Friday/Saturday/Sunday morning preaching.

[Prodromos]

Please, don't ever use Fallacious Feser's arguments again claiming that they're logical. He was soundly trashed before here: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...as-story/page5

Trashed? I'd beg to differ. But as far as I can tell, that thread you linked isn't relevant to the debate at hand, since what we're debating here is not the existence of God, but his goodness. This discussion already presupposes that there is a God and that the Christian conception of him is true.

The version of the christian god that you believe in is, sure. But that's why I said it would depend on how he was proven to exist, and how much of the bible was proven along with it.

My goal is not to arrive at moral perfection.

Because I don't think that just finding out god is real would be enough to completely flip my moral compass. That being said, there's no real way to prove that hypothesis right or wrong sadly.

If you wouldn't become a Christian even if Christianity were true, then it's not truth you're after. You admit that your rejection of Christianity is volitional and that it has nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is actually true. Which is fine, but it's not the position of a neutral observer on a quest for truth.

It's one thing to reject Christianity because you haven't the evidence for it to be compelling; that seems like a reasonable position to take, and an intellectual discussion might prove to be productive there. But an emotional or volitional rejection, that's hard to overcome through reason alone. So there's not much I can do to change your mind.

[mishkin]

All this (your position regarding gos) can be summarized in that the only ones with free will (and capacity for critical thinking, and our own, not imposed through coercion morality) are going to be atheists. free will to refuse to worship an egomaniac and unjust god anchored millennia ago. I personally if your god existed, would tell him to ### off.

[Akar]

It's one thing to reject Christianity because you haven't the evidence for it to be compelling;

Yes, which is why I've rejected it...

So there's not much I can do to change your mind.

This entire hypothetical argument is reliant on christianity being proven to be true in it's entirety. So we're a significant amount of proof and evidence away from you having to "change my mind" on this.

Honestly, this entire weird thought experiment is pointless.

All this (your position regarding gos) can be summarized in that the only ones with free will (and capacity for critical thinking, and our own, not imposed through coercion morality) are going to be atheists. free will to refuse to worship an egomaniac and unjust god anchored millennia ago. I personally if your god existed, would tell him to ### off.

Agreed.

[pacifism]

I have a hard time understanding this message. could you rephrase it or try to be clearer?

I think that what basics is saying is that no one is beyond saving. Just because someone is doing something sinful doesn't mean that that person can be written off as a hopeless cause or be treated unkindly.

He is also saying that being a Christian can fix LGBT people into straight, cisgender people.

This entire hypothetical argument is reliant on christianity being proven to be true in it's entirety. So we're a significant amount of proof and evidence away from you having to "change my mind" on this.

Honestly, this entire weird thought experiment is pointless.

Is entertaining a thought just too much for you?

The word you might be looking for is theology, by the way.

[Adamat]

If you wouldn't become a Christian even if Christianity were true, then it's not truth you're after. You admit that your rejection of Christianity is volitional and that it has nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is actually true. Which is fine, but it's not the position of a neutral observer on a quest for truth.

It's one thing to reject Christianity because you haven't the evidence for it to be compelling; that seems like a reasonable position to take, and an intellectual discussion might prove to be productive there. But an emotional or volitional rejection, that's hard to overcome through reason alone. So there's not much I can do to change your mind.

If the bible and the christian god were proven to be real, I'd of course concede that he exists. That doesn't mean that I'd become a christian, the reason for this being that I would refuse to worship such a small-minded, violent, hilariously incompetent being as god as he's been portrayed in the bible.

[mishkin]

mishkin,

You do mean the people who have no future without artificial help? Why even by Darwin's standards they have no future but it might be strange to you to know that with the new heart God can give them through Jesus Christ being their true biological makings will return. In other words they can be men and women once again.

I think that what basics is saying is that no one is beyond saving. Just because someone is doing something sinful doesn't mean that that person can be written off as a hopeless cause or be treated unkindly.

He is also saying that being a Christian can fix LGBT people into straight, cisgender people..

you've lowered the contempt that basics seems to express (people who cannot or choose not to reproduce are unnatural aberrations that fortunately will disappear without a trace, lol), but I guess the outright contempt (lgtbi people is broken/needs fixing) cannot be disguised in any way. (I understand that you are not giving your point of view but trying to explain basic's).

[Akar]

Is entertaining a thought just too much for you?

Yes.

[basics]

If the bible and the christian god were proven to be real, I'd of course concede that he exists. That doesn't mean that I'd become a christian, the reason for this being that I would refuse to worship such a small-minded, violent, hilariously incompetent being as god as he's been portrayed in the bible.

Adamat,

So, where does it depict God as being anything you are portraying Him as?

[Akar]

The ing bible mate...

[basics]

Akar,

Where does it say God is small minded? Where does it say that God is violent? If memory serves me correct it was man who began the violence leading to the flood. Where does it say that He is hilariously incompetent? You still don't get it do you? Our story is what God determined before He even made the worlds for His good pleasure so being the Author of life what He has written of you and me, the things we do, the things we say, come right from His pen long before you were even a glint in your parent's eyes. Why even the notable authors throughout history wrote what He gave them to write and none, not one comes anywhere near to Him. Whatever you and your fellow travellers think you all are doing exactly what He has authored.

[Prodromos]

"If a perfect being existed and he had different morals than me, he's wrong and I'm right."

Pride is a heck of a thing.

[Adamat]

If perfect morality allowed for slavery, genocide, stoning of adulterers, dashing of babies against rocks, etc etc, then I'd contest that the morality in question was indeed perfect.

[Prodromos]

What you contest is the notion that God is God and you are not, which your pride finds intolerable.

[Adamat]

Yes, my pride is holding me back from rationalizing stone age mythology as absolute good.

[basics]

Yes, my pride is holding me back from rationalizing stone age mythology as absolute good.

Adamat,

You must therefore agree that today's morality has not changed from the days you mention and yet we are supposed to have advanced so so much from then?

[Akar]

Basics,

You must therefore agree that you are completely incapable of detecting sarcasm?

[basics]

Basics,

You must therefore agree that you are completely incapable of detecting sarcasm?

Akar,

It's the Sheldon Cooper effect.

[Akar]

I have no idea what that means.

[basics]

I have no idea what that means.

Akar,

You've never heard of or seen the Big Bang Theory? C'mon pull the other one.

[Akar]

Yes, I am aware of the Big Bang Theory and who Sheldon Cooper is, but I haven't watched the show and have no idea what the "Sheldon Cooper effect" is, and nor does it show up on google.

No reason to be smug about no one understanding an obscure reference to a show they haven't seen.

You seem to have once again proven my original point.