UK election thread

[Cope]

Whats the legal right? It can't trample over the right of self determination.

Yes it can.

[Aexodus]

On a separate note: Aexodus, if you don't mind me asking, how significant would you rate the seat changes in Northern Ireland? DUP losses mean there's now supposedly a Nationalist majority of seats elected to Westminster, but I don't imagine that'll lead to much changing in the short term, right?

It’s disappointing that there’s more Nationalist MPs, but at least it was on difference of 57 votes in Fermanagh which Sinn Fein kept narrowly. Additionally, North Down which is by far a majority Unionist seat and used to to be represented by Independent Unionist Lady Hermon, has flipped to Alliance which is supposedly neutral.

[Vanoi]

Yes it can.

According to what again? You haven't told me the legal right either. Self-Determination is enshrined within the UN and international law that the UK are signatories to.

[Cope]

According to what again? You haven't told me the legal right either. Self-Determination is enshrined within the UN and international law that the UK are signatories to.

Westminster is the sovereign body in the United Kingdom. If you want to get involved in the complexities of the constitutional competencies of the devolved parliament, you can start here. Non of the provisions set out in the act or its amendments entitle the devolved body to unilaterally declare independence. According to precedent, Westminster would need to authorize any independence referendum via a section 30 order.

[Cohors_Evocata]

Westminster has the legal right to prevent another Scottish independence referendum from taking place.

The headache for London is that, as far as the SNP are concerned, all roads lead to independence. It really doesn't matter whether there's a Conservative or Labour government, whether the United Kingdom is in or out of the European Union or whether there has been a recent plebiscite on the issue. Had Labour prevented Johnson from achieving a majority this morning, Sturgeon's price for cooperation would have been another referendum, even if Corbyn's prospective 2nd. referendum on Europe returned a result for remain.

I mean, that is kind of their shtick after all. I suppose if the SNP had lost seats it wouldn't be shouting quite as loudly, but this election result is perhaps as good a chance as they're going to get in the next couple of years to build momentum - they'd be mad not to try it. Depending on how Brexit and Tory rule take shape from now on, they're in a prime position to present Scotland as being ignored in favour of English interests.

It’s disappointing that there’s more Nationalist MPs, but at least it was on difference of 57 votes in Fermanagh which Sinn Fein kept narrowly. Additionally, North Down which is by far a majority Unionist seat and used to to be represented by Independent Unionist Lady Hermon, has flipped to Alliance which is supposedly neutral.

Fair enough. I suppose that's mostly business as usual then.

[Vanoi]

Westminster is the sovereign body in the United Kingdom. If you want to get involved in the complexities of the constitutional competencies of the devolved parliament, you can start here. Non of the provisions set out in the act or its amendments entitle the devolved body to unilaterally declare independence. According to precedent, Westminster would need to authorize any independence referendum via a section 30 order.

You do realize that doesn't stop the right of self-determination. Plenty of countries don't have provisions in their Constitutions to allow for secession but many of them like Sudan have been forced to accept referendums regardless.

UK is no different and denying the right of the people to determine who they're ruled is at best completely undemocratic.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

According to what again? You haven't told me the legal right either. Self-Determination is enshrined within the UN and international law that the UK are signatories to.

You're being naive, states can and constantly do prevent independence referendum's, just look at Catalonia.

[Cope]

You do realize that doesn't stop the right of self-determination. Plenty of countries don't have provisions in their Constitutions to allow for secession but many of them like Sudan have been forced to accept referendums regardless.

UK is no different and denying the right of the people to determine who they're ruled is at best completely undemocratic.

The United Kingdom does have provisions in its constitution to allow for democratic secession. They require the assent of Westminster to take affect. Theoretically, the international community could intercede on the SNP's behalf, but unless there is some sort of dramatic change in circumstances that is extraordinarily unlikely.

[Vanoi]

You're being naive, states can and constantly do prevent independence referendum's, just look at Catalonia.

I'll raise you Sudan and Bolivia. Ignoring popular will is a bad idea.

[Copperknickers II]

Welp, Sturgeon has basically gone and called for a second Indyref to be held ASAP, claiming that while the election results in Scotland give her party a popular mandate to do so, while Tory losses there mean Johnson has no democratic right to prevent it from taking place.

Less than half of those who voted in this election voted for Brexit-supporting parties. Whilst it's also true that less than half of Scotland voted for the SNP/Scottish Greens, the SNP are proposing to hold a second referendum. The Tories meanwhile are going to skip the referendum and actually take us out of the EU, on the basis of only getting 40% of the vote (+c.5% for the Brexit party)? Democracy is a tricky business, but it seems pretty clear to me that if the Tories have a mandate for Brexit, the SNP have a mandate for a referendum.

Realistically speaking, there is no chance in hell the Tories will give permission for this (Javid has already come out and said as much), which I assume the SNP hope will further encourage Scottish sectionalism. Still, with a vote share of no more than 45%, I doubt much will come of this in the short run.

I don't know of any instance of Scotland being denied a referendum previously. Lacking such a precedent, the matter may end up in the Supreme Court, and thus be out of the Tories' hands. Meanwhile, Scottish social media is already full of murmurings about civil disobedience - this could get Catalonian quite quickly.

[Cope]

Less than half of those who voted in this election voted for Brexit-supporting parties. Whilst it's also true that less than half of Scotland voted for the SNP/Scottish Greens, the SNP are proposing to hold a second referendum. The Tories meanwhile are going to skip the referendum and actually take us out of the EU, on the basis of only getting 40% of the vote (+c.5% for the Brexit party)? Democracy is a tricky business, but it seems pretty clear to me that if the Tories have a mandate for Brexit, the SNP have a mandate for a referendum.

The referendum on the United Kingdom's membership of the European Union has already happened; the fact that Westminster has been blocking Brexit for the past year doesn't somehow invalidate the 2016 election.

I don't know of any instance of Scotland being denied a referendum previously. Lacking such a precedent, the matter may end up in the Supreme Court, and thus be out of the Tories' hands. Meanwhile, Scottish social media is already full of murmurings about civil disobedience - this could get Catalonian quite quickly.

The Supreme Court is subject to the whims of Parliament. Anything it rules can be immediately overruled by new legislation - which could theoretically include the dissolution of the court itself.

[Aexodus]

The court probably should be abolished, it’s been an interesting experiment since it was set up in 2009 but I don’t think giving a court their power is a great idea..

But that’s not got a lot to do with the election. I’m pretty bemused at the fact that the Labour socialists aren’t taking responsibility for this defeat and instead seem to want to hold onto power.

[Copperknickers II]

The referendum on the United Kingdom's membership of the European Union has already happened; the fact that Westminster has been blocking Brexit for the past year doesn't somehow invalidate the 2016 election.

The circumstances and details of our exit were not known at that time. If the British public is still in favour of it, it should be no problem for the Tories to hold a confirmatory referendum. They are not doing so quite simply because they know they would lose it. That being said, I never argued that Johnson has no right to take Britain out of the EU - of course, from a Brexiteer perspective you can argue that he does. I just would like him to recognise Scotland's own mandate for our referendum. I don't see any reasonable basis for denying us this right.

The Supreme Court is subject to the whims of Parliament. Anything it rules can be immediately overruled by new legislation - which could theoretically include the dissolution of the court itself.

This is a fair point - whilst the past two years have provided all manner of astonishing new precedents, including checks on the government's executive power through the Supreme Court (and the Speaker's Chair), the massive Tory majority will now render most of them them historical curiosities rather than practicable constitutional changes, until such a time as we have another hung parliament. Since my previous post I'm now hearing the SNP is not considering the legal route as a serious option.

[Cope]

The circumstances and details of our exit were not known at that time. If the British public is still in favour of it, it should be no problem for the Tories to hold a confirmatory referendum. They are not doing so quite simply because they know they would lose it.

I would myself have supported a confirmatory referendum on exit possibilities, its just that whenever the idea was floated it always seemed to include a "remain" option; it was almost as if the intention was to use a 2nd. referendum as a front for reversing the first result rather than as a tool for building a consensus on how to leave. In the end, that sort of consensus could only be reached via a general election.

That being said, I never argued that Johnson has no right to take Britain out of the EU - of course, from a Brexiteer perspective you can argue that he does. I just would like him to recognise Scotland's own mandate for our referendum. I don't see any reasonable basis for denying us this right.

We could go round the houses here, but as I said all roads lead to independence with the SNP.

This is a fair point - whilst the past two years have provided all manner of astonishing new precedents, including checks on the government's executive power through the Supreme Court (and the Speaker's Chair), the massive Tory majority will now render most of them them historical curiosities rather than practicable constitutional changes, until such a time as we have another hung parliament. Since my previous post I'm now hearing the SNP is not considering the legal route as a serious option.

The Prime Minister should dissolve the Supreme Court and restore the Law Lords. He should then introduce legislation striking down all of the precedents set by Bercow.

[Aexodus]

Gonna post this map from the times, it shows the vote swing by constituency in 2017 and 2019.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Heathen Hammer]

Looks like Britain decided to avoid self-destruction after all. Next step should be to put no-deal Brexit back on the table.
Not surprised Corbyn changed his decision and is now refusing to resign. Wannabe leninist loser at his best.

[Freddie]

[The Gurkhan]

As has probably been mentioned, Labour have been jettisoning their core support (white working class) in favour of mostly worthless urbane middle class bourgeoisie for years. Corbyn was comically weak willed and missed several opportunities to crucify his morally bankrupt corrupt Tory opposition. People were voting about Brexit. All he had to do was adopt his historic position of being anti-EU from a left wing perspective and he would already have many a working class Brexiteer's ear. They didn't care why or how they just wanted someone to continue with Brexit. Added bonus if he had gone all anti-immigrant from a leftist perspective. Depressed wages etc. Big vote winner.

Why didn't he do any of this? Is he senile?

[95thrifleman]

An Indy scotland would be funny. The SNP has ed up their nhs, would be nice to see it all go to under their one-party state without being able to blame the English everytime they get criticised.

[Cope]

Cringe.