putin.
    With the coming demographic crisis in Europe, as well as potential civil conflict that will come out of that, Russia is fixing to re-establish itself as "gendarme of Europe" and Turkey is picking the stronger side, as usual.

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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...ute-with-syria

    Turkey might try to invoke Article 5 against the YPG in Syria. The point of article 5 is to come to the defense of fellow members who are being attacked. Turkey invading Syria then fighting the YPG is definitely not a defensive war.

  19. #19

    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Somebody call USA and tell them that they could not invoke Article 5 back in 2001...
    The Armenian Issue

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    Default Re: USA - NATO - Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Somebody call USA and tell them that they could not invoke Article 5 back in 2001...
    So the YPG attacked Turkey and thats the reason Turkey invaded Syria? Because we both know thats .

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