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Thread: An answer to all questions

  1. #1
    b0Gia de Bodemloze's Avatar Europa Barbarorum Dev
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    Default An answer to all questions

    18-11-2019
    Hello to all Europa Barbarorum Fans,

    The past:
    It's a long time since you had some serious news about the development of Europa Barbarorum. The sad truth is that the latest versions that I released the last 2 years didn't meet any expectations including mine.
    Every version that I released after the release of EB 1.3 for some reason failed. Including 1.31 and 1.32 series. I don't know if the modding of EB after 6 years exploded my brain (overdose of EB modding) because serious modding of EB it's really really complicated and requires serious brain power.
    It could be also related to the fact that 2 years before I emigrated to an other country plus some serious personal problems and loss of motivation.

    Now:
    Thanks to the rest of the team, we managed to recover and all this time they have continued to produce material that is yet to be released. This includes the many new units plus a lot of other stuff.
    Recently I took the hard decision to scrap everything and remod everything from scratch. I also deviced to write a kind of diary explaining at least the basics:

    EB Diary
    27-10-2019
    EB FINALE project started


    29-10-2019
    Data Folder
    ->models_engine; siege engines
    ->terrain; removes white area under cities etc
    ->textures; removes red line from battlefield


    EB Folder
    1-11-2019 - today
    ->*****************************Night Battles Mod*****************************
    models_unit\attachments
    models_engine
    models_effects
    descr_effects.txt
    descr_effects_engine_torch.txt
    descr_effects_torch_fire.txt
    descr_battle_map_lighting_and_fog_control.txt
    descr_daytypes.txt
    descr_skydome.txt
    models_building\textures\glowing
    ->*****************************Watch Tower Mod*****************************
    expanded_bi.txt
    SHARED.TXT
    strat.txt
    tooltips.txt
    ->*****************************Reform Mod*****************************
    EXPORT_ADVICE.TXT
    export_buildings.txt
    EXPORT_DESCR_ADVICE.TXT
    EBBS_SCRIPT.txt
    ->*****************************Renaming Mod*****************************
    alexander_regions_and_settlement_names.txt
    REBEL_FACTION_DESCR.TXT
    export_units.txt
    ->*****************************Traits & Ancillaries*****************************
    export_VnVs.txt
    export_descr_character_traits.txt
    ->*****************************Fixes*****************************
    export_descr_sounds_prebattle.txt
    descr_model_strat.txt
    ->*****************************Obsote*****************************
    LOOKUP_CAMPAIGN_DESCRIPTIONS.txt
    battle.txt - obsolete
    shortcut.txt - obsolete
    export_descr_sounds_units_voice.txt
    descr_aerial_map_bases.txt
    models\textures
    ->*****************************Prefered Originals*****************************
    DESCR_BATTLE_MAP_MOVEMENT_MODIFIERS.TXT
    descr_mount.txt
    descr_projectile_new.txt
    descr_particle.txt
    descr_formations.txt
    descr_formations_ai.txt
    Well that basicaly means that all these files I checked from zero basis (from scratch) and remod them.

    Future:
    Now they are included to the first base build of project "EB FINALE". The first version is planned to be a playable version of all the material released until now and the second and final version, with all the new material.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards,
    EB 1.3 Team
    Under the Patronage of Veteraan.
    Proud member of Europa Barbarorum 2 team, developer of EBNOM, developer of EB 1.21, developer of Diadochi Total War, developer of Hegemonia City States and creator of one modpack for Megas Alexandros.


  2. #2
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    I would not say that "every release" failed. Not at all. There was perhaps less improvement but that doesn't make the releases a failure
    DIE: Diversity, Inclusion, Equality (Pun on SJWs, I am not far-right)
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    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.

    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  3. #3
    b0Gia de Bodemloze's Avatar Europa Barbarorum Dev
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    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I would not say that "every release" failed. Not at all. There was perhaps less improvement but that doesn't make the releases a failure
    Every release after 1.3 build, 1.31a - today.
    The best version that I ever released was 1.21a
    Under the Patronage of Veteraan.
    Proud member of Europa Barbarorum 2 team, developer of EBNOM, developer of EB 1.21, developer of Diadochi Total War, developer of Hegemonia City States and creator of one modpack for Megas Alexandros.


  4. #4

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    It's very great to know where the project has come so far, since I'm waiting for so long. Hope that EB Finale can be released soon!

  5. #5

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    How far along would you say you guys are (e.g. 10%, 30%, 99.999% etc)?

    Also keep it the good work man, i'm pretty much considering this mod release and bannerlord to be the only games i'm excited for lol

  6. #6
    b0Gia de Bodemloze's Avatar Europa Barbarorum Dev
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    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Well our unit creators reached the limit of unit slots so around 40 new units. So about units we are around 99% finished. About the rest regarding text editing shouldn't be too much for the first version of EB finale. I work the last 3 weeks so I need to check which files are left to finish.
    Under the Patronage of Veteraan.
    Proud member of Europa Barbarorum 2 team, developer of EBNOM, developer of EB 1.21, developer of Diadochi Total War, developer of Hegemonia City States and creator of one modpack for Megas Alexandros.


  7. #7

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    I can appreciate how difficult it could be to mod something as complicated as EB. Thank you for your continued efforts Boogia and other members of this team.

  8. #8

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    I'm not sure what I should be expecting but it is nice to see you guys in the final stretch.

    It'll be nice to see "EB - Finale" on the title screen.

  9. #9
    b0Gia de Bodemloze's Avatar Europa Barbarorum Dev
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    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    I believe we are getting closer to the release of the first part of EB finale. I will check tonight and I will update you.
    Under the Patronage of Veteraan.
    Proud member of Europa Barbarorum 2 team, developer of EBNOM, developer of EB 1.21, developer of Diadochi Total War, developer of Hegemonia City States and creator of one modpack for Megas Alexandros.


  10. #10

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Quote Originally Posted by b0Gia de Bodemloze View Post
    I believe we are getting closer to the release of the first part of EB finale. I will check tonight and I will update you.
    Wow, great! I can't wait! And so many thanks to you guys' work!

  11. #11
    b0Gia de Bodemloze's Avatar Europa Barbarorum Dev
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    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    First serious try after years! to restart modding of EB 1.3 started today. EB Finale part 1 released!
    Under the Patronage of Veteraan.
    Proud member of Europa Barbarorum 2 team, developer of EBNOM, developer of EB 1.21, developer of Diadochi Total War, developer of Hegemonia City States and creator of one modpack for Megas Alexandros.


  12. #12

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Nice to see progress. Are there patchnotes available?

  13. #13

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Are there any chances youll add in the battle stat system russian version or EB triari has implemented? I have seen it in couple of others mods aswell all thought they didnt have as much polish as EB.
    Its basicly that all units have most of their defense stat in defense skill making them hold the line longer, decreasing the causaulties they take from front but because its defense skill stat it doesnt apply to their back and sides making flanking all futher positioning that much more meaningful.

  14. #14

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Flanking is already sufficiently meaningful in EB, you can easily crush one flank with adequate javelin firepower. Increasing d
    isproportionally the defence skill has the much unwanted side effect of shifting the balance towards archers and cavalry, something that nobody wants: archers are fine right now, and cavalry superiority is already most of the time the deciding factor in land battles.

  15. #15

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Didnt have that experience with the mods that alter defense stats, archers still do the same damage as before and cavalry can do even less if the units turns but without it it does the same. Although its true that thanks to its defenses it doesnt die when facing the enemy as easily, increasing its sustainability, you dont wanna go in with too many archers, skrimishers or cavalry, because you need units to hold the line, since if they dont, your infantry will get flanked and die. Which is realistic and actually decreases the strenght of cavalry.
    Its really important to spread out your units if enemy has more units or simple distract some of the enemy units because when the defense stats are altered one of your side getting flanked and crushed is a very real possibility since simple one on one still matters but the units die much slower

  16. #16

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    This even means that having a few trash units is much better than having cavalry in your army because trash units can hold the line, buying you before your line of defense starts melting away as the enemy surrounds you. This goes for cavalry as well, having a weak spear unit behind your lines to catch the cav can completely dissable the much more expense cavalry, since if they get catched from side by spears they will die while the trash unit can hold their groun if they are facing the cavalry.
    All things considered if you are worried about cav being too strong, the defense stats actually help to increase the importance of line/infantry units

  17. #17

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Oh I almost forgot, even if they dont catch the cav by their flank and have to face the cavalry, they will hold much longer thanks to the defense stats, buying you time to push the front and send some units to help them.
    And this isnt just some theorizing, from my experience with triarii eb, if you have some units in the back, even bunch of stronger skrimishers and they tank a charge but break the formation of the cav, meaning now they are attacking the cav from all types of flanks, they can absolutely kill the cav off. This can sometimes absolutely disable your chances of completing hammer anvil charges with cav without loosing all of them.

  18. #18

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    Didnt have that experience with the mods that alter defense stats, archers still do the same damage as before and cavalry can do even less if the units turns but without it it does the same. Although its true that thanks to its defenses it doesnt die when facing the enemy as easily, increasing its sustainability, you dont wanna go in with too many archers, skrimishers or cavalry, because you need units to hold the line, since if they dont, your infantry will get flanked and die. Which is realistic and actually decreases the strenght of cavalry.


    In EB you still need plenty of line infantry and some reserves, because flanking is already a strong tactic and only the most disciplined units may hold the stress of fighting one enemy unit on the front and one on the flank without cracking in less than a minute. This is true even without factoring javelins in. For this reason, I find any effort in this sense unnecessary.

    That said, let's imagine that for some reason I get crazy and overnight I disproportionately increase the defence skill of every unit. Now let's picture a possible scenario.
    1) Defence skill increase = men die much slower. This means that the grind fest of two battle lines meeting will last even longer.
    2) However, in the RTW engine I don't need to kill every single one of my enemies to win: much better to rout them. Unfortunately, the morale effect of constantly losing men at a low rate over time is painfully low.
    3) What do I do to speed up the routing process? There are two ways of doing it: concentrated missile fire and cavalry charges.
    4) I take 2 extra archers or 2 extra cavalry, or even both if I feel confident. When the lines have met, I park all my infantry in guard mode forever, I swing archers/cavalry around the enemy formation and shoot/charge at the back of his men. Bonus points if I have heavy javelin cavalry: two or three volleys of javelins, and then charge to finish the dirty work.
    5) Meanwhile, the rest of the enemy units still have to fight their way through your infantry units in guard mode, because the rate at which the units die front to front is too low.

    Result = my army dies slowly, your army dies quickly and localised routs will at some point trigger a chainrout. Bye bye line infantry.

    Next time you bring more cavalry to stop mine from cyclecharging the backs of your men, and if you happen to win the cavalry engagement you start cyclecharging my men this time. Result = you win. The game thus becomes a race to get the strongest and most numerous cavalry arm possible, and just buy some cheap fodder in guard mode to hold the enemy in place until the cavalry arrives. Infantry becomes totally pointless because everyone dies to cavalry charges, and if you keep on turning to face my cav I'll kill your men from behind with my infantry. The only non-pointless infantry units then are high-quality pikemen, and maybe elite archers that can actually threaten cavalry at a distance; at this point the game revolves into watching two phalanx lines poking each others for 30 mins while you wait for a weak spot to charge your cavalry at and try to shoot at his cavalry with your archers.

    That's incidentally how EB multiplayer used to play out in 2008-2009. Then the rebalanced EDUs came out and finally light and medium cavalry, elite infantry and skirmishers became viable. The changes included a slight increase in the defence skill of some units (mostly light units), but NOT in a uniform manner and, most importantly, NOT by a big number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    This even means that having a few trash units is much better than having cavalry in your army because trash units can hold the line, buying you before your line of defense starts melting away as the enemy surrounds you. This goes for cavalry as well, having a weak spear unit behind your lines to catch the cav can completely dissable the much more expense cavalry, since if they get catched from side by spears they will die while the trash unit can hold their groun if they are facing the cavalry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    All things considered if you are worried about cav being too strong, the defense stats actually help to increase the importance of line/infantry units


    I don't get it. Why having more trash units would benefit the game? Trash units get walked over by cavalry if they get pinned. As a matter of fact, every unit gets walked over by cavalry if it gets pinned. Your second point is invalid, because cavalry is much more mobile than spearmen, and the spearmen cannot protect all your rear at the same time. On top of that, archers can completely shut down moving units that expose their flanks or rear to the shooting arc really fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    Oh I almost forgot, even if they dont catch the cav by their flank and have to face the cavalry, they will hold much longer thanks to the defense stats, buying you time to push the front and send some units to help them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    And this isnt just some theorizing, from my experience with triarii eb, if you have some units in the back, even bunch of stronger skrimishers and they tank a charge but break the formation of the cav, meaning now they are attacking the cav from all types of flanks, they can absolutely kill the cav off. This can sometimes absolutely disable your chances of completing hammer anvil charges with cav without loosing all of them.


    Having a skirmisher units in guard mode hold off cavalry charges has been an issue plagueing EB for years and years. It's mostly gone now, thanks to the aforementioned EDU changes, and it's something that I don't want to see coming back.

  19. #19

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    From what I know triarii has skrimishers and archers rebalances so they are more like they are in eb2 meaning they will do some damage but cant completely shutdown whole squads of infantry, although they can severely damage cav thanks to their low numbers.
    The grind fest? I prefer it to be longer rather than watching units rout and die almost instantly, this seems more realistic but it boils down to personal preferences.
    How would trash units benefit the game? Army composition. If you want all your armies be made of elite soldiers, sure good for you but then you are using only a small portion of the games unit pool. This gives use and meaning to the weaker units aswell.
    I have experienced this in singleplayer so I doubt the ai was holding skrimishers in guard mod, it was more of my cav breaking their formation and then getting runned down by bunch of skrimishers who outnumbered them. Point is suddenly I couldnt just trash their back and anvil them because killing all the skrimishers actually took some time because they didnt insta rout and their big numbers were enough to stagger my cav and then gang up on them, despite having cav superiority. While I suspect this wouldnt happen if I had for example catapracts, it changed the game from being, take cav, rout enemy to me having to look for significant weakness in their position to be able to pick them apart. And this was me playing vs the AI mind you.
    Overall it made fighting ai much harder

  20. #20

    Default Re: An answer to all questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    From what I know triarii has skrimishers and archers rebalances so they are more like they are in eb2 meaning they will do some damage but cant completely shutdown whole squads of infantry, although they can severely damage cav thanks to their low numbers.


    That's a different matter altogether: at this point it's two changes that you're proposing, the defence skill increase and the missile rebalance. I can't say anything about those mods because I haven't played them. Could you post a random archer (e.g. Toxotai Kretikoi) EDU entry so that I can see the differences? Many thanks.
    The grind fest? I prefer it to be longer rather than watching units rout and die almost instantly, this seems more realistic but it boils down to personal preferences.
    [/QUOTE]

    Well' I'm not even sure anymore we're talking about the same game. Are you 100% certain that you saw in EB "units rout and die almost instantly" just by fighting in melee face to face? This is not vanilla RTW, pitched battles without any flanking manoeuvres can go on literally forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    How would trash units benefit the game? Army composition. If you want all your armies be made of elite soldiers, sure good for you but then you are using only a small portion of the games unit pool. This gives use and meaning to the weaker units aswell.


    I didn't say that. I asked "why having more trash units would benefit the game", which is quite different. All elite armies are unwieldy, most of the times you need to mix up different types of units, but the increase in defence skill just reduces the gap between levies and elites - which in turn results in cavalry-heavy armies and levy spam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    I have experienced this in singleplayer so I doubt the ai was holding skrimishers in guard mod, it was more of my cav breaking their formation and then getting runned down by bunch of skrimishers who outnumbered them. Point is suddenly I couldnt just trash their back and anvil them because killing all the skrimishers actually took some time because they didnt insta rout and their big numbers were enough to stagger my cav and then gang up on them, despite having cav superiority. While I suspect this wouldnt happen if I had for example catapracts, it changed the game from being, take cav, rout enemy to me having to look for significant weakness in their position to be able to pick them apart. And this was me playing vs the AI mind you.
    Overall it made fighting ai much harder
    Several skirmisher units are by default in guard mode, and the AI never changes that stance, so maybe they were. Could you be a bit more specific here? I need some elements to correctly identify your case: what cavalry unit(s) you were using, what skirmishers the enemy deployed, how big the armies were and whether morale-boosting generals were involved in the battle or not.

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