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Thread: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    France alone already outspends the RF armed forces. The four largest militaries in the EU alone spend more than thrice the budget of the Russian armed forces.

    Never mind the nukes or that this new cold war is not in Russia's interests and entirely the result of Western aggressive warmongering.
    Do you suggest the NATO could simply dissolve?

  2. #62

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    If there is no NATO then how would nukes deter the Soviets again? Remember its MAD that made nuclear war unwinnable. Without the US's arsenal then what would stop the Soviets? Again France and the UK are the only ones with nuclear weapons. They don't have enough to ensure MAD with the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact and plenty of European nations don't possess any nuclear weapons. What stops the Soviets from invading them?
    Same reason why US never nuked Korea or Vietnam, or UK hasn't nuked Argentina.
    So yeah, the only difference NATO made was funding European militaries from the pockets of American people via state-mandated theft, aka taxation.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Same reason why US never nuked Korea or Vietnam, or UK hasn't nuked Argentina.
    None of them were nuclear powers. France and the UK are. And you never did answer all of my post. If there is no NATO to deter the Soviets then what stops them from invading Western Europe if they want?

  4. #64

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    None of them were nuclear powers. France and the UK are. And you never did answer all of my post. If there is no NATO to deter the Soviets then what stops them from invading Western Europe if they want?
    Nukes. socialist economy.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Nukes. socialist economy.
    Nukes from whom? Germany doesn't have any. Nor Austria, Italy, Denmark, any of the Nordic countries, Greece, ect.

    I'll ask this again too. How do nukes from France and the UK deter the Soviets? Like i said, they don't have enough to ensure MAD.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Nukes from whom? Germany doesn't have any. Nor Austria, Italy, Denmark, any of the Nordic countries, Greece, ect.

    I'll ask this again too. How do nukes from France and the UK deter the Soviets? Like i said, they don't have enough to ensure MAD.
    NK only had a few as well, and that still held several American presidential administrations at bay. Its is a bit more complicated then a strategy video game.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    NK only had a few as well, and that still held several American presidential administrations at bay.
    Nukes haven't kept the Americans at bay at all. NK has only had nukes since 2005 or so. They didn't have any previously and the US still didn't try to invade them.

    India and Pakistan both possess nuclear weapons and yet that didn't stop them from going to war with each other.

    Its is a bit more complicated then a strategy video game.
    Still waiting on your answer. You still have yet to tell me what stops the Soviets from invading countries who don't possess nuclear weapons.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferdiad View Post
    Germany was a tripline for a outbreak of war back then, these days it's the american bases in the baltics and Poland that are the deterrent. That's probably a part of the reason why Germany's military has gotten so shambolic now that they're not on the frontlines to to speak.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    During the height of the Cold War the British Army on the Rhine (BAOR) constituted around 53,000 men.

    The problem today is nobody believes they will ever have to fight a conventional war against an equal foe anymore. All the wars since WW2 have been proxy wars involving minor nations.
    I also agree with this statement. Peace or at least the very limited small conflicts are by no means bad things when comparing the earlier total war that Europe frequently found itself in. On the contrary it is good to have peace. However it does mean that many in Europe have become complacent regarding military spending. It is clear every time I speak to another German that, that it is not just a political view but also a cultural problem. That view however is not a global one. In the US and elsewhere they do not necessarily think that way. To respond again to your' earlier post, this is where the misalignment of views seems to be sourced. You mentioned the strangee American view of NATO. It is easy to conclude as an American, that the disproportionally high military spending in the US might be necessary to make up for the lack of spending by other members. Though I will admit that this is only partially true and the reasons behind the US' high spending is much more complex.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Nukes haven't kept the Americans at bay at all. NK has only had nukes since 2005 or so. They didn't have any previously and the US still didn't try to invade them.

    India and Pakistan both possess nuclear weapons and yet that didn't stop them from going to war with each other.
    A few clashes here and there isn't real war.
    Still waiting on your answer. You still have yet to tell me what stops the Soviets from invading countries who don't possess nuclear weapons.
    Even a small nuclear arsenal is the reason not to. Also US hasn't used nukes in Korea for fear of Soviet and Chinese retaliation, even though there was not article 9 between those countries.
    To put it simply the fact that Western Europe wasn't invaded was due to w him of circumstances, and not because of NATO magic abilities.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    A few clashes here and there isn't real war.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War

    Wasn't just a few clashes.

    Even a small nuclear arsenal is the reason not to. Also US hasn't used nukes in Korea for fear of Soviet and Chinese retaliation,
    There was never a reason to use nuclear weapons in Korea. The only time it was considered was when MacArthur wanted to use nukes on Chinese bases. Chinese would have no way of retaliating as they didn't have any nuclear weapons at that time.

    To put it simply the fact that Western Europe wasn't invaded was due to w him of circumstances, and not because of NATO magic abilities.
    You are still avoiding my question. What stops the Soviets from invading countries in Western Europe that do not have nuclear weapons?

  11. #71

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Border clashes isn't really comparable to Soviets liberating Western Europe all the way to UK.

    There was never a reason to use nuclear weapons in Korea. The only time it was considered was when MacArthur wanted to use nukes on Chinese bases. Chinese would have no way of retaliating as they didn't have any nuclear weapons at that time.
    But they didn't want to draw the Soviets in, who at the time, against didn't really have an article 9 with China.

    You are still avoiding my question. What stops the Soviets from invading countries in Western Europe that do not have nuclear weapons?
    Threat of drawing in other countries and the fact that Soviet economy was bad because of socialism.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Border clashes isn't really comparable to Soviets liberating Western Europe all the way to UK.
    So? A war's a war. Just because its not as big in scope as WW2 doesn't mean its not a war.

    But they didn't want to draw the Soviets in, who at the time, against didn't really have an article 9 with China.
    Soviets were already drawn in. Hell they piloted Mig-15s and fought against US pilots. Harry Truman never saw a need to use nuclear weapons in the Korean War.


    Threat of drawing in other countries and the fact that Soviet economy was bad because of socialism.
    How are they going to draw in other countries? There's no NATO remember? And stop with the economy nonsense. The Soviets were able to invade Afghanistan while still keeping thousands of soldiers stationed in Europe. Their economy will not prevent them from going to war.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    So? A war's a war. Just because its not as big in scope as WW2 doesn't mean its not a war.
    The point is that your analogy doesn't make sense. They never ended up invading each other.
    Soviets were already drawn in. Hell they piloted Mig-15s and fought against US pilots. Harry Truman never saw a need to use nuclear weapons in the Korean War.
    US was getting desperate and considered using nukes.
    How are they going to draw in other countries? There's no NATO remember? And stop with the economy nonsense. The Soviets were able to invade Afghanistan while still keeping thousands of soldiers stationed in Europe. Their economy will not prevent them from going to war.
    Invading Afghanistan wasn't really as difficult, even with US-Saudis backing jihadists, as invading whole Western Europe with much more advanced armies. And well the fact that USSR had bad ineffective socialist economy.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    The point is that your analogy doesn't make sense. They never ended up invading each other.
    Did you read it at all? Pakistan invaded Indian territory and India took it back. An invasion did take place. Its a war.

    US was getting desperate and considered using nukes.
    According to who? You have proof Harry Truman wanted to use nukes in Korea? I'm waiting for it.

    Invading Afghanistan wasn't really as difficult, even with US-Saudis backing jihadists, as invading whole Western Europe with much more advanced armies.
    An insurgency is not the same as a conventional war. Western European Armies had absolutely no chance in a conventional war. They had no where near the equipment, tanks, aircraft, navy, or manpower to match the Soviets and Warsaw Pact. Even with NATO the Soviets still had the advantage. And you again ignored my question. How are the Soviets going to draw in more countries in a war? No NATO means no alliance.

    And well the fact that USSR had bad ineffective socialist economy.
    Still didn't stop them in Afghanistan.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    The whole who wold win the cold war thing is more for the history section. However there is a valid argument that the existence of NATO meant that an attempt by the soviets to expand by force would of been too costly in blood and treasure to be worth the attempt.

    Recent events have shown the Russians have little problems with expansion by force against states isolated and without allies.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Did you read it at all? Pakistan invaded Indian territory and India took it back. An invasion did take place. Its a war.
    Minor border clash resulting with a stalemate.
    According to who? You have proof Harry Truman wanted to use nukes in Korea? I'm waiting for it.
    https://www.airspacemag.com/military...ear-180955324/

    An insurgency is not the same as a conventional war. Western European Armies had absolutely no chance in a conventional war. They had no where near the equipment, tanks, aircraft, navy, or manpower to match the Soviets and Warsaw Pact. Even with NATO the Soviets still had the advantage. And you again ignored my question. How are the Soviets going to draw in more countries in a war? No NATO means no alliance.
    Again, it would require waaaayy more resources to invade Europe. Something inefficient socialist economy could not produce on its own. If USSR wasn't USSR but modern Russian Empire with capitalist economy, you'd have a point. So I guess NATO would be useful - in alternative history scenario. But in reality it wasn't.
    Still didn't stop them in Afghanistan.
    Are you seriously comparing Afghanistan to a dozen or so of European states? The scale, population, quality of opposing force...
    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post

    Recent events have shown the Russians have little problems with expansion by force against states isolated and without allies.
    If Germans decided to join Warsaw Pact/USSR via elections, then it would have been a different story.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Minor border clash resulting with a stalemate.
    A war is a war.
    No where in that source does it say Harry Truman advocated for the use of nuclear weapons. It even points out that Truman fired MacArthur over their differing views regarding the use of nukes since MacArthur wanted to nuke Chinese bases.


    Again, it would require waaaayy more resources to invade Europe. Something inefficient socialist economy could not produce on its own.
    And your evidence for this is based on what again?

    If USSR wasn't USSR but modern Russian Empire with capitalist economy, you'd have a point. So I guess NATO would be useful - in alternative history scenario. But in reality it wasn't.

    Are you seriously comparing Afghanistan to a dozen or so of European states? The scale, population, quality of opposing force...
    USSR's economy was more than enough to start a war. The Soviets were able to stay in Afghanistan for 10 years along with keeping forces in Europe. The idea they couldn't somehow go to war with a European country but could go to war in Afghanistan for 10 years is ridiculous.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    It is beyond question that NATO dissuaded the Soviet Union from expanding - or attempting to expand - its sphere of influence over western Europe militarily. Arguing about a hypothetical past where the US paid no attention to the defense interests of its democratic partners (and by extension, itself) is a waste of time.



  19. #79

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Interesting take on Macron’s NATO criticism vis a vis the most easily manipulated POTUS in modern history. Trump’s characteristic susceptibility to basic flattery, and accordingly reflexive reaction to any and all criticism, is on full display yet again:
    LONDON — President Trump on Tuesday slammed as “very, very nasty” and “very disrespectful” recent comments by his French counterpart about the diminished state of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization alliance.
    Referring to comments President Emmanuel Macron made last month in an interview with the Economist magazine — in which Macron described the “brain death” of NATO resulting from America’s failure to consult with its allies — Trump attacked Macron on the first day of the NATO 70th-anniversary summit in London, calling the comments “very insulting.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...948_story.html
    Amusingly, what seems to have worked instead is Emmanuel Macron’s completely different ploy. The French president gave an interview last month decrying the “brain death” of NATO, which he said had failed to account for America’s shrinking commitment under Trump.
    Trump himself has called NATO “obsolete,” openly questioned whether the U.S. would come to the defense of allies under attack (the very foundation of the alliance), and privately told aides on several occasions last year he wants to withdraw from the alliance. But the notion that somebody else would question NATO, and blame its demise on Trump, has enraged him.

    And now Trump is lashing out at Macron. “NATO serves a great purpose,” he declared today. “And I hear that President Macron said NATO is ‘brain dead.’ I think that’s very insulting to a lot of different forces … When you make a statement like that, that is a very, very nasty statement to 28 — including them — 28 countries.”

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...orse-nato.html
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  20. #80

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Interesting take on Macron’s NATO criticism vis a vis the most easily manipulated POTUS in modern history. Trump’s characteristic susceptibility to basic flattery, and accordingly reflexive reaction to any and all criticism, is on full display yet again:
    There was no 4D chess "ploy" by Macron: everyone knows that the French have had a difficult relationship with NATO and that Macron has been trying to sell the concept of a militarized Europe by denigrating the existing defense arrangements.



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