Wheel of Time: TV show - (Books in spoilers).

[alhoon]

Wonder how much of Mat's story line from The Great Hunt will be included. One of my all time favorite character lines but apparently not what they are going for.

My guess is "a few scattered scenes from the early chapters and mostly the last 2 chapters" from the Great Hunt where he

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

gets the dagger and blows the horn.

I believe parts of his Season 3 arc in the Tower would be pushed before that event.

To be honest, the great victory in book 2 and the temporary retreat of the Seanchan, while very satisfying ... it is something that can go to the chopping block.

I am trying to come to terms with how much will be cut out of those books that I love, but it is hard. Fitting three books of that size in 16 episodes, while adding new staff is a herculean task that is doomed to disappoint me, whatever decision they make.

There are honestly no good solutions here unless I get a billion $ so that I can pay the production to make the seasons 20 episodes each. Tough compromises and painful cuts are necessary.


* * * * * *
I wish, I honestly wish, they had made a new story in the Wheel of Time universe, one that touched the events of the books but was simpler and original. That would have me glued to the TV. I would be screaming about inaccuracies way more than I do for the series now, but that would be because I would be much more invested.

[alhoon]

According to this article https://www.tomsguide.com/news/the-w...-time-season-2 season 2 will not come until summer.
Those delays... slooowly give me hope that 2nd season would be better than the first. Not more faithful to the material unfortunately, but better. Also, I don't expect miracles, but I don't expect as much "WTF?!" as season 1.

Why? because more time in post production = better chances for better quality.

I am also more optimistic because frankly, books 2 and 3 are better than book 1.
I don't like the changes to the character personalities but the series get better from now.

However, for the third season I am worried again.
Fear of the PC-thugs will probably make the weak spined producers to make the Aiel culture more benign. Furthermore, budget-wise, they would have to put book 4 and half of book 5 in there which means a LOT of things will be compressed and cut out.
I believe Ravhin's and Morgase's arc from book 5 will disappear but then it makes taking out Ravhin kinda less momentous as it hides much of his horrific antics to remove how he turned a bunch of aristocrat women to Stepford wives and sex pets.

[alhoon]

https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/whe...ar-1235591561/


"Maja Simonsen (“Emily in Paris”), Ragga Ragnars (“Vikings”), Jay Duffy (“Hollyoaks”) and Rima Te Wiata (“Kiri and Lou”) have all joined the series for recurring roles. The actors will portray Chiad, Bain, Dain Bornhal and Sheriam Bayanar"



Chiad and Bain are Aiel. Sure, the main people that gave us the Aiel were often white but they are described as "sun-tanned" where the sun, the unrelenting sun, hits them. Aviendha was pale under her clothes but not THAT pale. Those first two women are white as ghosts. This is bad casting probably because we rightfully got angry with the person chosen to play Aviendha as if the problem was her skin color (PS. the problem is that Aviendha was supposed to be gorgeous, not simply decently good looking and she had blue eyes; she was described as dark in parts the sun hit).
I really hope they give these two actresses a decent tan else they will look foolish.

I had to check the wiki and the books to find out that Taraboners are non-dark. Since they are next to Altara, Illian and Tear, I expected them to be darker.

EDIT: From book 8, in the Royal palace of Andor, speaking about Ishara the first Andoran queen from whom all queens descent:
"scenes of Andoran victories and the faces of the land’s earliest queens, beginning with Ishara herself, as dark as any of the Atha’an Miere"

The Atha'an Miere" are as dark as the Sudanese. The Two Rivers (old tribes) are dark-whites. The nobility as with everywhere is probably trying to keep the lines clean.
There is no way Tigraine would be an albino like she was in the show or Elayne would be as white as an Irish woman locked in a cellar for years.

They flip the colors randomly at this point.

[conon394]

https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/whe...ar-1235591561/


"Maja Simonsen (“Emily in Paris”), Ragga Ragnars (“Vikings”), Jay Duffy (“Hollyoaks”) and Rima Te Wiata (“Kiri and Lou”) have all joined the series for recurring roles. The actors will portray Chiad, Bain, Dain Bornhal and Sheriam Bayanar"



Chiad and Bain are Aiel. Sure, the main people that gave us the Aiel were often white but they are described as "sun-tanned" where the sun, the unrelenting sun, hits them. Aviendha was pale under her clothes but not THAT pale. Those first two women are white as ghosts. This is bad casting probably because we rightfully got angry with the person chosen to play Aviendha as if the problem was her skin color (PS. the problem is that Aviendha was supposed to be gorgeous, not simply decently good looking and she had blue eyes; she was described as dark in parts the sun hit).
I really hope they give these two actresses a decent tan else they will look foolish.

I had to check the wiki and the books to find out that Taraboners are non-dark. Since they are next to Altara, Illian and Tear, I expected them to be darker.

Sorry can't muster caring. I am no particular fan of the books... but after that massively silly wall battle they opted for I can not muster much caring over actor skin tone the show plotting is just to bad and washes away minor issues. The simple fact is they lacked the budget and the writing skill to make the wall battle. But they added it. Let's be clear this not like doing the LOTR and putting Helms deep off camera. The Book as I recall provided a perfectly doable final quest with the part and off page Battle that we never even needed to see. As they come back we find simply find the locals elated over what was a last minute miraculous victory. THey messed up the easy button.

[alhoon]

"The crowds [In Caemlyn, the capital of Andor] were thick with foreigners, Kandori with forked beards and Illianers with beards that left their upper lips bare and Arafellin with silver bells in their braids, copper-skinned Domani, olive-skinned Altarans and dark Tairens, Cairhienin who stood out for their short stature and pale skins."

I knew it!!!
Andorans are not pale-skinned! I knew that casting Tigraine as pale as an Irish Albino was a miscasting! And so was Elayne being as white as a prisoner of Azkaban.
And again: Copper skinned Domani. The actress that plays Leane Shariff may have some Mexican heritage, but she needs more copper in make-ups etc, she doesn't seem copper-skinned at all. On the other hand, she is a good choice for further ahead when the stiff Leane suddenly embraces her beauty.

[conon394]

To be fair theoretically some gotta give when balancing acting skill and available actors and extras vs whatever a author can conjure up in your mind.Not defending the show like I said at best meh on it. I mean I still am perplexed and vbaffeded by altered end - they seem to serve no purpose at all.

[alhoon]

To be fair theoretically some gotta give when balancing acting skill and available actors and extras vs whatever a author can conjure up in your mind.

Finding a not-albino Tigraine was not hard, as she has a very minor role.
Furthermore, the actress that plays Elayne could have been someone properly darker. Grab a Southern Italian / Spaniard / Portuguese with a red wig. It's not like the actress had that extensive resume before being cast.

[conon394]

I never known anyone doing casting or having to run the logistics of it but I suspect its not quite that easy.

[Halie Satanus]

It's back.

First three episodes are promising, they seem to have worked out a balance of story building, character development and action. Scale was always going to be an issue (no cast of thousands), but the appearance of the 'Seanchan' has enough foreboding.

A lot happens in the three EP's and I felt like maybe I missed something from the end of the last season, but maybe that's just poor memory on my part. Does seem a lot of changes from the books..

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Selene is not introduced as per the book, no big deal I guess. But, maybe in the books it's more obvious she's not trustworthy. In the show, there's no indication she's anyone but an inn keeper in love with Rand.

The ball/dinner Rand attends. I feel like that was a much bigger deal in the books, the political posturing and consequences felt skimmed over.

Myrddraal - When Lan fights them defending Moraine, as far as an action scene goes it was pretty good, they were hard to kill, maybe not hard enough but close...

Padan Fain: we're not getting his story at all, other then the wake he's left behind. Maybe I'm miss remembering, but I thought his story journey and those he met, was in the books..

[Knight of Heaven]

Why they even bother to get the licence of an IP, just to do something completely different, desconstructive of the source material even thematically is substantially different. Whats with the threesomes in this, just a platform to explore the kinks of the show runner... its dumb.

If the aim is to capitalise on a pre existent fan base of the books, they fail in that too. What a waste.

[Halie Satanus]

Why they even bother to get the licence of an IP, just to do something completely different, desconstructive of the source material even thematically is substantially different. Whats with the threesomes in this, just a platform to explore the kinks of the show runner... its dumb.

If the aim is to capitalise on a pre existent fan base of the books, they fail in that too. What a waste.

To be fair, the source material can be ponderous and goes off on tangents, a lot. The show feels like a condensed version, which might not be a bad thing, in the long run.

The sexuality of the 'Aes Sedai' is pretty clunky in the books too. Using sexual freedom is an indicator of the shift in power to a matriarchal society, really it's just awkward writing.

[chriscase]

Yeah but if you have make changes, don’t take out the great things.

[alhoon]

About to start watching and I will bomb you here with my comments. So far before I even start: the first three episodes are 200 minutes. That's awesome. So, apparently the producers did get their wish for 10 episodes per season... in a way. As in, they will cram 10 episodes worth of time in 8 long episodes.

Now, about

Whats with the threesomes in this, just a platform to explore the kinks of the show runner... its dumb.

Ehhhhh...
1. In the books, we see the sexual fantasies of a 19 years old man that is not-so-slowly going mad. There was an implied foursome in one of such dreams.
2. Considering some things described in the books, threesomes are not out of the question. Modest Spoilers from the books 5, 6 and 9:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- Ravhin and his harem. Morgase even kinda remembers "playing" with another one of Ravhin's concubines. A former rival to be exact. Sammael even said he expected to see an orgy when he visited Ravhin. This is canon.
- Myrelle and her Warders. Considering her ways to ... comfort Lan (the real, stoic, dedicated Lan from the books) and how she is described it is kinda my expectation that she would not mind the occasional multi-fling.
- Two wise ones that marry an Aiel Chief. They are kinda important but I don't remember the names. Other wise ones were taking bets after a battle on whether one of the wives would check on her husband or the other wife first. This is a clear poly-relationship. Not explicitly stated if they all have sex together but not out of the question.
- Elaine and Avhienda. Sure, they became first sisters. But Elaine is bi-curious and probably bisexual. Considering how open Aiel are on that, and the specific relationship with Rand, they probably end up together in bed. Not sure if Min would also jump in - a man can only do so much.

3. Jordan was not shy from putting his kinks in the books. There are at least a few naked spankings in each and every book.


@Halie: I don't think a matriarchal society would have more "sexual freedom". I don't think that prudeness is tied to gender.

[alhoon]

As usual... I prefer the things they clearly added from the things they change.

Oh, and I found an issue with the episode: Aes Sedai cannot lie. It is physically impossible for them, not just a tennet. Which mean they cannot offer platitude or be sarcastic!
Serious, and I mean serious spoilers about book 12 (or 13, I don't remember):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No, seriously, this is heavy spoiler.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yes, I know Verin is Black. She would not so blatantly show she can lie, not in front of Adelas and two warders. And certainly not to be polite.

Specific comments
- I love Ishamael's actor. I kinda prefer TV version of Ishamael than the one in the books, to be honest.
- I still don't see where they go with Moraine being perma-shielded // Stilled. My guess is (major book 4 spoiler)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

they plan to cut out Siuan's stilling so perhaps it will be Moraine the one Nynaeve would heal

- Verin? Verin? But... was Verin introduced in the previous season? They drop her right there as if we're expected to know her.
- Loved Domon. I didn't like how they tangle him with Moraine. Unecessary change.
- OMG! NOW I see what @KoHeaven meant about the threesomes! No, that was too much. There's no way an Aes Sedai would be having a freaking orgy in front of a novice! OMG!
- Love new Sheriam. Love the interaction between the Aes Sedai about Nynaeve's block. Of course, that's from book 5 but eh.
- How Perrin's eyes turned to normal? They were already gold.
- Sammael's Shadowspawn after Domon already? Well... saves them a ton of time, I guess.
- The episode honestly contains... spoilers! Come on! Some of those watching will put 2+2 together.
- They made Verin Adeleas sister. O_O OMG. Oh, Light... Poor, poor Vandene. Left behind. Forgotten... My horror and sadness aside, this is a change that makes sense if you want to condence storylines and people.

________________________________________________________


Episode 2
Quite a disappointment compared to Ep1. They are mostly throwing scenes that are based on similar ones from books 2-3 together with some thin filler around them. It is quite a mess and they try to cram too many chapters in one episode.

- I am ... ambivalent about throwing in Selene the way they did.
- The previous episode ended with Egwene crying over Rand. This starts with Rand in bed with Selene... They are not trying very hard to make Rand sympathetic, do they?
- Rand working in a sanatorium. Man, that was an awesome touch. Unless that was not a sanatorium and he is simply hallucinating thinking of his future. Can't tell for sure.
- Accepted healing the sick? Really? -_^ I guess they would get their practice somewhere but I doubt they would allow them to practice on children.
- Hey! Tar Valon island was not shaped like that! It was very famously shaped like... well, like a vagina.
- Liandrin has a son in the show... Liandrin was very openly homosexual. What the... They are OK with Alanna explaining multi-weave using threesome analogies of juggling lovers but they bulk at a Red being Lesbian!?
- What Min saw from Mat is downright impossible without heavy alteration of either Mat or Mat/Rand dynamics. It honestly doesn't bode well.
- What the heck are the Seanchan doing attacking a random village in the night, without any provocation or reason?! That is NOT the way the Seanchan acted! They would show up in the bright morning with the sun shining and inform people they are back, after 1000 years. If the locals didn't swear then they would make an example of them right there. If the locals sworn, then the Seanchan would test girls and be gone before noon. What the Seanchan DID NOT do, is random raids for the lulz.
- The Deathwatch Guards, the rank-and-file Seanchan and the Sul'dam/Damane and the Da'covale were all good, but ... where are the Lopars? The Rak'en? The other monsters?
- LOLOLOL on how "someone disappeared, you end up babysitting Logain". Not bad, I guess. I doubt anyone that hasn't read the books would be aware of who 'arranged' for Rand to end up with a Saidin-user as teacher.

The sticking points for me were mostly Liandrin's son and the changes to Selene.
Liandrin's son does add depth to her character and I guess since they turned Moraine from bisexual to homosexual they can turn Liandrin from a man-hating Lesbian that found men disgusting to ... whatever she is now. But similar to Perrin's wife, I am "eh" about the change.

Verin's discussion with Moraine, Selene, the fight with the Seanchan ... they were much more dramatic in the book. Here they feel too rushed. Just the part that Verin tricked Siuan and Moraine to verify that Rand is the dragon was awesome in the books. Here it was... eh.

______________________________________________________________

Episode 3

Better than ep2. I am still "eh" about the changes to Liandrin. Time spent on her is time not spent on other things.
Sure, they give more depth to Liandrin but by now, they have taken like half the world-building away.

- Nynaeve's trials were appropriate. Not the same, but close enough. And there was enough screen time dedicated to them so the viewer could feel the strain.
Now, what happened NEXT... oh well. Apparently there is a little Rhuidean there (Book 4)
I wish they have kept my favorite part of Nynaeve screaming "I hate you!" and Sheriam smiling telling her "Every woman that passed through the arcs has said something like that to us."
- Now, THAT is how I expected Seanchan to attack a village! "Hello, we are here. We will take some girls and the rest of you will swear". I didn't expect SUROTH to show up for a random village but I guess they needed to throw her in.
- Egwene speaking as she did to Liandrin to a sister would have her deep, DEEP in trouble, whatever her promise. I'll leave aside the fact that she channeled without permission.
- The Illuminators show should have been way more spectacular.
- A slightly annoyed Selene manhandled Rand with ONE hand. X-D An "innkeeper", right?
- "No one knows what happens in the Arches". Really Elayne? You mean "no one except from every Aes Sedai and Accepted."

[Knight of Heaven]

1. In the books, we see the sexual fantasies of a 19 years old man that is not-so-slowly going mad. There was an implied foursome in one of such dreams.
2. Considering some things described in the books, threesomes are not out of the question. Modest Spoilers from the books 5, 6 and 9:

As far i recall, and it has been a very long time, in the books regarding sex, there is nothing really explicit, maybe implied, but not even the focus to begin with.

Im not entirely surprised Amazon would focus on something like polyamory though...

The sexuality of the 'Aes Sedai' is pretty clunky in the books too. Using sexual freedom is an indicator of the shift in power to a matriarchal society, really it's just awkward writing.

Again from what i remember its something that is barely tackled, if addressed at all. And im not sure how sexual freedom and matriarchy go together, maybe in a male fantasy of sorts

[alhoon]

As far i recall, and it has been a very long time, in the books regarding sex, there is nothing really explicit, maybe implied, but not even the focus to begin with.

Im not entirely surprised Amazon would focus on something like polyamory though...


Again from what i remember its something that is barely tackled, if addressed at all. And im not sure how sexual freedom and matriarchy go together, maybe in a male fantasy of sorts

I agree in all those.
Yes, all those things I mentioned were there but they were not the focus; they were implied and in a couple of cases mentioned but not the focus. And I also agree that Amazon focusing on the polyamory is not a surprise. And I agree that Matriarchy doesn't mean sexual freedom.

[Halie Satanus]

And im not sure how sexual freedom and matriarchy go together, maybe in a male fantasy of sorts

And I agree that Matriarchy doesn't mean sexual freedom.

Just to quantify - I meant in the context of WoT, specifically the 'Aes Sedai,' although, it's pretty common, especially fantasy fiction, for a matriarchy to be (more) sexually liberated, but yes, it's definitely male fantasy. Otherwise how else do they emphasise any difference, daddy making mummy sandwiches!!..

Reading the books, I never felt sex was really a mechanism of the story telling. Unlike GoT where sex, and sexuality, is front and centre. I suspect Amazon tried to shoe horn sex in, because, sex sells.

where are the Lopars? The Rak'en? The other monsters?

I was okay with the omission, they'd have had to be CGI and the Trolloc's CGI is shaky enough...

I definitely didn't like what they did with Uno. The 'good' team is so short of actual warriors.

[alhoon]

I definitely didn't like what they did with Uno. The 'good' team is so short of actual warriors.

I love what they did with Uno. It works very well for the show. You have to remember that we have moved from "Based on the WoT" to "Loosely based on the WoT" and heading towards the "We use names and places from the WoT" territory.
This drives home (pun intended) how the Seanchan act. Not attacks in the night to kill women and children. They don't do that. They also don't bring the High Ladies and High Lords to random places but I kinda liked that too. I so wish they had Semirhage... although I do love the actor that plays Ishamael. Honestly, I prefer the series Ishamael from book Ishamael. Although Book Selene is leaps and bounds better than show Selene.
I also like the portrayal of Ingtar. With so condensed Great-hunt part and they still manage to do a build-up for the final confrontation.

[alhoon]

Episode 4

Spoilers about the episode:
- I don't like how they have made Aes Sedai much more ... benign. In the books they were more or less manipulative, secretive to a fault, arrogant to a GREAT fault and very strict with novices and Accepted. They were open that they didn't want Accepted and Novices to have any contact with the Outside world so that they will forget their roots, lose their loyalties for people far away and completely devote themselves to the Tower. And somehow, here, Accepted are allowed to leave the Tower whenever they want. And more.
This presentation of the Aes Sedai as ... humane... is a divergence from the books. The White Tower was looking at the White Tower first.


- Unless I am wrong, Ishamael hit Min with a Compulsion ... in her dream, which Ishamael should not be able to do - or he would have done it to Egwene in Season 1 or Rand. Or, it could be pure intimidation. I guess we will see. Other Forsaken have been shown to be able to do it, but Ishamael couldn't.


- Man, Selene and Rand plot is very different than the books but the ... feeling ... is very similar. Nothing is the same, literally nothing, but it feels so familiar because the changed events lead to similar responses. Even the kinda sexual assault from book ... either 3 or 4 is there.


- Lanfear is shown channeling... the True Power?!?! While Ishamael is around and well?! What the...
For those that don't know, the "True Power" is more or less the Essence of the Dark One. The Forsaken have a tiiiiny access to it. When the Dark One permits. It's more or less a request for access that might be granted by the Dark One for specific reasons and tasks.
There was absolutely no reason for Lanfear to be allowed to access the True Power in the end. The only reason is "because it looks cool and we want to show it".
Well, you showed it wrong!

[alhoon]

Episode 5

In short: The more they try to "Return" to the book, the worse the episode.



This has spoilers from the episode.








Aviendha gets Gaul's introduction. No complain about that at this point although I guess Perrin's arc from book 4 will be eliminated or very much changed which is a shame cause it was his best arc. My complain about Av and the Aiel in general is that they were already powerful and OP in the books and the show cranks it up by 50%.
Aviendha kills like 6-7 whitecloaks bare-handed. Aiel are good but their already as good as 2-3 soldiers (meaning 100 rank and file Aiel would easily overcome 300 well trained soldiers in armor and all) is now pushed even more up. I also remember Rand's mother in Season one that killed three people while in the pains of childbirth.

Nynaeve's block is also played x10 here. In the book getting angry enough to channel was not that hard for her. By book 2-3 she had channelled a dozen or more times. Not just twice.
I wonder who taught two novices (Elayne and Egwene) to throw fireballs and battlespells like that. 2 episodes ago, they were cleaning mud from water and asking about multi-weaves (and getting advice on threesomes instead which was hilarious). Now they were fighting off 3 well trained Damane.

For some reason now the Sul'Dam use actual leashes on the Damane (at least in some cases), returning on the book. ?!?!?!?


We finally hear about some of the Forsaken: "The boys" whomever they are from the original, Moghy, Graendal and Lanfear that is awake. NO SEMIRHAGE!!!!!!!
They cut out my favorite Forsaken! Sure, sure, I like the new Ishamael, but he is no Semirhage!
Also, they throw in things from books 8 and 11 here.

I really like how the show's past 2-3 episodes show that Moraine is not goody-goody but ruthlessly focused and manipulative. This should have been clear from the first season.

I really don't like how half the Aes Sedai are speaking falsehoods because of bad writing of dialogue!!!
No, Moraine would not say "I will tell you everything" to Rand. She cannot say that when she intends to give him the bare minimum.
And no, the Aes Sedai cannot offer compliments they don't believe in or comforting words. An Aes Sedai absolutely cannot say "I am sure it will turn up fine" to someone to comfort him when she knows it won't.

A more serious issue for the new viewers will probably be Tel'arad'rhiod. It is namedropped. And that's it. No real explanations.
"Tel'... what?" Rand asks.
"The world of dreams." Moraine's explanation. And that's it.

That said: Not bad episode for something that is loosely based on WoT.
Lanfear's interaction with Shamael was as creepy as it should be, as full of falsehoods as it should be. I loved how Lanfear didn't even bother to deny that she will betray Ishamael when she finds an opportunity.