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Thread: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

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    Default Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron


    • 7 November 2019



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    Image copyrightREUTERSPresident Emmanuel Macron of France has described Nato as "brain dead", stressing what he sees as waning commitment to the transatlantic alliance by its main guarantor, the US.
    Interviewed by the Economist, he cited the US failure to consult Nato before pulling forces out of northern Syria.
    He also questioned whether Nato was still committed to collective defence.
    German Chancellor Angela Merkel, a key ally, said she disagreed with Mr Macron's "drastic words".
    Russia, which sees Nato as a threat to its security, welcomed the French president's comments as "truthful words".
    Nato, which celebrates 70 years since its founding at a London summit next month, has responded by saying the alliance remains strong.
    What else did the French president say?

    "What we are currently experiencing is the brain death of Nato," Mr Macron told the London-based newspaper.
    He warned European members that they could no longer rely on the US to defend the alliance, established at the start of the Cold War to bolster Western European and North American security.


    Article Five of Nato's founding charter stipulates that an attack on one member will produce a collective response from the alliance.
    But Mr Macron appeared unsure whether it was still valid when asked. "I don't know," he said.
    The alliance, Mr Macron is quoted as saying, "only works if the guarantor of last resort functions as such. I'd argue that we should reassess the reality of what Nato is in the light of the commitment of the United States".
    The French leader urged Europe to start thinking of itself as a "geopolitical power" to ensure it remained "in control" of its destiny.
    Why the doubts over Nato?

    President Donald Trump's abrupt decision to pull most US forces out of north-eastern Syria in October took European Nato members by surprise.








    Media captionA Nato military exercise in 2018 - the biggest since Cold War The move opened the way for Turkey - itself a powerful Nato member - to push into Syria and create what it termed a security zone along its border. Kurdish forces, who had been helping the US fight the Islamic State (IS) group, were expelled from the area.
    Mr Macron at the time criticised Nato's failure to respond to the Turkish offensive.
    Mr Trump has frequently accused European Nato members of failing to provide their fair share of military spending and for relying too heavily on the US for their defence.
    For his part, Mr Macron has already been at the forefront of moves to boost defence co-operation among European countries. However, the European Union's other main military power, the UK, emphasises the importance of Nato to European defence.
    What reaction has there been?

    Chancellor Merkel, speaking in Berlin alongside visiting Nato Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, said Mr Macron "used drastic words - that is not my view of co-operation in Nato".
    She acknowledged there were problems, but said she did not think "such sweeping judgements are necessary".








    Media captionGerman Chancellor Angela Merkel disagreed strongly with the French presidentRussia's reaction came from foreign ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova.
    "Well said. Truthful words, and ones that get to the nub of the matter," she posted on Facebook.
    "An accurate description of Nato's current state," she wrote.
    Image copyrightGETTY IMAGESImage caption"Truthful words" - the Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman's assessmentNato chief Mr Stoltenberg said the alliance remained strong.
    "European allies are stepping up, investing more in defence.
    "The US is increasing investments in Europe with more troops, more exercises. The reality is that we do work together. We have strengthened our collective defence. Any attempt to distance us from North America risks not only weakening the alliance, the transatlantic bond, but also weakening Europe."
    No longer fit for purpose?

    With only weeks before the Nato summit, President Macron's comments suggest it might not be an entirely harmonious celebration.
    One key fault line has been opened up by President Trump who frequently denigrates his Nato allies. He described many of them recently as "delinquent" for not spending sufficiently on their own defence.
    Mr Macron said America was turning its back on Europe. The absence of co-ordination on strategic decision-making between the US and its Nato allies was exemplified by recent unilateral US and Turkish decisions in Syria.
    Turkey's actions in particular, he said, raised all sorts of questions about the fundamental security guarantees that Nato gives to all its members. What would happen, he asked, if the Syrian government attacked Turkey due to its incursion into Syria?
    With more members than ever and facing much more complex security challenges, Nato seems in Mr Macron's view to no longer be fit for purpose.
    This is about much more than one US president. Nato must defend against multiple threats which different countries perceive in different ways. And a number of allies seem less and less keen to espouse the liberal democratic values that lie at Nato's core.
    How did Nato come about?

    The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation was created in 1949 to counter the threat from the Soviet Union as the Communist country sought to expand its power in Europe.
    The Soviet Union, an ally in World War Two against Nazi Germany, became an adversary of the West during the Cold War.
    It set up its own Warsaw Pact military alliance, including the then Communist countries of eastern Europe, in 1955.
    That alliance was dissolved shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 and former Warsaw Pact countries, though not Russia, became Nato members in the years following.
    Originally set up to promote "stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area", Nato was faced with finding a new purpose after the demise of the Soviet Union.
    From the mid-1990s, Nato forces were deployed on missions in the former Yugoslavia, launching air strikes to push Serbia out of Kosovo, and in Afghanistan, where the alliance took control of peacekeeping operations.
    But as Nato has expanded, it has struggled to overcome Russian concerns that the alliance poses a threat on its borders.





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    Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50335257

    Russia has said only those inside NATO would be able to accurately make that diagnosis
    ‘Once NATO recovers, we’ll be there’: Russian FM Lavrov jokes about Macron’s ‘brain-dead NATO’ diagnosis
    Source:https://www.rt.com/news/472929-lavro...-nato-comment/

    Jokes aside, this is a serious thing; NATO's members are going in opposite directions; for instance, NATO is supposed to kill Russia and keep the Germans and french as slaves and perpetuate Anglo hegemony on the continent. Both Germany and France want to trade with Russia, which is how Nordstream 2 got enacted.

    Turkey which is supposed to act as the main cannon fodder of NATO and die fighting Russians, is actually working with Russians in Syria and not behaving like a good lapdog and buying useless american arms.

    Not to mention the fact that the EU is forming its own army under Franco-allemaine command, seperate from white supremacist anglo command. The twilight of the american empire has begun. Now is the time of anglo america's Götterdämmerung

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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    1) USA are for long time real muscle in NATO. Basically everyone else should be spending more but except a few countries,nobody does. So this is actually good for EU as whole NATO will boost military budgets. But the real question is, is the problem decline of USA or one big child in the White Hall? Because USA presidents tend to change from time to time and policies with them.

    2) EU is heading for unified EU forces. Which will be great as those will be less susceptible to national aims. No more British, France or German adventures....

    3) Turkey is problem for long time, only it is showing as of lately. Sooner NATO deal with it,better. But this is again personal project of small group of people. Turkey is aiming on old Ottoman Empire and being new big dog beside Iran and Saudis. Except road is dark and full of terror.

    4) It has powers just to annex mainly russian regions. The best it can hope for is keeping chaos around borders. Russia has no money to project major war, sending a few advisors and planes and missiles is one thing. Punching Poland is second...

    5) If anything prepare for rise of new European Empire.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; November 09, 2019 at 05:28 AM. Reason: Offensive order/personal references deleted.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Chretien to Macron: "It's called a 'brain drain' you Parisian snob!"

  4. #4

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    3) Turkey is problem for long time, only it is showing as of lately. Sooner NATO deal with it,better. But this is again personal project of small group of people. Turkey is aiming on old Ottoman Empire and being new big dog beside Iran and Saudis. Except road is dark and full of terror.
    The problem starting coming from NATO long before Turkey ventured into finding new allies. For decades, various NATO countries outright helped or provided safe haven for PKK in Europe. USA itself have been arming and training their Syrian branch for half a decade now. Moreover, USA houses for over two decades, under CIA protection, a cleric that is on tape to order his followers to stay secretive till they take over the government, whose organization is responsible for a number of proven conspiracies. So, when these leaders speak of how Turkey is not a good NATO ally, they can go to hell. If Turkey is looking for different allies there are reasons for that.
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    B. W.'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Macron is an expert at spotting brain dead people. He sees one every morning when he looks in the mirror.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Macron's attempts to disparage the West's existing defence arrangements (ie. NATO) are designed to build the case for the militarization of the European Union. With the United Kingdom out of the picture and Germany being unwilling to commit to any sort of serious defence spending, further intra-European military integration would position France - the only continental power outside of Russia with access to nuclear weapons - as the dominant military force within the Union. This would help the French to offset, to some degree, Germany's economic supremacy.

    That said, there is no way that any European state is actually prepared to withdraw from the alliance and face having to properly fund their own defence arrangements - even if the idea plays well with chattering liberals who've somehow convinced themselves that it was the EU (and not NATO) which has kept the peace since 1945. As it turns out, sanctimoniously deriding the US from the sidelines and accusing it of "turning its back on Europe" is far less stressful than the prospect of sacrificing open access to higher education and healthcare in order to bankroll military expenditure.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; November 09, 2019 at 09:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Sounds like the usual French attitude toward NATO. They have always had mixed feelings about NATO.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    As it turns out, sanctimoniously deriding the US from the sidelines and accusing it of "turning its back on Europe" is far less stressful than the prospect of sacrificing open access to higher education and healthcare in order to bankroll military expenditure.
    Wait can the US do too...

    In any case of course NATO will face fracture. The USSR is dead. Putin might be a threat to Georgia or the Ukraine but realistically not very far outside his near abouts. That states like Turkey might even drift out of NATO seems like normal. US demands are a bit incoherent (especially Trump's) what do what Europe to spend more on what anyway? 'Europe' is still basically a collection of two different overlapping alliances of nation states not a country. Its military spending is thus when aggregated inefficient, but both alliances serve US interests fairly well and have done well for both sides of the Atlantic. If you want to play at hegemony you do sorta have to hold up your end of the bargain - doing the heavy lifting.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Macron's end-game is to have EU's own military force, as they'd be able to do as they please with growing anti-EU protest movement as well as to threaten states like Poland and Hungary who refuse to go under EUSSR's boot.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Macron's end-game is to have EU's own military force, as they'd be able to do as they please with growing anti-EU protest movement as well as to threaten states like Poland and Hungary who refuse to go under EUSSR's boot.
    Can't won't work unless the Eu become a federal state.

    ' EUSSR's boot' ha funny I suppose Orbon is going to start handing back all the EU ag payments he and his friends enjoy?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Such strange logic. Do you also want to recreate Warsaw Pact because of all the money USSR invested into Central Europe?

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Such strange logic. Do you also want to recreate Warsaw Pact because of all the money USSR invested into Central Europe?
    I said nothing of the sort mealy that Orbon is a hypocrite of the first order you suggest he dislikes the EU boot but he takes its cash with both hands.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I said nothing of the sort mealy that Orbon is a hypocrite of the first order you suggest he dislikes the EU boot but he takes its cash with both hands.
    It makes perfect sense to take cash from EU and then to ignore harmful and anti-national demands from it. Doing what is best for your nation goes perfectly in line with democratic nationalism.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    democratic nationalism.
    Problem there is HH is that is very little democracy in the way Orbon and his cronies sold of state owned land to reap the benefit of EU subsides for themselves and large wealthy interests.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Problem there is HH is that is very little democracy in the way Orbon and his cronies sold of state owned land to reap the benefit of EU subsides for themselves and large wealthy interests.
    Except that people don't end up being arrested for social media posts in Hungary, so freedom-wise it is clearly doing better then some Western European countries. The rest of your post seems like some weird conjecture that has very little bearing to reality.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Article should read: French leader upset they can’t cut military spending further because the US won’t babysit anymore

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    Article should read: French leader upset they can’t cut military spending further because the US won’t babysit anymore
    Or it could read Americans too under educated to notice how hegemony works... do read Thucydides.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    I don't think Americans want to LARP as "world policeman", and Macron just wants to be able to use military to crush protests against him.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    I don't think Americans want to LARP as "world policeman", and Macron just wants to be able to use military to crush protests against him.
    If you don't do the former as a great power you don't a vote when somebody else does based on their rules. Macron looks like a bloody dictator alright.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    If you don't do the former as a great power you don't a vote when somebody else does based on their rules. Macron looks like a bloody dictator alright.
    I re-read the first half of your post several times and am still struggling to understand what you meant here. As for Macron, he definitely has an authoritarian streak in him, just like most globalists who deservedly feel threatened by their own people.

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