Call of Warhammer had locked faction alliances- how did they do that?!

[Mr_Nygren]

Hello, i remember that in the original CoW (Call of Warhammer/Rage of the Dark Gods) the factions were in alliances from the start, and it were impossible to enter into diplomatic relations with factions that weren't allies with your faction from the start- at least not if they were enemies i believe.

I could use this feature in other mods, as i really dislike how factions make peace and declare war on anyone and after a few hours the Alliances are far from what is intended in for example HTW. So it would be great if i could get some advice so that i can lock the alliances in HTW to be like they are from the start the entire campaign in a more story-driven campaign.

[Maltacus]

Third Age TW has a similar feature, at least in most of the submods, and I believe the mechanics used are similar in CoW. The idea is to edit characters so that generals and captains are unable to attack an allied stack or town. It is done in descr_cursor_actions, sort of a back door way to achieve this you could say. Diplomacy should basically be the same - you make it impossible to click on a non-allied character with the diplomat.

I'm pasting some of the lines from a Third Age installation of mine that should give you the idea;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

 ;; S = Select
;; NA = Not Allowed
;; NM = Move not allowed (may be same as NA)
;; Mov = Move
;; Mov+ = Move cursor + number of turns needed to arrive
;; Ig = Ignore the item and treat as an empty square
;; Mer = Merge (Will always bring up merge screen)
;; Mer* = Automerge if allowed, otherwise Merge
;; Em = Embark (Will always bring up embarkation screen)
;; Em * = AutoEmbark if allowed, otherwise Embark)
;; G = Garrison (Will always bring up merge screen)
;; G* = AutoGerrison if allowed, otherwise Garrison)
;; A = Attack
;; Talk = Begin diplomatic negotiation
;; Talk / Bribe Choice between talk and bribe is bribe is allowed. Otherwise just talk
;; Spy = Perform a spying mission
;; Inf = Infiltrate the settlement
;; Ass = Assassinate one of the characters in the square 
;; Ass / NA = Assassinate one of the characters in the square. Not allowed if no characters in square
;; Mission = Perform one of a range of missions that are allowed to either the spy, assassin or diplomat
;; SetRP = Set rally_point point
;; SetRP* = Set one or more rally_point points
;; SetRpSel = Set rally point and select
;; Disem / NM = If the target square is a costal one, and the admiral can reach an adjacent square, and has something to disembark, then show the disembark cursor, otherwise NM

;; Valid items for 'over' flag and 'selected' flag:     nothing, army, admiral, diplomat, spy, assassin, family, settlement, fort, rally_point
;; Valid alignments: own, enemy, neutral

;; The default is nothing selected, in which case when over own pieces, show S, and when over enemy or allied, show Na

;; Order of declarations: <action> <alt action> <drag action> <alt drag action> <tooltip (optional)

;; If the tooltip keyword is specified, then the following word should be an identifier from the lookup file "data/descr_cursor_tooltips_lookup.txt", 
;; which itself is a lookup table for the strings in 'data/text/cursor_action_tooltips.txt'

selected nothing
{
    over own
    {
        default S S
        land    Ig
        sea        Ig
    }
    over enemy
    {
        default Na Na        tooltip    cannot_select_enemy_piece
    }
    over allied
    {
        default Na Na        tooltip cannot_select_enemy_piece
    }
}

selected army
{
    over own
    {
        initial_never_seen                Mov Mov
        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        army                        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        admiral                        Em*  (Em) Em  (Em*)        tooltip embark_army
        diplomat                    S S
        princess                    S S
        merchant                    S S
        priest                        S S
        heretic                        S S
        witch                        S S
        inquisitor                    S S
        spy                            S S
        assassin                    S S
        family                        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)    
        settlement                    G*   (S) G   (S)
        fort                        G*   (S) G   (S)
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_settlement        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        garrisoned_fort                Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        garrisoned_ship                Em*  (Em) Em  (Em*)
        sieged_settlement            S                    tooltip cannot_enter_sieged_settlement
        sieged_fort                    S                    tooltip cannot_enter_sieged_fort
        garrisoned_dock                Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        dock                        Na
        port                        Mov
    }
    over enemy
    {
        default                        A
        diplomat                    Mov
        princess                    Mov
        merchant                    Mov
        priest                        Mov
        heretic                        Mov
        witch                        Mov
        inquisitor                    Mov
        spy                            Mov
        assassin                    Mov

        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        admiral                        Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_ship                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        garrisoned_dock                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_ports
        port                        Mov
    }
    over allied
    {
        default                        A
        garrisoned_settlement        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        garrisoned_fort                NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        sieged_settlement            NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        sieged_fort                    NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        army                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        family                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance    
        settlement                    NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        fort                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        diplomat                    Mov
        princess                    Mov
        merchant                    Mov
        priest                        Mov
        heretic                        Mov
        witch                        Mov
        inquisitor                    Mov
        spy                            Mov
        assassin                    Mov

        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        admiral                        Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_ship                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        garrisoned_dock                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_ports
        port                        Mov
    }
}

[Mr_Nygren]

Third Age TW has a similar feature, at least in most of the submods, and I believe the mechanics used are similar in CoW. The idea is to edit characters so that generals and captains are unable to attack an allied stack or town. It is done in descr_cursor_actions, sort of a back door way to achieve this you could say. Diplomacy should basically be the same - you make it impossible to click on a non-allied character with the diplomat.

I'm pasting some of the lines from a Third Age installation of mine that should give you the idea;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

 ;; S = Select
;; NA = Not Allowed
;; NM = Move not allowed (may be same as NA)
;; Mov = Move
;; Mov+ = Move cursor + number of turns needed to arrive
;; Ig = Ignore the item and treat as an empty square
;; Mer = Merge (Will always bring up merge screen)
;; Mer* = Automerge if allowed, otherwise Merge
;; Em = Embark (Will always bring up embarkation screen)
;; Em * = AutoEmbark if allowed, otherwise Embark)
;; G = Garrison (Will always bring up merge screen)
;; G* = AutoGerrison if allowed, otherwise Garrison)
;; A = Attack
;; Talk = Begin diplomatic negotiation
;; Talk / Bribe Choice between talk and bribe is bribe is allowed. Otherwise just talk
;; Spy = Perform a spying mission
;; Inf = Infiltrate the settlement
;; Ass = Assassinate one of the characters in the square 
;; Ass / NA = Assassinate one of the characters in the square. Not allowed if no characters in square
;; Mission = Perform one of a range of missions that are allowed to either the spy, assassin or diplomat
;; SetRP = Set rally_point point
;; SetRP* = Set one or more rally_point points
;; SetRpSel = Set rally point and select
;; Disem / NM = If the target square is a costal one, and the admiral can reach an adjacent square, and has something to disembark, then show the disembark cursor, otherwise NM

;; Valid items for 'over' flag and 'selected' flag:     nothing, army, admiral, diplomat, spy, assassin, family, settlement, fort, rally_point
;; Valid alignments: own, enemy, neutral

;; The default is nothing selected, in which case when over own pieces, show S, and when over enemy or allied, show Na

;; Order of declarations: <action> <alt action> <drag action> <alt drag action> <tooltip (optional)

;; If the tooltip keyword is specified, then the following word should be an identifier from the lookup file "data/descr_cursor_tooltips_lookup.txt", 
;; which itself is a lookup table for the strings in 'data/text/cursor_action_tooltips.txt'

selected nothing
{
    over own
    {
        default S S
        land    Ig
        sea        Ig
    }
    over enemy
    {
        default Na Na        tooltip    cannot_select_enemy_piece
    }
    over allied
    {
        default Na Na        tooltip cannot_select_enemy_piece
    }
}

selected army
{
    over own
    {
        initial_never_seen                Mov Mov
        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        army                        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        admiral                        Em*  (Em) Em  (Em*)        tooltip embark_army
        diplomat                    S S
        princess                    S S
        merchant                    S S
        priest                        S S
        heretic                        S S
        witch                        S S
        inquisitor                    S S
        spy                            S S
        assassin                    S S
        family                        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)    
        settlement                    G*   (S) G   (S)
        fort                        G*   (S) G   (S)
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_settlement        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        garrisoned_fort                Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        garrisoned_ship                Em*  (Em) Em  (Em*)
        sieged_settlement            S                    tooltip cannot_enter_sieged_settlement
        sieged_fort                    S                    tooltip cannot_enter_sieged_fort
        garrisoned_dock                Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        dock                        Na
        port                        Mov
    }
    over enemy
    {
        default                        A
        diplomat                    Mov
        princess                    Mov
        merchant                    Mov
        priest                        Mov
        heretic                        Mov
        witch                        Mov
        inquisitor                    Mov
        spy                            Mov
        assassin                    Mov

        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        admiral                        Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_ship                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        garrisoned_dock                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_ports
        port                        Mov
    }
    over allied
    {
        default                        A
        garrisoned_settlement        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        garrisoned_fort                NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        sieged_settlement            NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        sieged_fort                    NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        army                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        family                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance    
        settlement                    NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        fort                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        diplomat                    Mov
        princess                    Mov
        merchant                    Mov
        priest                        Mov
        heretic                        Mov
        witch                        Mov
        inquisitor                    Mov
        spy                            Mov
        assassin                    Mov

        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        admiral                        Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_ship                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        garrisoned_dock                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_ports
        port                        Mov
    }
}

Thanks man, i did spend hours yesterday to port the descr_strat alliance-system to HTW - instead of using faction_standing 1.0 or -1.0 it is now using 9.9 and -9.9 - and instead of using "Allied_to" and "at_war_with" it is now also using the additional "allied_with" - i'm not sure what the difference is between the two. Also do you know if vassals can be available through the descr_strat from the start?

The above work took a lot of time to do because of all my different alliances. - The mod played kinda differently but they would still change their alliances etc as expected. I then decided to add the CoW-script "Union of Light" and it is the same as seen in LotRTW- basically the alliances are enforced each new turn. But this doesn't prevent factions from betraying each other on the current turn. So in essence they could declare war on anyone and take a settlement and then the next turn they would be allies again. This wasn't the feature i were looking for though, as in CoW they can't even click on or enter diplomatic relations with the wrong factions.

I believe that your advice is what i were looking for. While certain factions would be better off if they could click on each other to enter into diplomatic relations and/or attack each other- others shouldn't be able to do that. I will experiement what is the best option - every good faction being allied, and every evil faction - or if i'm gonna keep to lore-accurate alliances, despite the issue that then we may not be able to have relations between factions that started out as neutrals but turned into enemies. I will have to experiement with this.

[Mr_Nygren]

Third Age TW has a similar feature, at least in most of the submods, and I believe the mechanics used are similar in CoW. The idea is to edit characters so that generals and captains are unable to attack an allied stack or town. It is done in descr_cursor_actions, sort of a back door way to achieve this you could say. Diplomacy should basically be the same - you make it impossible to click on a non-allied character with the diplomat.

I'm pasting some of the lines from a Third Age installation of mine that should give you the idea;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

 ;; S = Select
;; NA = Not Allowed
;; NM = Move not allowed (may be same as NA)
;; Mov = Move
;; Mov+ = Move cursor + number of turns needed to arrive
;; Ig = Ignore the item and treat as an empty square
;; Mer = Merge (Will always bring up merge screen)
;; Mer* = Automerge if allowed, otherwise Merge
;; Em = Embark (Will always bring up embarkation screen)
;; Em * = AutoEmbark if allowed, otherwise Embark)
;; G = Garrison (Will always bring up merge screen)
;; G* = AutoGerrison if allowed, otherwise Garrison)
;; A = Attack
;; Talk = Begin diplomatic negotiation
;; Talk / Bribe Choice between talk and bribe is bribe is allowed. Otherwise just talk
;; Spy = Perform a spying mission
;; Inf = Infiltrate the settlement
;; Ass = Assassinate one of the characters in the square 
;; Ass / NA = Assassinate one of the characters in the square. Not allowed if no characters in square
;; Mission = Perform one of a range of missions that are allowed to either the spy, assassin or diplomat
;; SetRP = Set rally_point point
;; SetRP* = Set one or more rally_point points
;; SetRpSel = Set rally point and select
;; Disem / NM = If the target square is a costal one, and the admiral can reach an adjacent square, and has something to disembark, then show the disembark cursor, otherwise NM

;; Valid items for 'over' flag and 'selected' flag:     nothing, army, admiral, diplomat, spy, assassin, family, settlement, fort, rally_point
;; Valid alignments: own, enemy, neutral

;; The default is nothing selected, in which case when over own pieces, show S, and when over enemy or allied, show Na

;; Order of declarations: <action> <alt action> <drag action> <alt drag action> <tooltip (optional)

;; If the tooltip keyword is specified, then the following word should be an identifier from the lookup file "data/descr_cursor_tooltips_lookup.txt", 
;; which itself is a lookup table for the strings in 'data/text/cursor_action_tooltips.txt'

selected nothing
{
    over own
    {
        default S S
        land    Ig
        sea        Ig
    }
    over enemy
    {
        default Na Na        tooltip    cannot_select_enemy_piece
    }
    over allied
    {
        default Na Na        tooltip cannot_select_enemy_piece
    }
}

selected army
{
    over own
    {
        initial_never_seen                Mov Mov
        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        army                        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        admiral                        Em*  (Em) Em  (Em*)        tooltip embark_army
        diplomat                    S S
        princess                    S S
        merchant                    S S
        priest                        S S
        heretic                        S S
        witch                        S S
        inquisitor                    S S
        spy                            S S
        assassin                    S S
        family                        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)    
        settlement                    G*   (S) G   (S)
        fort                        G*   (S) G   (S)
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_settlement        Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        garrisoned_fort                Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        garrisoned_ship                Em*  (Em) Em  (Em*)
        sieged_settlement            S                    tooltip cannot_enter_sieged_settlement
        sieged_fort                    S                    tooltip cannot_enter_sieged_fort
        garrisoned_dock                Mer* (Mer) Mer (Mer*)
        dock                        Na
        port                        Mov
    }
    over enemy
    {
        default                        A
        diplomat                    Mov
        princess                    Mov
        merchant                    Mov
        priest                        Mov
        heretic                        Mov
        witch                        Mov
        inquisitor                    Mov
        spy                            Mov
        assassin                    Mov

        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        admiral                        Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_ship                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        garrisoned_dock                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_ports
        port                        Mov
    }
    over allied
    {
        default                        A
        garrisoned_settlement        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        garrisoned_fort                NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        sieged_settlement            NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        sieged_fort                    NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        army                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        family                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance    
        settlement                    NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        fort                        NA (S)    tooltip cannot_break_alliance
        diplomat                    Mov
        princess                    Mov
        merchant                    Mov
        priest                        Mov
        heretic                        Mov
        witch                        Mov
        inquisitor                    Mov
        spy                            Mov
        assassin                    Mov

        land                        Mov Mov
        sea                            Na Na                    tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        admiral                        Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        rally_point                    Mov
        naval_rally_point            Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_go_on_sea
        garrisoned_ship                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_navies
        garrisoned_dock                Na                        tooltip armies_cannot_attack_ports
        port                        Mov
    }
}

I tried moving that file over and it had some odd results:

1. It works as intended for the player- i can't click on enemies with my diplomats nor on my allies with my armies. However, neutral factions can't be clicked on with the diplomats neither despite the text stating that they could be clicked on.

2. AI factions seem to still be able to enter diplomacy with their enemies, and they seem to be able to attack their allies. Is there no way to prevent the AI from doing this as well? Should it also work?

[Maltacus]

1. Neutral facions count as enemies in this regard if I remember correctly. I've never tried adding lines for "neutral" so I don't know what happens if you do that. Is that what you tried?

2. That sound vaguely familiar but I might as well mix it up with some other mod. I think I remember having the problem with allies betraying one another but if that existed in Third Age it was extremely rare because the AI is set to be very honorable and not much of a backstabber. The difference is huge compared to some others, for example one old gem of treacherousness made for Stainless Steel 6.2 or so by gracul, that I imported in CoW to make the empire erupt into civil war.

I think there is a lot of potential in modding the campaign ai to avoid attacking allies as much as possible. It is not perfect as you just raise the threshold for such things, but combind with cursor modding it should come a long way at least. That and alliance reset scripting that you mentioned is probably as far as anyone can get within the confines of the game.

[Mr_Nygren]

1. Neutral facions count as enemies in this regard if I remember correctly. I've never tried adding lines for "neutral" so I don't know what happens if you do that. Is that what you tried?

2. That sound vaguely familiar but I might as well mix it up with some other mod. I think I remember having the problem with allies betraying one another but if that existed in Third Age it was extremely rare because the AI is set to be very honorable and not much of a backstabber. The difference is huge compared to some others, for example one old gem of treacherousness made for Stainless Steel 6.2 or so by gracul, that I imported in CoW to make the empire erupt into civil war.

I think there is a lot of potential in modding the campaign ai to avoid attacking allies as much as possible. It is not perfect as you just raise the threshold for such things, but combind with cursor modding it should come a long way at least. That and alliance reset scripting that you mentioned is probably as far as anyone can get within the confines of the game.

1. When i tried writing "neutral" the game crashed on start-up. I tried playing the mod, and the game said i could click on neutrals- but it were impossible.

2. How do you set the AI to be very honorable? I tried a few files that made the allies more likely to help each other- but those files also made them station all their troops at the borders and never attack each other. So i prefered the aggressive current AI even if it never is helping the player out.

Yeah, i see- a shame that the AI can still click on factions.

[Maltacus]

I don't remember which lines that alter the ai:s inclination towards betrayal, and it is possible that different campaign ai modders have different approaches. I'll have to refer you to the mod workshop about that.