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Thread: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

  1. #21
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    It's true that thanks to Trump, because of Trump- allies can't trust America.

    Warren is right... "America is strongest when we work together with our allies – including the 28 NATO members who share our democratic values. Undermining NATO is a gift to Putin that Donald Trump seems all too happy to give".

    Sanders
    is right...."refusing to defend other NATO countries sets a dangerous precedent for the balance of global power"

    Biden is right... Biden predicts there will be no NATO if Trump is re-elected
    -------
    The existential threat Trump poses to the world political order

    Within months of Trump’s assuming the office of president, Germany’s Chancellor Angela Merkel was already sounding the alarm that America could no longer be seen as a reliable partner and ally.
    Obviously.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  2. #22
    AqD's Avatar (~‾▿‾)~
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Within months of Trump’s assuming the office of president, Germany’s Chancellor Angela Merkel was already sounding the alarm that America could no longer be seen as a reliable partner and ally.
    Obviously.
    Said by someone who wouldn't even increase military budget to protect itself let alone any ally.

    Has it ever been a true alliance? Looks more like bunch of protectorates...
    Last edited by AqD; November 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Warren is right... "America is strongest when we work together with our allies – including the 28 NATO members who share our democratic values. Undermining NATO is a gift to Putin that Donald Trump seems all too happy to give".

    Sanders is right...."refusing to defend other NATO countries sets a dangerous precedent for the balance of global power"
    It is quite ridiculous to claim that Trump is somehow compromising "American allies" by ending the parasitic relationship between foreign militaries and pockets of American taxpayers. Want tanks and planes? Pay for them, this isn't a charity.
    Also it is funny how "democratic" socialists outed themselves as globalist shills.

  4. #24
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    "It is quite ridiculous to claim that Trump is somehow compromising "American allies" by ending the parasitic relationship between foreign militaries and pockets of American taxpayers. Want tanks and planes? Pay for them, this isn't a charity."

    Your still not clear how hegemony runs than.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #25
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Said by someone who wouldn't even increase military budget to protect itself let alone any ally.
    Whom does Europe need protection against?
    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Has it ever been a true alliance? Looks more like bunch of protectorates...
    Yup
    .







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Your still not clear how hegemony runs than.
    You keep writing this as though you are in favor of Hegemony...

  7. #27
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    You keep writing this as though you are in favor of Hegemony...
    That's not how I understood him.
    .







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    "It is quite ridiculous to claim that Trump is somehow compromising "American allies" by ending the parasitic relationship between foreign militaries and pockets of American taxpayers. Want tanks and planes? Pay for them, this isn't a charity."

    Your still not clear how hegemony runs than.
    If you want to control the world, then go for it yourself. American taxpayers don't owe you to financially back your imperialist visions.

  9. #29
    AqD's Avatar (~‾▿‾)~
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Whom does Europe need protection against?
    Putin? It has to be important that they actually worry about Trump's intention to stop babysitting them.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Putin? It has to be important that they actually worry about Trump's intention to stop babysitting them.
    I feel like graphs like this one are a tired meme:


    Kinda bizarre they're still needed.

    The combined military expenditure of the member states [of the EU] amounts to just over is €192.5 billion. This represents 1.55% of European Union GDP and is second only to the €503 billion military expenditure of the United States.
    France alone already outspends the RF armed forces. The four largest militaries in the EU alone spend more than thrice the budget of the Russian armed forces.

    Never mind the nukes or that this new cold war is not in Russia's interests and entirely the result of Western aggressive warmongering.
    .







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  11. #31

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Putin? It has to be important that they actually worry about Trump's intention to stop babysitting them.
    Merkel and her EUSSR comrades pander to Russia far more then Trump does, mainly for economic reasons.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Wait can the US do too...

    In any case of course NATO will face fracture. The USSR is dead. Putin might be a threat to Georgia or the Ukraine but realistically not very far outside his near abouts. That states like Turkey might even drift out of NATO seems like normal. US demands are a bit incoherent (especially Trump's) what do what Europe to spend more on what anyway? 'Europe' is still basically a collection of two different overlapping alliances of nation states not a country. Its military spending is thus when aggregated inefficient, but both alliances serve US interests fairly well and have done well for both sides of the Atlantic. If you want to play at hegemony you do sorta have to hold up your end of the bargain - doing the heavy lifting.
    I am afraid it's not that simple. If Turkey were to drift out of NATO, the blow would be significant, as Turkey is a significant country. Not only do they have the second largest NATO army, they are also strategically placed. Should they join Russia, then Russia would have access to the so called "warm seas".
    I would assume that, living only a few miles away from Moscow you would be more concerned about Russia gaining strength.

  13. #33
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    If you want to control the world, then go for it yourself. American taxpayers don't owe you to financially back your imperialist visions.
    Umm that would the American tax payers who have benefited from US post war hegemony for how long now?

    ---------------

    I would assume that, living only a few miles away from Moscow you would be more concerned about Russia gaining strength.
    Good one

    I am afraid it's not that simple. If Turkey were to drift out of NATO, the blow would be significant, as Turkey is a significant country. Not only do they have the second largest NATO army, they are also strategically placed. Should they join Russia, then Russia would have access to the so called "warm seas".
    Did not intend to sound dismissive, just Turkey's fit in NATO is difficult lacking the cold war and the fact that Turkey and EU have drifted apart. Also Putin's Russia is not Stalin's or Khrushchev's USSR. Yes the Czar want's to be a player but a sustained fall in oil back around $40 would attenuate his ambitions quickly, as of course would a rise to $100 do the opposite. Until he really manages sustain population growth (vs just not collapse) and not being a petro state I am not so worried about Mediterranean access. His war in the Ukraine is costly, and if he takes more he will be on the hook to make locals happy. He has not cut the military but social spending at home, that could be harder to play even at current oil prices for the longer term.
    Last edited by conon394; November 16, 2019 at 06:21 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #34
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Umm that would the American tax payers who have benefited from US post war hegemony for how long now?
    Depends. The elites for very long yes.

    The middle & lower classes have been falling apart for decades now.
    .







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  15. #35

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Americans have a weird way of looking at NATO.

    A NATO member state has been attacked exactly TWICE since it was established. In 1982 Argentina attacked the soveriegn territory of the UK, no NATO state provided significant military assistance.

    America as attacked in 2001 and all NATO nations sent support in he resulting Afghan conflict.

    Yet Americans whine and say they are protecting us? NATO has benefitted America more than any other NATO member state.

  16. #36
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    The middle & lower classes have been falling apart for decades now.
    Yes but that is really the result of largely internal US policy decisions. The broader security gains and alliance gains from NATO and all other US Europe cooperation are a fact. And said cooperation helped the US very much and did nothing to cause US wealth or income inequality.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Yes but that is really the result of largely internal US policy decisions. The broader security gains and alliance gains from NATO and all other US Europe cooperation are a fact. And said cooperation helped the US very much and did nothing to cause US wealth or income inequality.
    i'm really not seeing the benefits from NATO other than a captive market for US arms manufacturers; funny how the free market is the one thing that NATO's US leaders can't stand.

    Furthermore, US leadership over NATO is underwritten by the US economy being the world's largest and the US currency being THE world reserve currency. Neither of those two things will be a factor in the coming decade.

    EDIT:
    Trump asks Japan to hike payments for U.S. troops to $8 billion: Foreign Policy
    Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-j...rce=reddit.com

    I'm failing to see the benefits that the Japanese can experience from this "alliance".
    If it looks and quacks like an extractive, neocolonial, imperialist relationship, it's an extractive, neocolonial, imperialist relationship.

    What amuses me is that America's leaders were so obviously high on their own supply that they thought China would behave like Japan in this respect.
    Last edited by Exarch; November 17, 2019 at 04:19 AM.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Umm that would the American tax payers who have benefited from US post war hegemony for how long now?
    Source? So far the only result is trillions that were spent on useless and endless wars instead of being spent on things like infrastructure, healthcare or scientific research. I think you confused American taxpayers with military-industrial complex (which is at this point a parasitic entity), and foreign lobbies.

  19. #39
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Americans have a weird way of looking at NATO.

    A NATO member state has been attacked exactly TWICE since it was established. In 1982 Argentina attacked the soveriegn territory of the UK, no NATO state provided significant military assistance.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...s-7618420.html

    You'd have to define significant but the US did support the UK during the Falklands conflict.

  20. #40
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Nato alliance experiencing brain death, says Macron

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Yes but that is really the result of largely internal US policy decisions. The broader security gains and alliance gains from NATO and all other US Europe cooperation are a fact. And said cooperation helped the US very much and did nothing to cause US wealth or income inequality.
    That's not entirely true, given that the exorbitant military spending is part of that same architecture (even though some of it surely is due to lobbying), and that money is lacking elsewhere. Military is a good stepping stone for poor people to get ahead, but other than that, spending on military is the worst way to help your economy. Much better would be to invest into a crumbling infastructure. This would automatically help not only the middle class, but also commerce in general. But as I surely don't have to lay out for you, said infrastructure is left to rot. Often quite literally. Point being that, and the same was true for the Roman empire, over-extension and economic decay come hand in hand.
    .







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