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Thread: Ancient vendettas.

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Based on the details of the language and the text, there isn’t really any doubt that they have correctly dated it to the Middle Bronze Age. The interesting (and probably unanswerable question) is how it ended up in a garbage pit roughly a thousand years later. The pit cuts into earlier layers, but not deep enough that it could have just fallen out of the side. More likely, it was actually thrown in there at the time the pit was in use. Meaning it was either found by someone somewhere or kept as an heirloom for a millennium.
    The way people literally fetishize the written word it may have been seen as "the comb of lice destroying +2 vs arthropods" and retained past the time it was legible to the users.

    I recall an anecdote (I think in the Golden Honeycomb by Vincent Cronin, not sure) that Papal robes would be made with the finest silks, including brocades imported from the Near East including items embroidered with the Name of God, expressing decidedly un Catholic doctrinal positions on the trinity. You'd expect the pope would have someone on staff who could read Arabic but there were times the old Pontiff's standing ebbed low, so its plausible.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Hand of Irulegui contains the first written word in basque language:

    Researchers claim to have found earliest document written in Basque 2,100 years ago

    The Hand of Irulegi, unearthed in 2021 near Pamplona, is a bronze plate containing 40 mysterious symbols. Experts believe they have deciphered its first word: ‘sorioneku’, or ‘good fortune’



    An archaeologist holds the Hand of Irulegi, the earliest known text in Basque script. juantxo egana

    Vicente G. Olaya
    Madrid - Nov 14, 2022 - 18:07 CET

    Between the years 80 BC and 72 BC, the armies of Quintus Sertorius on one side and of the generals Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius and Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey) on the other had transformed Hispania into the main battlefield for control of Rome. Indigenous tribes who supported one faction in a conflict known as the Sertorian War faced immediate reprisals from the other side. This was exactly what happened to the inhabitants of the settlement located on Mount Irulegi, near the Valley of Aranguren, around five miles from present-day Pamplona in Spain’s northern Navarre region. Pompey’s troops attacked it, destroyed it and burned it to the ground.
    In 2018 Manolo Romero, the mayor of Valle de Aranguren (a municipality bringing together eight villages located in the valley of the same name) sought help from the regional government of Navarre and from the Aranzadi Science Society (known in Spain for conducting hundreds of exhumations of Civil War-era mass graves). Researchers got to work excavating the hillock, on which the walls of a medieval castle also stand. At the foot of the fortification, the remains of a 2,000-year-old settlement were uncovered. In 2021, on the threshold of one of the houses razed during the Sertorian Wars, workers found a bronze slab in the shape of a hand and about 14.5 centimeters (5.7 in) long. Laboratory analysis confirmed that strange inscriptions were engraved on its fingers, in the form of 40 symbols distributed across four lines.


    Javier Velaza, a professor of Latin Philology at the University of Barcelona and one of the world’s foremost experts on pre-Roman inscriptions, was astonished when he analyzed the piece last April: it turned out to be the first text in history to be written in the Basque language, Euskera, and its first word could be translated into sorioneku, meaning good fortune or good omen. “The Hand of Irulegi is undoubtedly the first document written in the Basque language and in a specifically Basque script [an alphabet that includes letters and syllables], as well as being the longest text known to date,” says Velaza.
    The Vascones were a pre-Roman people whose territory was mainly centered in present-day Navarre, although it also extended into parts of Gipuzkoa, La Rioja, Zaragoza and Huesca. The basic characteristics of this area, which does not correlate to the modern-day Basque Country, are its Pyrenean character, its extension toward the Ebro basin to the south and its outlet to the Cantabrian Sea through the Bidasoa River. The earliest mention of the Vascones was made by the historians Pliny the Elder and Claudius Ptolemy in the 1st century AD, when they drew up a list of Basque cities based on a map commissioned by Caesar Augustus. Among these were Oyaso (modern-day Irún), Ejea de los Caballeros (Zaragoza), Jaca (Huesca) and Calahorra. Little else was known about the Vascones as, until now, no written texts had ever been found, only a few coins. The inhabitants of the region spoke a language called Proto-Basque, an ancient precursor of the current Basque language that contained strong linguistic similarities. These have led experts to conclude that the two are in fact different stages of the same language.
    Additionally, known inscriptions in the region are scarce and highly disputed. Only a few written in Paleohispanic script have survived, the attribution and linguistic interpretation of which remain a source of open debate. It was not until the Roman Imperial era that a more abundant epigraphic body emerged. In this context, the discovery of a Basque inscription like the one on the Hand of Irulegi constitutes an exceptional novelty, according to the experts.
    The Irulegi archaeological site stands on an isolated mountain between the Pyrenees and the Ebro valley. It was built for defensive purposes and to control the surrounding territory in the Bronze Age, between the 15th and 11th centuries BC and disappeared in the 1st century BC. The settlement has been preserved intact due to the fire set by Pompey’s troops, which caused the collapse of the dwellings, sealing them shut. All the excavated buildings are rectangular and oriented south-north. They had stone plinths, adobe brick walls and interspersed posts to hold up the wooden roofs and the vegetation covering them. The dwellings measured about 70 square meters (753 square feet) and were separated by streets or spaces. Experts believe the settlement had a “significant role on a local and regional scale.”

    The Irulegui Hand and Proto-Basque inscriptions.

    Sociedad de Ciencias AranzadiOn June 18, 2021, archaeologist Leire Malkorra found the bronze hand in the vestibule of one of these dwellings, identified as Building Number 6,000. It was buried under the remains of charcoal and burnt adobe caused by the fire. Etruscan and black ceramics, numismatic elements and the bone remains of domestic animals were also found. Uppsala University in Sweden has dated the finds to the first quarter of the 1st century BC, with a probability of 95.4%.

    An aerial view of Mount Irulegui in Navarre, Spain. Sociedad de Ciencias Aranzadi

    When it was removed, no engraved inscription or ornamention was visible so the artifact was thought to be part of a helmet. It consisted of a sheet of bronze, cut down to represent the shape of a life-sized right hand, and is an alloy of 53.19% tin, 40.87% copper and 2.16% lead, something common in ancient alloys, according to the analysis of experts from the Public University of Navarre.


    Archaeologists excavate the site where the settlement of Irulegi, razed by the Romans, once stood. Sociedad de Ciencias Aranzadi

    Between March and April 2022, the epigraphers Javier Velaza and Joaquín Gorrochategui, a professor of Indo-European Linguistics at the University of the Basque Country, carried out a detailed analysis of the piece. The inscription had been carved on the face of the artifact that represents the back of the hand and the text is read with the fingers facing downwards. “The script used to write the text belongs to the family of Paleohispanic semi-syllabaries [such as Iberian or Celtiberian], but it presents some characteristics that lead us to believe that it is a special subsystem,” say the experts, which means that it does not coincide with the rest of the known ancient scripts used in the Iberian Peninsula.
    For example, the inscription includes the symbol T, which has already been identified on two coins, supporting the theory of the existence of a particular subsystem, as such a sign does not exist among the rest of the Hispanic script systems. In addition, the system of letters and semi-syllabary of the Hand of Irulegi includes two vibrating signs, which makes it possible that it is an adaptation of the Iberian script, as the Celtiberian script lacked one of them. How, when and where the Vascones adapted the Iberian script is unknown, but it does completely rule out the theory that they were a people who lacked a writing system, as had previously been thought, but that “they knew the writing and had made use of it, if not extensively then at least not negligibly.”


    A transcription of the signs on the Hand of Irulegi.
    The first word is 'sorioneku', which can mean of good fortune or omen.Sociedad de Ciencias AranzadiThe phrases on the Hand of Irulegi are separated by dots or marks (interpunctuations), but none of the identified words appear to correspond to personal Basque names, and since the names of Paleohispanic gods are largely unknown to experts, they believe that some of the words may refer to Basque divinities or places.


    Researchers working on an analyis of the Hand of Irulegi. Sociedad de Ciencias Aranzadi

    What epigraphers have distinguished is the first word of the text: sorioneku, which is very similar to the Basque word zorioneko, formed by the sequence zori (fortune) and on (good), which can be translated as “of good fortune or good omen.” The rest of the inscription raises more questions, the researchers admit. They do though believe they have detected some recognizable words such as es (ez in modern Basque), anadverb of negation, and perhaps also a form relatable to the verb egin (to do).
    “What is beyond doubt,” conclude Velaza and Gorrochategui, “is that the exceptional Irulegi inscription proves that the Basques were using their language in that territory in the 1st century BC. And, taking into account the scarcity of firm testimonies for the establishment of the linguistic map of the area and of the protohistory of the Basque language, its discovery creates an inescapable basis for any debate on the question. The Hand of Irulegi constitutes the first document undoubtedly written in the Basque language.”

    https://english.elpais.com/culture/2...years-ago.html
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; November 20, 2022 at 04:39 AM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  3. #103

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz
    He made a mistake. Ecclesiastes doesn’t claim to be written by Solomon. It claims to be written by Qōheleṯ, which Ecclesiastes is a translation of. As far as I know, the idea that it was written by Solomon is simply a tradition. Although, maybe he knows of a Greek variant of the text that makes that claim. He is mostly a New Testament scholar, and while I’ve seen him address Greek versions of Hebrew texts, I don’t know if he reads Hebrew.
    Yes, his expertise is mostly Greek/NT. It could be the reason Solomon is regarded as the author, at least in the Christian tradition I know (along with Proverbs and Song of Songs) is because Ecclesiastes identifies the קֹהֶלֶת who collected these sayings as “the Son of David, king in Jerusalem” in the KJV.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  4. #104

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    It could be the reason Solomon is regarded as the author, at least in the Christian tradition I know (along with Proverbs and Song of Songs) is because Ecclesiastes identifies the קֹהֶלֶת who collected these sayings as “the Son of David, king in Jerusalem” in the KJV.
    Oh... this didn't occur to me, because the expression “son of David” can mean “patrilineal descendent of David” which seems to be the obvious meaning in context. It’s the same with the expression typically translated as “children of Israel”. It could be “sons of Israel”, but in context, it means “descendants of Israel” with Israel being Jacob.

    I’ve seen some debate about whether Athaliah was the daughter or sister of Ahab, because she’s referred to as the “daughter of Omri”, but it’s the same issue. She was called a “daughter of Omri” because she was Omri’s granddaughter and a princess of his line. Incidentally, she was also the granddaughter of Ithobaal I of Tyre, and almost certainly a historical person. Although the allegation that she had her own family killed off is almost certainly false. It makes no sense, and it was Jehu who had every reason to have them killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  5. #105
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Burglars steal millions of dollars in gold | Switzerland Times

    Must have been an act of organized crime, as before several fibre glas connections were cut, so the alert didn't reach police. 13.000 households were without Internet and Telephone. Bavarian State Criminal Police Office has assumed investigation.

    In worst case these celtic coins will be melt in, as its easier to sell the gold.

    Irreplaceable historical artefacts would be lost.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; November 23, 2022 at 06:27 AM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  6. #106

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    I really doubt they will be melted. That would drastically reduce the value of the loot and I suspect the robbers had already found a buyer. Ancient coins are a premium commodity in the antiquities black market. Bactrian coins for example are very prized, because the chaotic situation in Afghanistan makes smuggling, illegal excavations and forgeries pretty easy. That's not the case for the Celtic coins, but these problems can be solved through fake documents, supposedly certifying that the coins were originally discovered in the middle decades of the 20th century, before most of the international laws forbidding the sale and circulation of antiquities were established. Like the Dresden jewels, some of these coins will most likely resurface as part of a usually overseas private collection.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I really doubt they will be melted. That would drastically reduce the value of the loot and I suspect the robbers had already found a buyer. Ancient coins are a premium commodity in the antiquities black market. Bactrian coins for example are very prized, because the chaotic situation in Afghanistan makes smuggling, illegal excavations and forgeries pretty easy. That's not the case for the Celtic coins, but these problems can be solved through fake documents, supposedly certifying that the coins were originally discovered in the middle decades of the 20th century, before most of the international laws forbidding the sale and circulation of antiquities were established. Like the Dresden jewels, some of these coins will most likely resurface as part of a usually overseas private collection.
    That will hopefully happen, if they can't be found quick again by the bavarian police.

    Might Taranis Bolts hit the thiefs!
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  8. #108

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Oh... this didn't occur to me, because the expression “son of David” can mean “patrilineal descendent of David” which seems to be the obvious meaning in context. It’s the same with the expression typically translated as “children of Israel”. It could be “sons of Israel”, but in context, it means “descendants of Israel” with Israel being Jacob.

    I’ve seen some debate about whether Athaliah was the daughter or sister of Ahab, because she’s referred to as the “daughter of Omri”, but it’s the same issue. She was called a “daughter of Omri” because she was Omri’s granddaughter and a princess of his line. Incidentally, she was also the granddaughter of Ithobaal I of Tyre, and almost certainly a historical person. Although the allegation that she had her own family killed off is almost certainly false. It makes no sense, and it was Jehu who had every reason to have them killed.
    I suppose alot can go wrong when using בֵּן in so many different contexts, but it would seem to always refer to offspring. Even Biblically, if she married Jehoram in the 840s and had a child by him, it seems unlikely she would have been born in the 870s to Omri. I do find it odd that Omri and his immediate descendants are regarded as idolaters given Judaism as it would come to be understood doesn’t appear to have been entirely monotheistic at the time, but perhaps it’s because the priests who would later write all this down certainly were. I tend to find the timeline of all that confusing though.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Here is a comprehensive study about bog bodies (mummies and skeletons) in north european mires between 9000 BC and 1900 AD.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...0B2FC7#article

    I found it quite interesting.

    For example that of 57 individuals 45 were killed. Between 1000 BC and 1100 AD there were often a kind of overkill by several letal injuries, which means probably that this was a kind of ritual killing.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  10. #110
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Burglars steal millions of dollars in gold | Switzerland Times

    Must have been an act of organized crime, as before several fibre glas connections were cut, so the alert didn't reach police. 13.000 households were without Internet and Telephone. Bavarian State Criminal Police Office has assumed investigation.

    In worst case these celtic coins will be melt in, as its easier to sell the gold.

    Irreplaceable historical artefacts would be lost.
    They have catched the burglars, 80 coins were at least melted...

    Parts of the Manching gold treasure found

    Nine months after a gold treasure was stolen from a museum in Manching, Bavaria, investigators have apparently found parts of it - but not in the original form. Four suspects were also arrested.

    Nine months after a hoard of gold was stolen from a museum in Manching, Upper Bavaria, investigators arrested four people and probably also found part of the hoard of gold - albeit as a lump and no longer in the form of coins. On Thursday, the State Criminal Police Office and the public prosecutor's office in Munich presented their results so far. Interior Minister Herrmann: "great investigation success" Interior Minister Joachim Herrmann spoke of a "great investigation success" and gave a first insight into the investigative work: DNA traces at the crime scene ultimately led to four men between the ages of 42 and 50 being arrested. There is evidence that some of them may have committed many more thefts; "We are obviously dealing with professional burglars," said the minister. At the same time, he dampened the hope of getting the Celtic treasure back in its entirety and undamaged: "Unfortunately, it must be assumed that the Celtic treasure is at least not completely preserved in its original form." An analysis showed a high degree of agreement with the Manchinger Gold. According to Limmer, the gold nuggets weigh about 29 grams. Because a coin weighed about 7 to 7.5 grams, the investigators assume that the alleged perpetrators always melted four coins into one lump - and thus irretrievably destroyed them in their original form. The officials had found that thefts had been reported time and again for years in which the perpetrators - as in Manching - had interrupted the alarm channels. This group of perpetrators also used the same burglary tools over and over again, including black overalls, respirators and certain backpacks. This is how the investigators came across a criminal group that has been active in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania since the 1990s. When researching online platforms, the investigators came across two people from this group who had ordered the same overalls and backpacks several dozen times. At this handover, the officials grabbed the gold nuggets and arrested the suspects: four men between the ages of 42 and 50. Suspects have probably committed other thefts. Nicolas Kaczynski, Chief Public Prosecutor, went into more detail: three of the four men were already known to the police; it is assumed that they were involved in eleven other thefts at supermarkets, a casino and a gas station throughout Germany and in one case also in Austria. Three of those arrested live in and around Schwerin, the fourth in Berlin. The district court of Ingolstadt has issued arrest warrants against her for serious gang theft; according to Kaczynski, a prison sentence of between one and ten years is on it. The investigators are currently working further and are searching, among other things, 18 apartments and other objects. They are also looking for the remaining pot of gold, but "that will certainly take a long time," said the senior public prosecutor. On the night of November 22, 2022, thieves broke into the Kelten Römer Museum in Manching and stole a treasure containing 483 Celtic gold coins from around 100 BC and three other coins. According to experts, the commercial value of the 3.7-kilogram treasure is said to be several millions. The coin collection unearthed in Manching in 1999 was the largest Celtic gold find of the past century and the showpiece of the house. However, this triggered fault reports at several banks and the police were alerted. As a result, strips were sent to the bank branches because attacks on the ATMs were feared due to the disruption. The LKA had criticized the inadequate security technology in the museum. The video technology was outdated. Therefore, there are no recordings of the burglary.

    Nach Diebstahl: Teile des Manchinger Goldschatzes aufgetaucht | tagesschau.de

    The burning man ritual should be revived...
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  11. #111

    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    So I guess file this one under Herodotus was right:

    Leather was one of the most important materials of nomadic Scythians, used for clothing, shoes, and quivers, amongst other objects. However, our knowledge regarding the specific animal species used in Scythian leather production remains limited. In this first systematic study, we used palaeoproteomics methods to analyse the species in 45 samples of leather and two fur objects recovered from 18 burials excavated at 14 different Scythian sites in southern Ukraine. Our results demonstrate that Scythians primarily used domesticated species such as sheep, goat, cattle, and horse for the production of leather, while the furs were made of wild animals such as fox, squirrel and feline species. The surprise discovery is the presence of two human skin samples, which for the first time provide direct evidence of the ancient Greek historian Herodotus’ claim that Scythians used the skin of their dead enemies to manufacture leather trophy items, such as quiver covers.
    Human and animal skin identified by palaeoproteomics in Scythian leather objects from Ukraine
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #112
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    Default Re: Ancient vendettas.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Not surprised at all, its the sort of exotic "barbaric" detail he loves but given how weird it is no doubt travelers (or even Skythians he might have met in Athens and elsewhere) would mention it.

    Herodotus gets a lot of stick, backhanded from Thucydides, and outright called the "father of lies" but others but he usually is just repeating what his sources told him, and he often gives multiple accounts so we can choose.

    Now if they could just unearth some one-breasted warrior women or one of those flying snakes...
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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