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  • Post 1 - Muizer

    1 14.29%
  • Post 2 - HackneyedScribe

    3 42.86%
  • Post 3 - Genava

    1 14.29%
  • Post 4 - Cookiegod

    0 0%
  • Post 5 - saxdude

    2 28.57%
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Thread: POTF 18 - Vote

  1. #1
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default POTF 18 - Vote

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    Muizer - Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?
    Post 1
    I admit this is going out on a limb, but there might be something to it: The phenomenon you describe might be a remnant from times when all (official) power was assumed to come from God. If all power comes from god, then those exerting it will feel uninclined to accomodate other beliefs. We might think of absolute monarchs here, but I think it's worth asking whether many voters in democratic systems are not still exerting their little slice of power in this manner.

    So, what is the alternative? I think the 'enlightened' view is that power comes from 'the people' and that as there is no single eternal, divine, anchor for good government we limit ourselves to a social contract. Specifically, peolpe might think something like murder is 'evil', but that is not in itself a grounds for a state to make it illegal. That illegality is instead the outcome of a social contract. Nobody wants to be, murdered, assaulted, stolen from etc., hence we promise eachother than if any of us is the victim, we will stand by their side and hunt down the perpetrator.

    With no external 'anchor of truth' a liberal democracy holds that it strives for the greatest freedom for the greatest number. This involves weighting one person's interests against another whenever a conflict arises. The old an new ways are very similar in some cases like murder and theft: things that used to be considered 'sinful' and are now guarded against through a social contract. In other cases (the ones the OP mentions) they are diverging sharply. Sodomy might have been 'sinful', but in terms of the social contract and the weighting of interests, the only damage is an offense against certain sensibilities. Yet, some people exert their little slice of democratic power well outside of the scope of the social contract, acting like tiny gods sitting in judgement of others instead.

    Democracy, again, is not an end in itself, it's a procedure. It can yield results at odds with what it is intended for. Obvious example is 'democratically abolishing democracy', but really any instance where people act like little gods is abuse of the system. Sensibilities should never guide your vote. Every decision made should start with asking 'do I/we have grounds to interfere with someone's freedom' and if those grounds are "I do not want to be offended" then that's a very weak basis for legislation.

    Perhaps controversially, but IMHO suicide/euthanasia and abortion can only really be made subject to the social contract in terms of 'offended sensibilities", because there are no injured parties involved that can conceivably be considered parties in a social contract. Hence 3rd parties (as personified by the state) really have no business interfering.

    And no, it's not water-tight and I look forward to this being challenged. I am sure there are many awkward edge cases that would follow from driving these ideas to their logical conclusion.

    HackneyedScribe - Was China really that far ahead of everyone else in the past?
    Post 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    No, I don't. The slaves had to eat, and since they had no money, it had to be provided for them. I don't need to proved that the Scythian police needed air, or water to drink either. If you know of any slaves who were forced to buy their own food and clothing. I would you to provide that information..

    If slaves have no money then their "wage" is equivalent to just their upkeep. If you think slave masters provide for their slaves more than what slaves earn for their masters, I would like you to provide that information.

    Was the money paid directly to the slave or to the person who owned the slave? Doesn't all the property of a slave belong to the owner? Ifnthd money was paid to the owner, ornrhr slave turned over all money to the owner, then the owner would have to provide the food and clothing for the slave. If thr Mone was given directly to the slave, then yes, perhaps the cost of food and clothing was taken from the slaves wages

    If money was given to the slave owner: Slave workers earn nothing but their upkeep
    If slave masters take money from their slaves: Slave upkeep comes from the money they originally earned anyways

    Either way it doesn't make slaves earn more money than what's shown on paper.

    If you want to apply thr logic, then it applies to all ships, not just Roman ships. Dismmis the claims fornrhe Roman ships, we equally can dismiss claims for the Song and Ming ships as well.

    That's your logic, don't you already do that? As I said for the third time, I'm not using my logic. In fact I'm using yours and applying it to Roman shipping rather than Chinese ones.

    We do have Romans ships that were 400 tons, and I.said, we don't need to provide an example fornevery shipping run they sailed. The logic says there were no large ships from the early Ming, and the largest Song ship we have evidence for is a mere 300 tons, so we can't ships any larger actually existed in Song and Ming China.

    It sounds like you want to discard the practice of solely using archaeological evidence to prove the existence of large ships. In which case Simaqian recorded that Tower ships were over 10 zhang high.

    Yue and Han were using ships for combat, Kunming Lake was greatly repaired.... Tower ships were built, over 10 zhang high, when a banner is added on top, then they are very magnificent.

    As a matter of fact, some analysis of the contemporary evidence does indicate that Zheng He treasure ships were only 300 tons, consistent with the Chinese shipwreck remains we have found (Nanhai No. 1 shipwreck). Contemporary records mention 2000 Liao ships. Which works out 300 tons depending on the value you assign to the Liao. The Madrague de Giens supports the existence of 300 tons ships mentioned in the Roman written records. And the Lake Nemi and Caligula Giant ships do support the existence od 1400 tons ships like the Isis mentioned in the written refords. The hulls of the Lake Nemi ships were lined with lead, which served no purpose in fresh water, indicating the 60 meter hulls were adapted from sea going vessels of that size.

    Contemporary evidence shows that Zheng He's Treasure ships were 5000 liao in size (1250 tons), not 300 tons, as you should well know considering you participated here:

    Sally K Church:
    A ship of about 200-250 ft would make much more sense than the 450 ft one. Such a ship would be large enough to transport the required number of people and amount of supplies and treasures. Although this was the maximum size of wooden ships in the West, this is not the reason why we should accept it as an optimum size. Gong Zhens evidence is perhaps the soundest his statement that there were 200-300 men on the ships. This number of men could not have man- aged a ship of 20,000 tons, but would have been quite adept at handling ships of a smaller size, such as the Razee Corvette, a Ship-of-the-Line manned by 205- 220 men, or the Fifth Rate (46-gun) ship with a complement of 280-300 men.The Razee Corvette was 145 ft long, and 38.5 ft in the beam with a burden of 944 tons and a displacement of 1,280 tons. The Fifth Rate was over 150 ft long and 40 ft in the beam with a capacity of 1,063 tons burden and a displacement of 2,154 tons.132 Ships that are too large also have certain disadvantages, foremost among which is a loss of maneuverability. This lesson was learned by the Spanish Armada

    She didn't have the evidence from Hong Bao's tomb which was excavated after her article. The tomb gives the first primary source evidence which says that Zheng He had 5000 liao ships, which is equivalent to 1250 tons burthen and 2000 tons displacement. This coroborrates with Sally K.'s estimation using Gong Zheng's quote that the ships were crewed by 200-300 men, from which she concludes that a ship of 300 crewmen would be the size of a fifth rate ship (1063 tons burthen, 2154 tons displacement, 150 feet in length). Still very large for the time period.

    Genava - Is it Game Over on the climate front?
    Post 3
    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post

    Am i now completely bonkers or did that lady just say her trees are 500 times more efficient in filtering out CO2 of the atmosphere than natural trees?

    Every industrial nation should be obliged to build those things asap!


    With the advantage to reduce both greenhouse gases accumulation and air pollution.

    Scientific research:
    Cheap catalysts turn sunlight and carbon dioxide into fuel

    Stanford researchers create new catalyst that can turn carbon dioxide into fuels

    Scientists create 'artificial leaf' that turns carbon into fuel

    This former playwright aims to turn solar and wind power into gasoline

    With the advantage to store renewable energy in chemical compounds easily applicable to transportation.

    Cookiegod - Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead
    Post 4
    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    AT published some articles a while back and predicted this would happen. Not to worry, Bolivia will just elect another socialist and expect a different result.

    Yup, that sounds legit:

    Illiteracy rates:
    2006 13.0%, 2018 2.4%

    Unemployment rates
    2006 9.2%, 2018 4.1%

    Moderate poverty rates
    2006 60.6%, 2018 34.6%

    Extreme poverty rates
    2006 38.2%, 2018 15.2%

    Bolivia was such a great country until Evio Morales stepped in.
    The opposition candidate Carlos Mesa used to be the president of Bolivia until he had to step down due to his government selling out Bolivia's resources for no gain of its people. So how much better was the country when he lost power in 2005?

    Oh right:
    Illiteracy rate: 13.0%
    Unemployment rate: 9.2%
    Moderate poverty rate: 60.6%
    Extreme poverty rate: 38.2%

    But surely a socialist is always going to ruin the economy:

    But hey, at least all that Lithium will be able to flow out freely from the country without first creating jobs. Because I'm willing to bet that this is one of the first decisions that's going to be reversed by the coup "government".

    saxdude - Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead
    Post 5

    The straight facts of the matter is that Evo's goverment was the superior goverment, seeing increases in economic prosperity, self determination, racial equality and education. What is also a fact is that instead of grooming a successor, Evo took on a paternalistic role in Bolivia when he could have easily renounced the presidency while keeping his party in office, choosing instead to commit unneccesary fraud and shooting himself as well as the rest of Bolivia, in the foot. That or you know... do something to actually support his continued power in the region.
    What is also a *fact* is that whatever legitimacy the anti-fraud movement had is being lost, as religious right wing fundamentalists and facists begin to take control and polarize the people with evangelist and racial retoric, such as those pronounced by the now Constitutional President Jeanine Aez.

    In the coming weeks we will see how things develop, but it seems quite likely things are moving towards a worse place, as a legitimate protest turns into a coup.
    An extra factoid is that HH has the worst takes, as per us'.

    I trust those people in this thread opposing imperialism and foreign intervention and upholding the rights of the indigenous population will act the same way regarding Europe...
    Pray tell what european country has an even remotely similar situation going on within it's borders?

  2. #2
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    The Tribunal

    Default Re: POTF 18 - Vote


  3. #3
    Flinn's Avatar The Alpha Jester!
    Patrician Citizen Content Emeritus Gaming Director Modding Staff

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    Default Re: POTF 18 - Vote

    as well
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22& Socrates1984; of the Imperial House of Hader

  4. #4
    Flinn's Avatar The Alpha Jester!
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    Default Re: POTF 18 - Vote

    Congrats to HackneyedScribe for winning PotF 18

    PotF 19 voting poll and PotF 20 nomination thread will be up during weekend!
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22& Socrates1984; of the Imperial House of Hader

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