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Thread: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

  1. #61

    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Looks like we're back in the old days of U.S. backed right-wing governments in Latin America. Those were fun times, where non-whites enjoyed equal rights, the environment was safeguarded as were human rights in general, right? Right?
    What makes you think this was US backed? The guy did some pretty blatant stuff to stay in power, such as ignoring a referendum and bending the constitution.

    Ultimately, things happen across the Globe without US involvement, and I see no reason why you should assume the US had a major role to play in this one. In the end, plenty of countries have messed themselves up voluntarily without the having anything to do with it.

  2. #62
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    It proves everything you said about it being unconstitutional false.
    How? Term limits are still set by the Bolivian Constitution. Referencing other law doesn't make those term limits magically go away.

    American convention on human rights requires member states to incorporate it into domestic law. Something which Bolivia has done.
    No they haven't and what part of the ACHR bans term limits? Because many signatories to this treaty currently employ term limits like Mexico.

    You have, so far, not provided anything to substantiate your claim about unconstitutionality.
    The Bolivian Constitution is clear on term limits. Its unconstitutional.

    The one quote from a secondary source you gave us only works for you when you choose to believe an extreme interpretation of it that is at odds with how law is practiced all around the world. Citing the convention is not the same as basing it SOLELY on it.
    Except my source explicitly says they based it off the ACHR and not the Constitution.

    It is not possible for a court to base their judgements on anything but relevant domestic law. But they are allowed to cite other sources as to how THEIR law should be interpreted. E.g. there's nothing unusual about the Bolivian supreme court citing the convention when explaining how they decided the relevant human rights in their own constitution should be interpreted.
    ACHR again is not domestic law. And i'll ask again. What part of the ACHR says term limits are against human rights?

    Citing the convention is well and good, since this is where the law originally came from. In Germany you have courts occasionally citing everything, even medieval Danish kings.
    Where in the ACHR does it declare term limits to be against human rights?

    The Bolivian court decided that two parts of the constitution were at odds with one another, and decided that one part was more important than the other.
    Are you claiming they said that in their ruling? Because that needs a source.

    None of this, however, is relevant in any other way than that this is a very poor justification by you to justify an unconstitutional takeover. You don't even deny it. Yesterday 5 native protesters were killed by the military and the police protecting a rascist usurper whose legitimacy is not even close to the gray zone. You care about constitutionality in one case, even though the popular will was clear, but you completely on it the moment your fave gets in, and you keep on it even as you know what she's doing with it now.
    The only thing that is poor is you continuing to ignore a referendum and the Constitution solely because of your anti-US bias and bias for Eva. I bet if a right-wing president did the same things Eva did you'd change ypur tune in a second.

    Nothing constitutional about Eva's fourth term. They put it to a vote. The Bolivian people spoke and decided to not extend term limits. You can try to ignore popular will all you want but you just look like a hypocrite. But continue please making excuses for Eva.

  3. #63
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Nothing constitutional about Eva's fourth term. They put it to a vote. The Bolivian people spoke and decided to not extend term limits. You can try to ignore popular will all you want but you just look like a hypocrite. But continue please making excuses for Eva.
    And than his term was put t a vote and he won...
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  4. #64
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    And than his term was put t a vote and he won...
    Cool. His chance to change the term limits was voted down. Is it ok to ignore term limits and referendums as long as you win the next election? You still haven't answered my earlier post about setting a dangerous precedent like that.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    This is the problem with ideologues. They start out with disliking a politician/party/movement for its policies, which is all well and good, but then end up excusing everything and anything done by others against them. Such as an unconstitutional military take over. And yes, we have already been over this several times in this thread. Morales and his government were TOLD by the military to resign. The fact that they didn't spell out the "or else" publicly doesn't change everything else. Nor does the tying of politicians to trees and setting their houses on fire, threatening them with violence, as was done by the far-right paramilitaries with the backing of the police and military.

    Juxtaposed their leanient treatment of far-right racist paramilitaries we have their brutal clampdown on the protesters demonstrating for the biggest party in their country and the man who not only rightfully won the election, but whose current term wasn't even set to end this year yet, and who by the way arguably has been the most successful president of the country ever.
    It is impossible that any of the junta-supporters here can have missed this irony here - no matter their ideological blinders.

    Aside the fact that the junta is neither supported by the senate, nor the house, nor the people of Bolivia, the most important, and baffling fact here is that you are all supporting a ruler who has given her military total amnesty, and whose soldiers have killed dozens on purpose. You don't shoot people in the head with military grade ammunition if shooting to kill wasn't your intention.

    I get called right-wing by the people on the other fringe a lot. But it's in times like these where I'm glad that I'm not.
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  6. #66
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    This is the problem with ideologues. They start out with disliking a politician/party/movement for its policies, which is all well and good, but then end up excusing everything and anything done by others against them.
    I dislike Eva for violating the Constitution and a referendum. Not because of his ideology or policies. Do try again though.

    Juxtaposed their leanient treatment of far-right racist paramilitaries we have their brutal clampdown on the protesters demonstrating for the biggest party in their country and the man who not only rightfully won the election, but whose current term wasn't even set to end this year yet, and who by the way arguably has been the most successful president of the country ever.
    Being successful doesn't mean you get to ignore the Constitution or popular referendums. I like how you are trying to paint me as a supporter of the far-right but not agreeing with Eva's disregard of the Constitution and referendum doesn't make me a support.of the far right or right-wing.

    It is impossible that any of the junta-supporters here can have missed this irony here - no matter their ideological blinders.
    The irony here is you complaining about an unconstitutional military takeover while ignoring Eva who violated the Constitution and ignored a popular referendum.

    Aside the fact that the junta is neither supported by the senate, nor the house, nor the people of Bolivia,
    More claims with no evidence. Keep it up.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    I've already laid out to you why your claim about unconstitutionality has zero merit. You don't get to be the Bolivian supreme court, and your extreme interpretation of one sentence from a secondary source is a highly unlikely one. -> You have to choose to live in fantasyland to believe in it. Because there's not a place on earth where it works like that. The suspension of disbelief is strong in you and I'm not going to change it.

    The irony isn't me complaining about an unconstitutional military takeover, since my focus has always been that 1) I don't like military juntas, 2) I don't like oppression of natives, 3) I don't like demonstrators with legitimate grievances being killed by military. Which is fine by you obviously.

    Your only leg so far to stand on has been the claimed by you unconstitutionality of the referendum. All the political institutions of Bolivia disagree with you. Since that, according to your own words, is your reason to support the junta, that's where it gets ironic, but frankly more hypocritical for you to ignore the unconstitutionality of the take-over.

    Basically while I say moral standards are good, you say double standards have to be twice as good.
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  8. #68
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    This is the problem with ideologues. They start out with disliking a politician/party/movement for its policies, which is all well and good, but then end up excusing everything and anything done by others against them. Such as an unconstitutional military take over. And yes, we have already been over this several times in this thread. Morales and his government were TOLD by the military to resign. The fact that they didn't spell out the "or else" publicly doesn't change everything else. Nor does the tying of politicians to trees and setting their houses on fire, threatening them with violence, as was done by the far-right paramilitaries with the backing of the police and military.

    Juxtaposed their leanient treatment of far-right racist paramilitaries we have their brutal clampdown on the protesters demonstrating for the biggest party in their country and the man who not only rightfully won the election, but whose current term wasn't even set to end this year yet, and who by the way arguably has been the most successful president of the country ever.
    It is impossible that any of the junta-supporters here can have missed this irony here - no matter their ideological blinders.

    Aside the fact that the junta is neither supported by the senate, nor the house, nor the people of Bolivia, the most important, and baffling fact here is that you are all supporting a ruler who has given her military total amnesty, and whose soldiers have killed dozens on purpose. You don't shoot people in the head with military grade ammunition if shooting to kill wasn't your intention.

    I get called right-wing by the people on the other fringe a lot. But it's in times like these where I'm glad that I'm not.
    You should remember that pro-MAS militants are violent as well. I have seen indigenous manifesting against the Tipnis in 2012 being attacked by MAS militants. Seriously, left-wing and right-wing are both violent there. The MAS is the first party, you should be blind if you believe such a reservoir of activists and militants has not been involved in the general violence occurring everywhere.

    And than his term was put t a vote and he won...
    Your thoughts on this?

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  9. #69
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I've already laid out to you why your claim about unconstitutionality has zero merit.
    And i addressed it and laud out why you were wrong.

    You don't get to be the Bolivian supreme court, and your extreme interpretation of one sentence from a secondary source is a highly unlikely one. ->
    Neither do you. At least i have a source proving my claim. Where's yours again?

    You have to choose to live in fantasyland to believe in it. Because there's not a place on earth where it works like that. The suspension of disbelief is strong in you and I'm not going to change it.
    Name one other place please. You haven't proven once this is how international law works. Its just biased conjecture from you with no evidence behind it.

    You still haven't told me what part of the ACHR that makes term limits a violation of human rights like Bolivian court claims.

    The irony isn't me complaining about an unconstitutional military takeover, since my focus has always been that 1) I don't like military juntas, 2) I don't like oppression of natives, 3) I don't like demonstrators with legitimate grievances being killed by military. Which is fine by you obviously.
    Nice strawman at the end but ypur entire focus is on Eva except of course when he violates the Constitution or ignores a referendum. You have no problem with undemocratic actions when its someone you support doing it.

    Your only leg so far to stand on has been the claimed by you unconstitutionality of the referendum. All the political institutions of Bolivia disagree with you.
    Another claim with no evidence. You can try to ignore popular will all you want but the people of Bolivia spoke in 2016. Respect their wishes.

    Since that, according to your own words, is your reason to support the junta, that's where it gets ironic, but frankly more hypocritical for you to ignore the unconstitutionality of the take-over.
    I haven't once said i supported the opposition at all. Feel free to quote any of my posts. You are just making up arguments to claims i've never made while still failing to prove your own.

    Basically while I say moral standards are good, you say double standards have to be twice as good.
    Considering you're perfectly ok with Eva's undemocratic actions because of your support of him you don't get to talk about double standards or morals. Ignoring popular referendums and the Constitution is not moral nor is excusing the actions if Eva. Your entire position is a double standard.
    Last edited by Vanoi; November 17, 2019 at 12:45 PM.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    You should remember that pro-MAS militants are violent as well. I have seen indigenous manifesting against the Tipnis in 2012 being attacked by MAS militants. Seriously, left-wing and right-wing are both violent there. The MAS is the first party, you should be blind if you believe such a reservoir of activists and militants has not been involved in the general violence occurring everywhere.
    How many people have the pro-MAS protesters killed so far? Oh right, zero, vs 23+.

    Have they attacked the politicians directly with the support of the police, set their houses on fire, threatened them, tied them to trees and so on? Nope.

    Did Evo Morales promise the security forces a total amnesty in dealing with the opposition? No, he did not. Do I have to continue?

    Why are you defending the murder of civilians with legitimate grievances by security forces using military grade ammunition with the clear intent to kill?

    This would be hilarious if it wasn't for the dead people.
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  11. #71
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    How many people have the pro-MAS protesters killed so far? Oh right, zero, vs 23+.
    This leftist delirium tires me as much than the conservative one from B.W...

    Dozen of militants from the opposition have been killed during protests against the government the past decade. Multiple times the police has been used by Morales government to beat the protestants. When the protest comes from the MAS, the kills count from the police and the military goes to the right-wing but when there are opponents to the MAS killed, somehow the kills count vanish in oblivion. Yeah sure, the government of Evo Morales is crystal clear and pure, without any stain of blood (sarcasm).


    Have they attacked the politicians directly with the support of the police, set their houses on fire, threatened them, tied them to trees and so on? Nope.
    https://www.telesurtv.net/news/Seis-...0218-0001.html
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vIDZ_gwSRQ
    Last edited by Genava; November 17, 2019 at 01:46 PM.
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
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  12. #72
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Bolivia president resigns. Danger of civil war ahead

    Ten days ago, when the military pushed Bolivia's left-wing leader Evo Morales to resign, the country is sinking into a whirlpool of chaos and violence. More than 30 of his followers died in the riots, most of them apparently shot by soldiers and police. "It scares me," Morales said in a conversation with Der Spiegel in his Mexican exile.
    ...
    Añez accuses Morales of electoral fraud, which he vehemently rejects. Their supporters in the rich province of Santa Cruz have sparked a religious war against Morales and his followers, who belong to the indigenous population majority. They see in Morales a "Satan who occupied the presidential palace".

    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...a-1297528.html


    Only a question of time, when national emergency is declared and evil "communists/satanists" are taken in prevention cutody and disappear to nowhere...
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; November 21, 2019 at 01:00 PM.

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