Wheel of Time: TV show - (Books in spoilers).

[Gaidin]

The general idea if you want a good one is to look at the book Leviathan Wakes and compare it to the first 1.5 seasons of the Expanse when they start adding characters not in the book. And names of episodes aren't really ever going to be a good guide. Those can be symbolically vague. Especially with some hindsight thrown in.

[Halie Satanus]

Well, Amazon haven't dragged their heels, given the pandemic.



Looks spectacular, though maybe a bit to fantasy, yeh given the setting that was to be expected. I was hoping for a darker tone in the lighting and costumes. From the trailer everything looks a little bit too colourful and clean.

Not long to go though..

[conon394]

Looks spectacular, though maybe a bit to fantasy, yeh given the setting that was to be expected. I was hoping for a darker tone in the lighting and costumes. From the trailer everything looks a little bit too colourful and clean.

I kinda disagree I am tired of the dark and dreary look. People historically you did like them some colors and proper grooming. All the main characters are essentially high nobility or yeomen farmers at minimum they should all be looking not the deary peasant look.

[alhoon]

I kinda disagree I am tired of the dark and dreary look. People historically you did like them some colors and proper grooming. All the main characters are essentially high nobility or yeomen farmers at minimum they should all be looking not the deary peasant look.

It is not a historical setting but I agree that colorful seems best.

I didn't picture the inns and all so grandiose in my mind's eye to be honest though and the Aes Sedai don't look ageless in the trailer.
I can't say I am impressed by the production values...
I will still watch it though. Logain's escape was all the money.

EDIT: I know they wanted a big name for Moraine, but I don't see it in Pike. For starters, she's too tall and her skin is too pale. Most people we've seen are darker complexions, why would Cairhienin be as pale? Then, it is again: the lack of the ageless look.

[conon394]

Not sure you can win on skin color based on book description. The various nations were very over determined. At some point you have to roll with actor availability talent and budget first. It always a bit tricky with fantasy since you can't just roll into some town like say in rural Ireland if you want to do have a collection of potential extras or actor pool for your moody police crime drama set in some place in rural Ireland.

[Halie Satanus]

I kinda disagree I am tired of the dark and dreary look. People historically you did like them some colors and proper grooming. All the main characters are essentially high nobility or yeomen farmers at minimum they should all be looking not the deary peasant look.

Fair enough, certainly not a deal break. I'm invested enough to wonder how they cut down the meandering parts of the stories to keep the show moving along. The adaptation may well make for a better story than the books.

[alhoon]

Fair enough, certainly not a deal break. I'm invested enough to wonder how they cut down the meandering parts of the stories to keep the show moving along. The adaptation may well make for a better story than the books.

Blasphemy!!!!
The story in the books is awesome. I loved the long descriptions and reading the thoughts of the various people. WoT is harder to translate to screen as the stories are too narrative-focused. You can show-not-tell some things but not everything and 90% of the people would miss those.

[conon394]

Blasphemy!!!!
The story in the books is awesome. I loved the long descriptions and reading the thoughts of the various people. WoT is harder to translate to screen as the stories are too narrative-focused. You can show-not-tell some things but not everything and 90% of the people would miss those.

I dunno if they try to cram in everything there going to end up having Dune like thought narratives/voice over. That usually ends bad. They have a lot material in some ways it might be best depending on how much funding they think thay to do season where we follow on character after say the opening defining episode and ignore the rest and than just follow another in a different season even its essential the same time. But I afraid they will after the first book material get caught in jumping about and that like voice over ends badly for film vs books. By that I kind lean toward just linking the one or a couple key naratives up and following them through an arc.

Tying no spoilers but I guess what I saying more say the plot of Hunt I would hope no jumping even if one season one story for Red head and co, one for the Aes Sedai track each one ending all the pieces in place for some probably 2 part final.

[alhoon]

I dunno if they try to cram in everything there going to end up having Dune like thought narratives/voice over. That usually ends bad. They have a lot material in some ways it might be best depending on how much funding they think thay to do season where we follow on character after say the opening defining episode and ignore the rest and than just follow another in a different season even its essential the same time. But I afraid they will after the first book material get caught in jumping about and that like voice over ends badly for film vs books. By that I kind lean toward just linking the one or a couple key naratives up and following them through an arc.

Tying no spoilers but I guess what I saying more say the plot of Hunt I would hope no jumping even if one season one story for Red head and co, one for the Aes Sedai track each one ending all the pieces in place for some probably 2 part final.

It's impossible to cram in everything, but I hope they do something about the lore. Perhaps those options that when you stop the video an info card comes up like in Rome, or an info card with a bit of text between scenes like Attack of Titan or simply, a link that people could go to to get lore about the episode to those interested, written by the staff to avoid spoilers and conform with the show since they deviate from the books.
Visiting Wikipedia, there will be tons of spoilers and things may not match.

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Will we have 8 episodes or 6 for the first season? By 6th episode title, it seems we're late book 1, so if they cut it there it would mean that book 1 would break to two seasons.
8 episodes seems fine for the first book. And to be honest, with each episode being like 55 minutes, 8 x 55 = 440 minutes. That's more than adequate to cover the first book with minor omissions.

If they stretch the first book to two seasons, aside of being 2 years for just the first book, we're looking at 600-700 minutes for a 700 page, lore-heavy, description heavy book. There's not enough material for 12-14 55 minute episodes.

[conon394]

That's a lot filming. Just curious does anyone know how this times out against the I think two different JRRT projects one from Amazon and one form Net flicks?

[Ramashan]

It's impossible to cram in everything, but I hope they do something about the lore. Perhaps those options that when you stop the video an info card comes up like in Rome, or an info card with a bit of text between scenes like Attack of Titan or simply, a link that people could go to to get lore about the episode to those interested, written by the staff to avoid spoilers and conform with the show since they deviate from the books.
Visiting Wikipedia, there will be tons of spoilers and things may not match.

********************

Will we have 8 episodes or 6 for the first season? By 6th episode title, it seems we're late book 1, so if they cut it there it would mean that book 1 would break to two seasons.
8 episodes seems fine for the first book. And to be honest, with each episode being like 55 minutes, 8 x 55 = 440 minutes. That's more than adequate to cover the first book with minor omissions.

If they stretch the first book to two seasons, aside of being 2 years for just the first book, we're looking at 600-700 minutes for a 700 page, lore-heavy, description heavy book. There's not enough material for 12-14 55 minute episodes.

From what I'm seeing, it looks as though they are expanding on some things that were alluded to in the books. Like the Beltane festival seems to be playing out as well as some character building between Rand and Egwene as well as showing Egwene's woman hood ceremony (is that the right phrase?). There might also be some drawn out sequences involving the current false dragon and the history of the Dragon. But I could be wrong. If a script is traditionally 1 minute per page, then 1 minute per 700 page book seems doable. Guess we'll just have to see what they chose to show us.

[alhoon]

For WoT that much of the page is descriptions, yes a season per book is easily doable. But there are 14 books. Do you expect the show to last for 14 seasons? I expect covering books 1-3 to be faithful, books 4-6 to be deviating and 7+ to be long ways from the books... if we get to them.
I honestly hope they will cram book 2 and 3 in one season (season 2), 4-6 to two seasons (seasons 3-4), 7-9 in one season (season 5), 10-12 in one season (season 6) and 13-14 in a final 7th season.
3 books per season is literally a book per 3 episodes, so you have to cram 900-1000 pages in 150 minutes. THAT will get some heavy axing.

[alhoon]

Wheel of Time Episode 1:
Spoilers ahead, obviously. And I will probably throw spoilers from the book(s) as well.
Also, everyone is from memory more or less, so I may be wrong about stuff.

***

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The episode starts with Moraine blaming the Breaking on men striking out of arrogance and the women of the Aes Sedai left to pick up the pieces. As if the women of the Aes Sedai, some of them in the Forsaken Ranks BTW, are innocent of what happened in the Breaking and the Aes Sedai women didn't fight in the War towards that end.
Not a good start. I can understand it as Moraine's point of view, since she did think that men were responsible for more or less everything, but the first words of the "protagonist", before even the title screen are more or less "Men broke it, women are left to pick up the pieces."
Again, not a good start...

On the other hand the reds capturing the Mad Channeler is very... thematic. A good introduction to show what happens to men that can Channel. And what the reds do.
Was it an overkill to have like half a dozen reds for one wilder? Yes. But well, life isn't fair.

Something that took me by surprise is that we have... Four Ta'varen? Perrin, Mat, Rand and... ???
Laila seems as trolloc fodder to me, except if they give her Faile's plotlines. EDIT: Oh well, close enough. More interesting that way.
Also, where's Thom? I think he would have been introduced by now.
Nynaeve can... hear the wind and sense darkspawn? Even through her block? Strange.
Speaking of Darkspawn, during the attack, the Trollocs don't seem to be Linked to the Mydraal. They concentrate on eating people instead of kill & capture. oh well.
Moraine seems to have overchanneled, despite having a Sa'angreal. Eh? Did she got it later in the books? I think she had it from the get-go. It only showed the ring.

The concern:
Honestly, while it captures the spirit and all... I can't imagine an "uninitiated and casual" viewer (like my father) being able to follow it. There's literally a new language there to learn without that glossary in the back. Characters come to quickly and I doubt a casual viewer could easily remember who is who from the secondary cast.
Also, without the glossary in the back the "Assumptions" of people will lead them astray. In this world, desert people are like the Irish. Making parallels based on expectations is problematic.


The pet peeves:
Borderlanders are Asians. Or at least Lan is. Moraine is too tall and white. Two Rivers doesn't have homogeneity; Tam and Rand should be sticking out from the crowd of darker skinned people, but I see whites. At least, nobody else is red-haired. Rand ####ing Egwene.
Moraine getting hit by a mere trolloc out of a score or something. WTF? 2 years from now they will be clearing 10000 trollocs.

Sad but understanding about: The lack of ageless look in the Aes Sedai. But it really strikes me as odd.
Lan not having that weird warder's cloak.
Cutting the intro with the Dragon and the creation of Dragonmount and Lews Therin turning a bunch of people to stone...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

which is foreshadowing for the final spell used by Egwene, the Flame of Tar Valon, to keep the Tapestry together against Balefire, turning people to rocks.

Liked:
The reds and the male wilder. The non-conversation between the three protagonists about Egwene without Rand saying anything. Moraine warming the bath water - which reminded me that as an accepted she accidentally boiled an entire pot of water.
Perrin and Laila. Now he has a dark past which explains his reluctance to kill in the future.
Padan Fain's coolio, unmoved and totally unchanged smarmy look through the entire thing, from his arrival to Emond's field to the massacre.

The Nostalgia, obviously. Simpler times. When they didn't even know how Trollocs showed up so quick, lol.

Verdict on Episode one: 5 1/2 out of 7 seals.
Better than I feared, about as good as I hoped. It is not for beginners and casual viewers in my opinion though. They can watch it, but too much is lost and too much is left to the imagination.

Wheel of Time Episode 2:

Opening: The Children of the light are fanatics but they're not the Taliban. That's Masema and the Dragonsworn. Although I guess Masema may be cut. He added flavor to the series but didn't contribute seriously to any plot.

Nynaeve should have rejoined by the time they get to Shadar Logoth. I guess Min is cut from this season along with the entire Bae-something. The first real urban settlement they see.

Liked:
The One Power & Aes Sedai explained roughly but effectively.
The scattered ruins alleging to past and forgotten greatness.
The song about Manetheren, to give context to the ruins.

Pet Peeves: Moraine not doing the mist thing and the "not even 10 women in the Tower can pull that" and of course, killing a man with the One Power, even inadvertently. Her excuse about it was trash. She could simply pick him up and throw him elsewhere and sink the ferry without him. Or burn the ferry. Or throw it at the Mydraal.
Removing that Aes Sedai can use the One Power as a weapon against darkfriends and Shadowspawn without any justification.
I also didn't like that Moraine's warning that she will personally destroy the three (four I guess?) Ta'varen so that the Shadow can't take them. It wasn't "come or you will face the trollocs" it was "come or I will kill you."
Nynaeve ambushing a warder.

Sad but understanding about: Leaving Mordeth out. I guess Padan Fain will be changed by Mai-?? The black wind in the Ways.

[chriscase]

rating by Seals on the Dark One's prison. dude you are definitely a fan

I thought it was overall quite enjoyable. Not going to worry too much about the details for now. Some very nice locations and set pieces. Also appreciate giving Perrin a bit more substantial backstory. I thought the casting was quite good even if the Two Rivers folk are a bit diverse. Since we know Rand is Aiel and his coloring is sorta-kinda Ginger Scots-Irish, it makes sense for the Two Rivers people to look different from that. Not a huge fan of explaining Manetheren via just a lecture from Moiraine, but I supposed it's better than voiceover.

Yeah Padan Fain is supposed to be somewhere around Shadar Logoth but maybe we dont see it yet. Same with Nynaeve, who seems to catch up with the party late but IIRC it's actually around the same place as the book. Rand is irritatingly snooty but that's pretty true to the book too

[Halie Satanus]

Spoilers ahead: Watch the episodes before reading.

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Ep 1. Leavetaking.
First episode acting is a bit clunky, especially the delivery of dialogue, felt like they tried to cram too much in to the first 40mins. The attack on the festival looks good, though as far as I recall the book focuses on the attack on Tam/Rand rather than the town. Oddly, of the cast: Pike feels most out of place, delivery of dialogue feels clunky, something about her lack of confidence just feels off.

Ep 2. Shadow's Waiting.
They're on the run with a small army of Trolloc's in pursuit. Pacing/acting/dialogue is better in this episode. A lot happens and new characters are introduced but they give the dialogue more time with less information. Moraine is weakened after the attack on the festival, I think that explains why she couldn't take on the pursuing Trolloc's. The introduction of the White Cloaks was good, if a bit 'Spanish Inquisition.' Not sure their uniforms aren't a bit overly fantasy, that shoulder design looks a bit useless and the white is bit too white for my liking. Also, no helmets. 'Shadar Logoth' looked good, set wise. Not sure about the creeping shadow, could have done that better, a mist maybe.

Ep 3. A place of safety.
Best episode so far. Story wise the principle group are separated. The dialogue between characters is more focused and their personalities start to come out. The guys playing Perrin and Matt are starting to shine, which fits with the books. Matt and Perrin were always more interesting even when Rand is more developed. Thom shows up and makes an impression, I pictured him taller/slimmer but the actor has the mannerism down. The first sight of an Aiel (not Rand and dead) is interesting, when on the ground he does look afoot taller than most. We also get a first look at Padan Fain, though brief.

Overall: not a great start but gets better. CGI is a huge element and mostly good. Trollocs were always going to be difficult and the first sight of them is bit lacking, though improves. We haven't seen a Myrddraal in action yet so looking forward to how they deal with that, in the scenes we do see one, they look good. There's no lack of gore, though I did wonder if it felt out of place introduced so quickly. Not a fan of the music, feels a bit over done at times and lacks a strong central piece to tie scenes together.

[alhoon]

rating by Seals on the Dark One's prison. dude you are definitely a fan

I thought it was overall quite enjoyable. Not going to worry too much about the details for now.

That's the approach taken by the developers and... it kinda but not completely works. They stick to the soul of the books, the fight of Good vs Evil, the majestic locations and the characters. The rest they change and dress up. The characters, except Moraine and to an extend Mat act as I would expect them to; Rand is recognizably Rand, Egwene is Egwene, Nynaeve is Nynaeve, Perrin is Perrin and in episode 2 Mat is Mat and not a "generic friend of the protagonist".
Moraine feels a somewhat off - although it may be that I cannot see Moraine in a tall woman with pale skin. She feels less determined and sure of herself too. Up till the end of book 5 I wasn't 100% sure that Moraine was in the good side or the bad side. That doesn't come off in the show. Lan feels less... pragmatic and less "in sync" with Moraine. Sure, in the fight they are shown as totally synchronized, but it feels somewhat off compared to what we saw before and after. And gone are Lan's readiness to cut down the boys in a moment if Moraine said the word.
And yes, I will say it: Padan Fain is the most Padan Fain he could be.

If I had to say, a significant, perhaps the most significant, deviation from the book IMO is... that it doesn't feel the boys' lives are the mercy of Moraine that hasn't decided whether to kill them or not yet. In the books, around episode 2, the boys have been warned by Moraine-that-can't-lie that she would kill them before she sees them go to the Shadow. In the book, there's the feeling that the guys are running along with their potential executioner that they have to convince to NOT kill them yet.

Also appreciate giving Perrin a bit more substantial backstory.

I also liked that.

To be honest, I liked Moraine explaining Manetheren.

[King Athelstan]

Well, I just realised I've been pronouncing a bunch of names wrong all these years...

[Veteraan]

Well, I just realised I've been pronouncing a bunch of names wrong all these years...

I probably did too. Then again, I doubt Robert Jordan left an audio recording for all the names before his untimely demise.

[King Athelstan]

I used to go Egg-ween, and Nynna-eve etc, and of course my Norwegian point of view will have influenced especially place names

[Akar]

It's the whole "Hermoine" thing all over again.

Then again, I doubt Robert Jordan left an audio recording for all the names before his untimely demise.

I demand that all fantasy authors record how each and every made up word is pronounced - leave nothing to chance.