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Thread: Tweeting politics.

  1. #21
    Akar's Avatar Faustian Bargain Maker
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    That's cool and all but why didn't he just move out of the damn way?

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  2. #22
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    I wondered that myself. Safe to say he probably didn’t want to get hit and killed.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    I hate to be "that guy" but this really just sounds like a story of a drunk/distracted driver hitting a traffic guard, not some heroic story of some guy standing in the way of a car to stop it from hitting kids who according to the article hadn't even entered the road yet.

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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    You could be right, but I opted not to question a dead man. Believing he gave his all to protect kids is a cooler story than to believe he was just too slow to react.

  5. #25

    Default The west is the best

    Is there any culture superiour to the western one most of us grew up in? I highly doubt so.

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  6. #26
    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: The west is the best

    What the hell is Western culture?

  7. #27

    Default Re: The west is the best

    Western culture, sometimes equated with Western civilization, Occidental culture, the Western world, Western society, and European civilization, is the heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, artifacts and technologies that originated in or are associated with Europe. The term also applies beyond Europe to countries and cultures whose histories are strongly connected to Europe by immigration, colonization, or influence. For example, Western culture includes countries in the Americas and Australasia, whose language and demographic ethnicity majorities are of European descent. Western culture is most strongly influenced by the Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman cultures.
    [see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture]
    I would attempt to more thoroughly answer your question but I am not sure the meager nature and suspect intent of the original post warrants much effort. This thread may not be particularly long-lived.
    If your question was meant to imply that Western culture does not exist, I am sorry to disappoint. It does.
    Last edited by skh1; April 10, 2020 at 02:21 AM. Reason: Formatting issue.
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  8. #28
    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: The west is the best

    It's a bit too broad a concept, in my opinion. Surely there are values and beliefs shared by Western societies, but to call this a common Western culture is too simplistic. Anyone who has lived in various Western countries understands that though we share a lot with each other, particularly in the realm of values and morality, culturally and spiritually there exist significant differences. It's precisely this difference within commonality that make Europeans truly Europeans. So I'm not saying that Western culture doesn't exist, but my point is that the term is too ambiguous. I would rather try to figure out, specifically, what Westerners share. Once you try to make this commonality concrete, you also begin to notice the differences.

  9. #29
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The west is the best

    Quote Originally Posted by Amagi View Post
    Is there any culture superiour to the western one most of us grew up in? I highly doubt so.
    I'm sure you always have a good excuse, but every time I see something like this I have no doubt that the intention is to piss off (piss in?) "the east". (a secondary intention may be to boast about our own ignorance of other cultures, of course).
    Last edited by mishkin; April 10, 2020 at 04:56 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  10. #30

    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    @ Diamat:
    I believe (stipulating that I do not pretend to know) the Christian religion has been a fundament of Western civilization and is, or was, a common denominator of Western culture even admitting its own parochial variations. As its influence wanes and other influences come to the fore, it is possible a pall of ambiguity is cast over our perception of Western culture. Is a British Pakistani western or are they a Pakistani in Britain? What of a Syrian refugee in Germany or an African immigrant to Sweden? Do they adopt the values of the Western culture they inhabit or cleave to the values of their own culture even if that might render them essentially immiscible to the society in which they reside? Crucially, Western culture allows them that choice. Hence the ambiguity perhaps?

    National differences abound within Europe, it is true, and thank God for that. In just the realm of food, we may marvel at French cuisine which is sine pari, Italian cuisine which is nulli secundus, German cuisine which I'm sure has its redeeming qualities. But they all share common ingredients. They may be different in their particulars but they are much the same in that they all provide sustenance. Just so with Western culture?

    The angry, vehement, and distinctly rebarbative rant featured in the original post might possibly have been a reaction to attempts to negate the value or even the existence of Western culture which is apparently current in many centers of learning in the West presently. Or possibly not. I don't know. I didn't get that far into it. John Paul Watson isn't my cup of tea really which is a pity. I found his critiques of modern art and architecture most cogent insofar as I agreed with them. I find his political stuff tendentious and not entirely honest though. His is, however, entitled to his opinions; courtesy of Western culture as it happens.
    Last edited by skh1; April 10, 2020 at 06:04 AM. Reason: to correcct an errant punctuation mark
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  11. #31
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    It is also funny that people, when referring to "western culture", talk about Michelangelol's David and the Sistine Chapel, but forget our greats (wars, genocides) and small daily atrocities (rapes, pedophilia, mistreatment of mentally ill...). Our grandparents weren't listening to Chopin while they were mistreating their wives or getting drunk until they couldn't take it anymore.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  12. #32

    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    You speak of depravity and criminality which emerge from the human condition and obtain in every culture. If we decry the degeneracy of Western culture for these reasons, we must similarly despise the cultures of all others. That's only fair. Perhaps it would be better to say that to maintain that one culture is superior to another is to adamantly overlook all the vices of the one while steadfastly ignoring all the virtues of the other which is dishonest. Arguments based upon absolutes usually are.
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  13. #33
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    The vast majority of the population have never heard a work by Chopin and we are indifferent to Michelangelo's David, and of course none of us have painted the Sistine Chapel. Going a little beyond what you say, crap in the east, crap in the west, great artists and cultural events and scientific advances everywhere, nothing for which we can boast and no reason to try to establish stupid comparisons.
    Last edited by mishkin; April 10, 2020 at 06:31 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skh1 View Post
    @ Diamat:
    I believe (stipulating that I do not pretend to know) the Christian religion has been a fundament of Western civilization and is, or was, a common denominator of Western culture even admitting its own parochial variations. As its influence wanes and other influences come to the fore, it is possible a pall of ambiguity is cast over our perception of Western culture. Is a British Pakistani western or are they a Pakistani in Britain? What of a Syrian refugee in Germany or an African immigrant to Sweden? Do they adopt the values of the Western culture they inhabit or cleave to the values of their own culture even if that might render them essentially immiscible to the society in which they reside? Crucially, Western culture allows them that choice. Hence the ambiguity perhaps?

    National differences abound within Europe, it is true, and thank God for that. In just the realm of food, we may marvel at French cuisine which is sine pari, Italian cuisine which is nulli secundus, German cuisine which I'm sure has its redeeming qualities. But they all share common ingredients. They may be different in their particulars but they are much the same in that they all provide sustenance. Just so with Western culture?

    The angry, vehement, and distinctly rebarbative rant featured in the original post might possibly have been a reaction to attempts to negate the value or even the existence of Western culture which is apparently current in many centers of learning in the West presently. Or possibly not. I don't know. I didn't get that far into it. John Paul Watson isn't my cup of tea really which is a pity. I found his critiques of modern art and architecture most cogent insofar as I agreed with them. I find his political stuff tendentious and not entirely honest though. His is, however, entitled to his opinions; courtesy of Western culture as it happens.
    While I certainly believe in the superiority of Western morality and values, I find the concept of Western culture to be lacking in concreteness, but not because of immigration and national nihilism. Perhaps we can define the components of "Western culture" before we start using this concept. To simply say Judeo-Christian bla bla is just as ambiguous. I think what many people actually mean when they talk about Western culture is the enlightenment tradition, which built on our Judeo-Christian heritage and synthesized with it. It's a complicated topic, and one may wonder whether or not we are talking about culture at all.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    I must confess, the extract from Wikipedia I cited earlier is the best answer of which I am capable to your request for a defintion of culture. Sorry. Perhaps culture is like pornagraphy: you know it when you see it. Is Western culture of a concrete form? Well, no I suppose not since it is an abstract concept. I have yet to stub my toe on a piece of Western culture sticking up from the ground unless perhaps a piece of it broke off from the statue of David. (No, not that piece. Shame on you).
    I'm afraid I'm not entirely on board with your belief in the superiority of Western morality and values though you did not specify as to what they were deemed to be superior. They're excellent, of course, and have always stood us in good stead on the sadly rare occasions when we have bothered to observe them. To suggest the superiority of one thing, a priori, implies the inferiority of another but perhaps I misapprehend your meaning.
    Mr. Watson's contention that some cultures are better than others is a point that could be argued. It is not without some validity. I have no doubt that many non-Europeans can find much to deplore in Western culture — colonialism (amended in due course), a curious attachment to slavery (also amended but only after strenuous effort), excessive consumption (might be as well to get cracking on that one), etc. — but I suspect this is not what Mr. Watson meant. It seems that, as a European, he finds Western culture to be superior to all others. In response, non-Europeans might well add hubris to their list of deficiencies they ascribe to Western culture if, that is, they ever had reason to remove it in the first place. Perhaps it all comes down to one's perspective.
    @ Mishkin
    I would be surprised to the point of astonishment if the vast majority of the population had not heard of Chopin. We live in benighted times to be sure but that seems entirely too pessimistic.
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  16. #36
    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    Precisely because you're unable to easily define Western culture, you ought critically examine the concept and its truthfulness. It's not quite comparable to pornography, which is much more straightforward, definable, and one-dimensional. Culture, especially WESTERN culture, is a much more complicated can of worms. Its boundaries must be delineated. Where does it begin and where does it end? What exactly are its components? Only once you make it concrete can it be talked about in a rational and falsifiable way.

    As for the superiority of Western morality and values, I think the matter is rather self-evident. Rule of law, secularism, rights of the individual, liberty, equality of the genders, etc -- all of these are of Western origin and, in my personal view, superior to phenomena such as theocracy, despotism, religiously motivated killings and genital mutilation, and so on. Whenever we try to criticize a bad social phenomenon in the West, whether it be slavery or fascism, we typically do so on the basis of this Western enlightenment tradition. We are fortunate to have this tradition, and I do believe it provides us with a certain level of moral superiority that we can be proud of. For those born into a less fortunate society, their means of attacking bad social phenomena are limited. For them, the Western tradition provides a toolkit for self-liberation, but if we, in the West, no longer believe in the superiority of our own values, then how are people less fortunate than us supposed to convince others that these values are worth fighting for?

  17. #37
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    It is also funny that people, when referring to "western culture", talk about Michelangelol's David and the Sistine Chapel, but forget our greats (wars, genocides) and small daily atrocities (rapes, pedophilia, mistreatment of mentally ill...). Our grandparents weren't listening to Chopin while they were mistreating their wives or getting drunk until they couldn't take it anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by skh1 View Post
    I must confess, the extract from Wikipedia I cited earlier is the best answer of which I am capable to your request for a defintion of culture. Sorry. Perhaps culture is like pornagraphy: you know it when you see it. Is Western culture of a concrete form? Well, no I suppose not since it is an abstract concept. I have yet to stub my toe on a piece of Western culture sticking up from the ground unless perhaps a piece of it broke off from the statue of David. (No, not that piece. Shame on you).
    I'm afraid I'm not entirely on board with your belief in the superiority of Western morality and values though you did not specify as to what they were deemed to be superior. They're excellent, of course, and have always stood us in good stead on the sadly rare occasions when we have bothered to observe them. To suggest the superiority of one thing, a priori, implies the inferiority of another but perhaps I misapprehend your meaning.
    Mr. Watson's contention that some cultures are better than others is a point that could be argued. It is not without some validity. I have no doubt that many non-Europeans can find much to deplore in Western culture — colonialism (amended in due course), a curious attachment to slavery (also amended but only after strenuous effort), excessive consumption (might be as well to get cracking on that one), etc. — but I suspect this is not what Mr. Watson meant. It seems that, as a European, he finds Western culture to be superior to all others. In response, non-Europeans might well add hubris to their list of deficiencies they ascribe to Western culture if, that is, they ever had reason to remove it in the first place. Perhaps it all comes down to one's perspective.
    @ Mishkin
    I would be surprised to the point of astonishment if the vast majority of the population had not heard of Chopin. We live in benighted times to be sure but that seems entirely too pessimistic.
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  18. #38
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Tweeting politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Isn’t war, genocide and slavery a near universal phenomenon?
    oh no, we agree again??? Yes, war, genocide, slavery, rape, murder, misoginy, mistreatment of the least favored, are universal phenomena. As well as acts of kindness, the fight for justice, artistic expressions, the development of science (when circumstances allow), etc.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  19. #39

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