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Thread: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

  1. #41
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    So in your mind popular will from 4 years ago > popular will today. Correct?

    Never mind the rump senate take-over and ignoring the house is disrespectful to a number of other elections.

    Learn the difference between proof and claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    So in your mind popular will from 4 years ago > popular will today. Correct?
    Yep. Election results even show Eva failing to gain 50% of the vote. Obviously there is much opposition against him. The referendum was four years ago but is still binding.

    Never mind the rump senate take-over and ignoring the house is disrespectful to a number of other elections.

    Learn the difference between proof and claim.
    I know the difference fine. Its you who seems to have this trouble with proof and claims. Still waiting on that bet you made.

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    You made the claim, so you back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    You made the claim, so you back it up.
    I posted my source and its rather clear. Where's your evidence again? I'm still waiting for you to prove the treaty is part of the Bolivian Constitution.

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    I'm telling you even as a layman, that international treaties don't apply just like that. To join a treaty a country needs to sign and ratify it. It becomes domestic law in its own right. For fundamental treaties concerning e.g. human rights, those are set in stone in the constitution.

    This is how this is done EVERYWHERE. Except of course, according to you, Bolivia. Nah, Ima call BS. The bet I made makes burden of proof easier for you. I am not going to waste time on proving a completely pointless claim of yours wrong. But you can and should. When I refer to constitutions, treaties, etc., which I have multiple times, both on this forum and elsewhere, I do look up the texts and make sure I'm not talking BS. If I can check out the constitution of Ukraine and the UNCLOS, then there's no excuse for you whatsoever not to do your due diligence.

    Never mind the fact that your concern for democracy and constitutionalism evaporates the moment the new regime is concerned, so there's that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I'm telling you even as a layman, that international treaties don't apply just like that.
    Hey i'm not disagreeing with you on this point but it was the Bolivian court who referenced an International treaty for its ruling.

    To join a treaty a country needs to sign and ratify it. It becomes domestic law in its own right. For fundamental treaties concerning e.g. human rights, those are set in stone in the constitution.
    It doesn't become domestic law as much as the country who signs it is bound internationally to it. Its international courts who deal with international law like the UN or ICC. Not domestic courts.

    This is how this is done EVERYWHERE. Except of course, according to you, Bolivia. Nah, Ima call BS.
    No its not. The US Supreme Court for example has never cited international law in its rulings. Only Constitutional law.

    The bet I made makes burden of proof easier for you. I am not going to waste time on proving a completely pointless claim of yours wrong.
    If you make a bet you make a claim by taking a position. If you can't prove it then its false. Not my problem if you can't prove your own claims.

    But you can and should. When I refer to constitutions, treaties, etc., which I have multiple times, both on this forum and elsewhere, I do look up the texts and make sure I'm not talking BS. If I can check out the constitution of Ukraine and the UNCLOS, then there's no excuse for you whatsoever not to do your due diligence.
    There's nothing stopping you then from posting the part of the Bolivian Constitution that includes the treaty. You are the one who said the treaty was likely part of the Bolivian Constitution, not me. Burden of proof is on you.

    Never mind the fact that your concern for democracy and constitutionalism evaporates the moment the new regime is concerned, so there's that.
    Don't criticize me when you ignore tye constitution to suit your win bias and continue to ignore the popular will expressed by the Bolivian people.

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    So you told us repeatedly treaties are simply signed and not put into domestic law. Got news for you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia on the American Convention on Human Rights
    Chapter I establishes the general obligation of the states parties to uphold the rights set forth in the Convention to all persons under their jurisdiction, and to adapt their domestic laws to bring them into line with the Convention.
    This was too easy.

    Well then, let's move on. You claimed repeatedly that Morales packed the constitutional court with his stooges. Right, let's have a gander:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia again because I am lazy
    Members of the Tribunal are chosen by national nonpartisan election; the first election was held on 16 October 2011.
    I actually trusted you that the Bolivian government selects the judges, because that's how it's done elsewhere. Shame on you for telling us lies.
    After that ruling, him running as a candidate had to also be approved by the Plurinational Electoral Organ. It follows from your claim that Morales would have had to pack that one as well:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiwikiwiki
    The Supreme Electoral Tribunal oversees elections nationwide. It consists of seven members, six of whom are chosen by the Plurinational Legislative Assembly and one designated by the President. There are also six alternate members chosen by the Assembly.
    Well for one (1!) out of seven that holds true.

    Now that you have already been proven to be telling some BS, you get to have some fun: https://web.archive.org/web/20110126...nstitucion.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    So you told us repeatedly treaties are simply signed and not put into domestic law. Got news for you:
    This was too easy.
    It says it does but reality is a whole different situation and most nations don't apply the international treaty domestically. Venezuela is a great example of that. Nevermind there's nothing in the treaty itself declaring term limits to be against human rights as the Bolivian Court has claimed.

    Another question raised by this is whenever International law supercedes popular will and the Constitutions of various countries.

    Well then, let's move on. You claimed repeatedly that Morales packed the constitutional court with his stooges. Right, let's have a gander:

    I actually trusted you that the Bolivian government selects the judges, because that's how it's done elsewhere. Shame on you for telling us lies.
    After that ruling, him running as a candidate had to also be approved by the Plurinational Electoral Organ. It follows from your claim that Morales would have had to pack that one as well:
    Well for one (1!) out of seven that holds true.

    Now that you have already been proven to be telling some BS, you get to have some fun: https://web.archive.org/web/20110126...nstitucion.pdf
    I never claimed the Bolivian government picked judges and it was Axeodus's source that claimed the court is packed with loyalists and what you just posted doesn't prove that wrong at all.

    None of this changes what the Bolivian Constitution says regarding term limits nor the referendum you keep ignoring.

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Did the Republicans also purposely pack the court like Axedous just proved Eva did?
    Well yes they did actually by holding garland on some fantasy reason and yet passing on more less party line a list on unqualified hacks from the federalist society...

    In any case I reserve the right to revive this thread when an election fails to happen in 2 months. I don't think this coup was formally orchestrated by the US. I do think it is a coup. I do think Morales royalty screwed up by not properly reacting to the referendum rebuke. And that was doubling down on pushing for in the first place. That being said a man asked to step down by the military and a right wing opposition candidate with almost no base in charge via an unconstitutional process does not bode well. I can't honestly figure out who she was voted in with except a block of right wing parties and simply is where she is by default. A credible person would at least cede to the floor to Mesa who actually got votes.
    Last edited by conon394; November 15, 2019 at 03:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    None of this changes what the Bolivian Constitution says regarding term limits nor the referendum you keep ignoring.
    It proves everything you said about it being unconstitutional false. American convention on human rights requires member states to incorporate it into domestic law. Something which Bolivia has done.

    You have, so far, not provided anything to substantiate your claim about unconstitutionality. The one quote from a secondary source you gave us only works for you when you choose to believe an extreme interpretation of it that is at odds with how law is practiced all around the world. Citing the convention is not the same as basing it SOLELY on it.

    It is not possible for a court to base their judgements on anything but relevant domestic law. But they are allowed to cite other sources as to how THEIR law should be interpreted. E.g. there's nothing unusual about the Bolivian supreme court citing the convention when explaining how they decided the relevant human rights in their own constitution should be interpreted. Citing the convention is well and good, since this is where the law originally came from. In Germany you have courts occasionally citing everything, even medieval Danish kings.
    The Bolivian court decided that two parts of the constitution were at odds with one another, and decided that one part was more important than the other.

    None of this, however, is relevant in any other way than that this is a very poor justification by you to justify an unconstitutional takeover. You don't even deny it. Yesterday 5 native protesters were killed by the military and the police protecting a rascist usurper whose legitimacy is not even close to the gray zone. You care about constitutionality in one case, even though the popular will was clear, but you completely on it the moment your fave gets in, and you keep on it even as you know what she's doing with it now.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; November 16, 2019 at 04:10 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Even the Grey lady seems to be opening its eyes a bit.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/15/w...gtype=Homepage

    Any takers on odds for elections in 2 months? I betting not outright canceled but security concerns cause a delay.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    It depends on how long it will take the regime to "reconstruct democracy". E.g. changing the system in favour of the right wing conquistadors as much as possible. MAS will have to be persecuted to ensure it cannot threaten the outcome, for example. They're hard at work on that one.
    One has to be patient. "Satan" only left a few days ago. The country needs an exorcism and she with the military, the police and presumably the cartels are very willing to give it, no matter how much sacrifices of the people it takes.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; November 16, 2019 at 11:35 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    So here's the new president with no legitimacy except for the backing of the military (see the guy who's fastening her ribbon?) and the police (look to the right of her), and she's not even hiding it.
    Actually it follows the rule of succession since the others in the government left their jobs without organizing the transition. The only ones not following the constitution and the laws are Evo and his ministers. They didn't have the right to quit like this.
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Actually it follows the rule of succession since the others in the government left their jobs without organizing the transition. The only ones not following the constitution and the laws are Evo and his ministers. They didn't have the right to quit like this.
    She was nowhere near the succession list. She made herself president of the senate with almost no senator present, with not enough votes to pass the quorum. After having declared herself president of the senate in breach of the law, she THEN decided she was in the succession list. Since she has no legitimacy whatsoever as the president of the senate, she doesn't have any as the president either.

    Evo and his ministers were told to quit by the military, in case you forgot. But I'd be very surprised if you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Actually it follows the rule of succession since the others in the government left their jobs without organizing the transition. The only ones not following the constitution and the laws are Evo and his ministers. They didn't have the right to quit like this.
    There was not a sufficient quorum for the new president to take office. Its south america you can hang around after the Military and police 'ask' your boss to leave? Its not rotary club Sergent at arms asked you to not run for president again.

    Again I'm not saying evo did not did dig his grave here. The far right are a fact of Latin America certainly so is the down side of being indigenous. But he had the ship of state on the right track. His problem was he made the kind of mistakes that allowed the far right to yell look its going to be like Venezuela, and the middle who were content started to wonder. That is what opened up this can worms. You might like the US but Evo could have and should have learned a from Washington and Adams.
    Last edited by conon394; November 16, 2019 at 03:51 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Btw. Áñez has declared that the soldiers putting down the demonstrations will be 100% free from all legal consequences. Hint hint nudge nudge keep shooting those redskins in the face for me please.

    @Vanoi, Aexodus, etc: Just wanna check: You still support this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

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    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Evo and his ministers were told to quit by the military, in case you forgot. But I'd be very surprised if you did.
    The military giving a suggestion to government during a national crisis is actually part of the law. Nobody told the government to quit like that, without respecting their own laws and rules. Williams Kaliman has never been an anti-evo or anti-indigeneous and has quit after the suggestion. There is only weird conspiracy theories about him being pro-US as always in Latin America where everything is seen from ideological glasses.

    She was nowhere near the succession list.
    She was in. It was already known when the government left that there was a chance for her to be president. If all the usual successors are leaving, it can become pretty weird like it is now.

    There was not a sufficient quorum for the new president to take office.
    If no one is following the rule, the assembly needs to come up with a solution. There is a law prohibiting the absence of government. By leaving like this, the Morales government made this situation where two laws were in contradiction but one was clearly superior to the other: the needs to have a government. It was mandatory.

    The far right are a fact of Latin America certainly so is the down side of being indigenous.
    Sure, when I was in Bolivia I was amazed of the tense between the different communities, very close to racism. But it goes beyond the opposition between self identifying as indigenous vs. non identifying as indigenous (seriously nobody is white there). A huge part of Bolivia is not filled with self-identifying indigenous and does not want to live the same way self identifying indigenous are living. Tarija and Santa Cruz for example. This is why most of the opposition was very regional.

    But he had the ship of state on the right track.
    Economically yes. Socially no.
    https://www.france24.com/es/20191018...es-evo-morales

    And seriously, I am really in favor of indigenous right but this is really horrifying to work with them and to see how they are terrorizing each other and excluding those having different views because of their clientelistic system. This was my biggest disappointment when I was there to help some communities accessing clean water. I totally understand their problem of being stigmatized for decades/centuries but they are nourishing a lot of hate against them, even in the heart of moderate Bolivians, because of their way to gain the upper hand in other communities and regions.


    Indigenous Politics in Bolivia's Evo Era: Clientelism, Llunkerio, and the Problem of Stigma
    https://www.academia.edu/7455110/Ind...blem_of_Stigma

    La figura del llunk’u y el clientelismo en la Bolivia de Evo Morales
    https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/...codigo=6756955

    ‘We were forgotten’: explaining ethnic voting in Bolivia’s highlands and lowlands
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...X.2018.1492371
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Fascinating. You're really making stuff up out of thin air.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Some call it resignation, some call it a coup.
    It was a military coup.Coup leader Luis Camacho is a far-right multi-millionaire who arose from fascist movements in the Santa Cruz region, where the US has encouraged separatism.List of active separatist movements in South America - Wikipedia

    Far-right Bolivian opposition leader Luis Fernando Camacho in the presidential palace with a Bible, after the coup. The Christian pastor at his side declared "Pachamama will never return to the palace-referring to the Andean Mother Earth spirit. Bolivia belongs to Christ"



    ---
    Christ 1-0 Andean Mother Earth spirit
    Christ wins. Amen.

    --
    Satan, Out of Bolivia!” – The Ritual of Camacho and His Sect ...

    A few days after the coup d’etat in Bolivia, after the forced resignation of President Evo Morales, followers of Luis Fernando Camacho met in the Plaza del Cristo Redentor in Santa Cruz de la Sierra to perform a sort of exorcism. “Jesus rules Bolivia,” those present exploded in jubilation at the end of the ritual.“Now we bind Satan … And we bind all the demons of witchcraft and send them into the abyss at this hour. We set a new time in the skies of Bolivia. Satan, out of Bolivia! Now! ”A preacher shouts from the stage.


    --
    Edit,
    Bolivia Coup - The Intercept
    The OAS is certainly being questioned, largely because of the role played by the United States and Brazil and Argentina.”

    A right-wing Christian opposition figure named Luis Fernando Camacho led violent protests targeting Morales’s Indigenous supporters and elected officials. An agribusiness and natural gas tycoon dubbed “Bolivia’s Bolsonaro,” Camacho is aligned with the Civic Committee movement and comes from an elite family with influence in the natural gas distribution business.

    Anti-Indigenous racism played a role in the violence. “Camacho is like many on the right wing in eastern Bolivia, who consider themselves white or white-ish,” Gustafson explained. “There is a long history of anti-Indigenous racism and a long history of fascist political organizing in Bolivia that is very much wedded to symbols of Christianity.”
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 16, 2019 at 05:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    It doesn’t actually seem like a coup took place in Bolivia. The military didn’t strongarm or force any resignations.
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