View Poll Results: For which party would you vote?

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  • Conservative Party.

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  • Brexit Party.

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  • Scottish National Party.

    2 10.00%
  • Labour Party.

    7 35.00%
  • Liberal Democrats.

    2 10.00%
  • Democratic Unionist Party.

    0 0%
  • Sinn Féin.

    2 10.00%
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    0 0%
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    1 5.00%
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Thread: UK election thread

  1. #41
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Then I wouldn't vote Conservative either. Wait until you hear about how under the Conservative Government, the UK security services directly collaborated with loyalist paramilitary groups leading to the deaths of hundreds of people. Probably doesn't count though because something... something... Jeremy Corbyn amirite?

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-31261593.html
    Why are you making that a partisan issue? Many different governments and both main parties have allegations against them.

    I wouldn't take that too seriously if I were you. Even if Labour get a majority (which they won't, too many Gammons voting Tory) they're highly unlikely to abolish capitalism and turn the UK into a full on Marxist Republic. Put the Daily Mail down for a second and come back to reality.

    However the divide between rich and poor is as wide as its ever been and getting wider. Addressing this problem is hardly Maoist...
    I don’t really care if it’s realistic or not, it’s a black mark against Corbyn.

    He said something idiotic, which he apologised for.
    .
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...comment-labour
    I don’t believe him.

    What makes you think I don’t? The Ulster Resistance and the Third Force were a bunch of posers, but the connections to Billy Wright among other things are why I vote UUP.

    If you want to talk about the DUP you can, but they’re not very relevant to the national picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  2. #42

    Default Re: UK election thread

    I tend to be a bit pessimistic, but I think the UK will start to fall apart in a bloody mess when Johnson gets in. The SNP will still have a majority of seats in Scotland and after Brexit part one, there will be increasing demands for a second referendum, which will grow louder and be accompanied by a border poll in Northern Ireland when he screws up Brexit part two, perhaps dependant on what happens in the US election... The government in Westminster will go on refusing, leading to a Catalan situation. With Patel in charge at the Home Office there will be an attempt to violently suppress any protests with some sort of emergency powers which will further aggravate the situation. Wales will hang on for a while, playing Montenegro to England's Serbia before it too goes its own way.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: UK election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Why are you making that a partisan issue? Many different governments and both main parties have allegations against them.
    Actually you did when you repeated the same old tired "OMFG!! Cobryn teh terrorist synthesizer!!!11one" trope whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that other parties have far worse people representing them including ACTUAL terrorists in some cases

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I don’t really care if it’s realistic or not, it’s a black mark against Corbyn.
    So reality plays no part in your political beliefs? Good to know. Saves me the time spent having to debate with someone who prefers delusions over facts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I don’t believe him.
    Convenient. Tell me. Do you reject all apologies from everyone ever? Or just the people you have an irrational grudge against?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    What makes you think I don’t? The Ulster Resistance and the Third Force were a bunch of posers, but the connections to Billy Wright among other things are why I vote UUP.
    Fair enough. Can't argue with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    If you want to talk about the DUP you can, but they’re not very relevant to the national picture.
    If holding 8 out of 18 seats in N. Ireland, and spending two years propping up a Conservative minority government is "not very relevant", I'd love to see what is...

  4. #44
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Actually you did when you repeated the same old tired "OMFG!! Cobryn teh terrorist synthesizer!!!11one" trope whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that other parties have far worse people representing them including ACTUAL terrorists in some cases
    Sure, but that’s not the party leadership, and it’s whataboutism. You haven’t yet provided a reasoning for the 87 motion nust after the Enniskillen bombing blaming Britain for the troubles and claiming I as a Brit, am occupying my own country.

    So reality plays no part in your political beliefs? Good to know. Saves me the time spent having to debate with someone who prefers delusions over facts...
    It’s no delusion that the Labour leadership is socialist and wants to entirely deconstruct capitalism.

    [quote Convenient. Tell me. Do you reject all apologies from everyone ever? Or just the people you have an irrational grudge against?[/quote]

    No not at all. I reject it because I believe he meant what he said, so why would he be sorry for it? He is only sorry for any offence caused, which is trivial.

    “If I gave offence – and I clearly have – from the bottom of my heart I apologise. I apologise.”
    It’s not about causing offence. He should have been expelled from Labour as soon as it came to light he made those statements. It’s not about me being offended, it’s about McDonnel’s beliefs.

    Fair enough. Can't argue with that.

    If holding 8 out of 18 seats in N. Ireland, and spending two years propping up a Conservative minority government is "not very relevant", I'd love to see what is...
    Sure, but Foster isn’t a Prime Minister contender and the DUP or any other NI party is highly unlikely to prop up a government ever again. Most of the problems with the DUP are due to the troubles and the circumstances people found themselves in, as well as the fault of the individuals themselves. Therefore I wouldn’t compare Labour (who choose not to even stand in NI) or any mainland party, to a party born during our inter communal conflict in the 60s-90s. Again that’s not to say the DUP did no wrong, cause they did.

    At the end of the day, politics in Ireland is far more complicated than anywhere else in Western Europe. Even the UUP had a militia force in the 1910s started by Carson and Craig.

    Back to the main point, Labour has a problem with terrorist sympathies that other parties do not in anywhere near the same respect. That Tory councillor or the Brexit Party MEP pale in comparison. This is why I detest the Labour leadership so much. The people they have sympathy with, are people who murdered and held people of mine at gunpoint while wiring a bomb, leaving them with lifelong psychological problems, same goes for most people.

    People should not romanticize terrorists, they should not commemorate them, which John McDonnel does. The fact he still has a plaque to IRA ‘martyrs’ in his office is partly why I do not believe he actually regrets the contents of what he said - ‘the ballot the bullet and the bomb [should unite Ireland]’ which undermines his apology for saying ‘It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA’.

    The earlier comments were not the ones in 2003 he apologised for, it was 1986. So he has a long history of sympathy and support for the IRA.

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/new...-34239947.html
    Labour shadow chancellor John McDonnell allegedly called for the "ballot, the bullet and the bomb" to unite Ireland - and joked that 'gutless wimps' who refused to meet Sinn Fein should be knee-capped at the height of the Troubles.

    According to The Times, the remarks were made at a public meeting of 100 people including members of the IRA's political wing, at a pub in New Cross, South London in 1986 - before the peace process.

    The newspaper says it has uncovered archive material showing Mr McDonnell suggested with black humour that Labour councillors who boycotted the meeting should have their "knee-caps shot off".

    The IRA continued using bombs after Mr McDonnell's speech and in 1987 - a year later - eleven people were killed in the Enniskillen bombing on Remembrance Sunday.
    The bombing after which the socialists claimed the troubles were due to ‘British occupation’.

    More on the IRA plaque.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...aque-honouring
    The commemorative item honours the 10 IRA and INLA hunger strikers, who died in the Maze prison in County Down, Northern Ireland, in 1981.

    Among those whose names are inscribed on the plaque are Francis Hughes, who was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of a British Army soldier in 1980.
    Given to him by a bomber and murderer Killer Kelly.

    The plaque was a gift to Mr McDonnell from Hayes Gaelic Club, and was presented to him in 2004 by convicted IRA bomber Gerry Kelly.
    This man believes in a United Ireland. He doesn’t believe in the United Kingdom, is a self-proclaimed Marxist and is UTTERLY UNFIT FOR OFFICE.

    In the Financial Times interview, Mr McDonnell said: "I’ve always honestly and openly said I believe in a united Ireland, but the point was to try and get to a united Ireland without the violence."
    https://www.ft.com/mcdonnell
    McDonnell lists his hobby in Who’s Who as “fermenting (sic) the downfall of capitalism”. As a previously self-proclaimed Marxist — and past admirer of Venezuela’s socialist state — he is perhaps the most leftwing person ever to hold the role of shadow chancellor.

    He was recorded at one meeting in 2011 encouraging unhappy workers to spit in their bosses’ tea.
    Ken Livingstone, the leftwing former mayor of London, sacked him in the 1980s for being too radical. For certain business leaders, the idea of McDonnell in the Treasury is starting to eclipse Brexit as a pressing political concern
    An avid reader, he is inspired by Gramsci, the Italian Marxist who believed socialism would triumph by infiltrating “schools, universities, churches and the media”.
    In 2014, McDonnell approvingly quoted the idea of Tory MP Esther McVey being lynched, and he once joked about “garrotting” Danny Alexander, a former Lib Dem cabinet minister. “He survived, didn’t he?” McDonnell retorts, when asked.
    Nothing wrong with dark humour but it’s hypocritical for Labour to want hate speech laws when their Chancellor is like this.

    In a 2006 interview, McDonnell said his inspirations were “the fundamental Marxist writers of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky, basically”. When he ran a book club at the Trades Union Congress, members would joke that they had to read the same book every week: Das Kapital.
    A centrist Labour MP predicts the shadow chancellor will “go for broke” if he ever gets into power. “There are a lot of people who will never, ever trust him . . . he’s very, very authoritarian.”
    Last edited by Aexodus; November 29, 2019 at 12:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  5. #45
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    Are we seriously arguing over Corbyn aiming to abolish capitalism? I thought that the fear-mongering about Bolsheviks at the gates was limited to the United States, but I was apparently mistaken. Corbyn did not suggest to "entirely deconstruct capitalism", but simply attacked its extreme, unregulated version as responsible for the financial crisis, from which, rather ironically, many British that get provoked by your average tabloid's propaganda gravely suffer. It was a generic remark, whose premise is recognized as true by the majority of mainstream economists, and which would normally be labelled as center-leftist.

    Nowadays, of course, where right-wing political correctness dominates the public discourse, references to even the mildest principles of social-democracy are considered and rejected as a cordial endorsement of Marxism. Anyway, for an overview of the Labour's leader supposed radicalism, Spike, a conservative magazine supported by the Koch brothers, provides an interesting analysis. His manifesto basically consists of populist calls to partially reverse the course of privatisation and austerity Britain has followed since the premiership of the Iron Lady. Nothing exceptional, just your regular anti-Tory electoral promises, which are, in my opinion, as likely to materialise as Tony Blair's renovation of the international pro-worker movement.

  6. #46
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    John McDonnel literally said he wanted to abolish capitalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  7. #47
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    No, he really doesn't. He's simply targeting what he describes as unfettered capitalism, where free market reigns supreme and the public authorities are unable to provide for social security and a moderate redistribution of income through progressive taxation. He just repeats a couple of standard points from the social-democratic textbook. It would be more productive if we applied the same criteria of determining radicalism to the center-leftist parties as we do with the far-right groups. So, are you agreeing that Corbyn never claimed that he would abolish capitalism?
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; November 29, 2019 at 06:42 PM.

  8. #48
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    How on Earth are Corbyn and McDonnel social democrats?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  9. #49

    Default Re: UK election thread

    I did not realize the UK had an extreme unregulated form of capitalism...

  10. #50

    Default Re: UK election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    How on Earth are Corbyn and McDonnel social democrats?
    They are "democratic socialists" rather than "social democrats"... not that it really matters because there isn't even a snowball in hell's chance of a Labour majority.
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  11. #51
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    Thanks, Aexodus, for the links about the claim that Corbyn "blamed terrorist attacks such as the Enniskillen bombing on the UK government". You provided serious news sources. Even so, like TheLeft, it seems to me that it doesn't seem unreasonable to regard the terrorist violence as having something to do witn the history of British rule in Ireland. It's been reported that this doesn't prevent Corbyn from blaming the IRA for the terrorist attacks they carry out:

    Jeremy Corbyn has described the IRA as terrorists, condemned their acts of murder unconditionally and said they and the British army were not equivalent participants in the Northern Ireland conflict. - The Irish Times
    This issue seems to be a litmus test of how people feel about Corbyn - those who hate him see him as a terrorist sympathiser, those who are unsure of him or who like him tend to see the evidence as more mixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    It’s no delusion that the Labour leadership is socialist and wants to entirely deconstruct capitalism.
    Socialist, yes. While I agree with you that abolishing capitalism is an extreme view, I wonder what makes you believe that he wants to "entirely deconstruct capitalism"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Are we seriously arguing over Corbyn aiming to abolish capitalism? I thought that the fear-mongering about Bolsheviks at the gates was limited to the United States, but I was apparently mistaken. Corbyn did not suggest to "entirely deconstruct capitalism", but simply attacked its extreme, unregulated version as responsible for the financial crisis, from which, rather ironically, many British that get provoked by your average tabloid's propaganda gravely suffer. It was a generic remark, whose premise is recognized as true by the majority of mainstream economists, and which would normally be labelled as center-leftist.
    This sounds right to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Nowadays, of course, where right-wing political correctness dominates the public discourse, references to even the mildest principles of social-democracy are considered and rejected as a cordial endorsement of Marxism. Anyway, for an overview of the Labour's leader supposed radicalism, Spike, a conservative magazine supported by the Koch brothers, provides an interesting analysis. His manifesto basically consists of populist calls to partially reverse the course of privatisation and austerity Britain has followed since the premiership of the Iron Lady. Nothing exceptional, just your regular anti-Tory electoral promises, which are, in my opinion, as likely to materialise as Tony Blair's renovation of the international pro-worker movement.
    Well said!

    What surprises me about the current stage of the election campaign is why the support for both the Conservatives and Labour appears to be holding up so well. After incidents such as Corbyn's widely mocked performance in the Andrew Neil interview and the struggles by Conservatives in TV interviews to explain how retaining 18,500 nurses and recrutiing 31,500 is the same as having the '50,000 more nurses' they promised, I'd have expected both big parties to be losing support, but they don't seem to be. I wonder if anyone can explain this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos View Post
    They are "democratic socialists" rather than "social democrats"... not that it really matters because there isn't even a snowball in hell's chance of a Labour majority.
    Yes, at the moment it looks like Labour have no chance to win, the Conservatives are polling at about 42% and Labour at about 32%. It looks like "Get Brexit Done" in 2019 is the equivalent of "Take Back Control" in 2016 - the simple slogan which convinces enough people.

  12. #52
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    I wonder what makes you believe that he wants to "entirely deconstruct capitalism"?
    Making McDonnel the shadow chancellor is the main thing. His history of far left politics as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Nowadays, of course, where right-wing political correctness dominates the public discourse, references to even the mildest principles of social-democracy are considered and rejected as a cordial endorsement of Marxism.
    Very well said.
    ----
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    From the news
    Wealthy US donors gave millions to right-wing UK groups - The ...
    Revealed: Russian donors have stepped up Tory funding ...

    And nobody cares.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Back to the main point, Labour has a problem with terrorist sympathies that other parties do not in anywhere near the same respect.
    It's the usual coordinated incitement campaign against critical voices in the Labour.
    Should Corbyn become PM, Israel-UK security relationship likely to end
    Top U.K. Rabbi Accuses Corbyn of Failing to Stem Anti

    What is at stake is the fact that Corbyn said again that recognizing a Palestinian state would be one of his first steps if elected PM,

    "Let me say a few things regarding the prevention of justice and rights of the Palestinians," Corbyn said in a speech to Labor Party members at the conclusion of the party's annual convention.
    "Our party is united in condemning the shooting of hundreds of unarmed demonstrators in Gaza by the Israeli security forces and the passing of the discriminatory Nation State Law. The continued occupation, the expansion of illegal settlements and the imprisonment of Palestinian children is a scandal. We support a two-state solution — a secure Israel and a secure and feasible Palestinian state,” said Corbyn.
    "But a quarter of a century after the Oslo Accords, we are no closer to justice and peace and the Palestinian tragedy continues, while the world stands by," Corbyn continued.
    "As my good friend Uri Avnery, who passed away this year, said: 'What is the alternative to peace, a catastrophe for both peoples,' and in order to help make the two-state solution a reality, we must recognize a Palestinian state as soon as possible."
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 30, 2019 at 08:32 PM.
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  14. #54
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    An anecdote if I may, I remember how in the last great economic crisis (2008), it was common (politicians, journalists) to talk about how we could not allow that to happen again and how we should change our habits (citizens / consumers) and the present economic system. That wild capitalism was less wild and uncontrolled than the current one, I think (I admit that I have no wubing idea of economy). And now any criticism of it, however minimal (and infrequent), is labeled as communism or as a crazy idea of some naive leftist.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    I hope Corbyn & co will at least be able to form a minority government. There is a lot of time left in this election and the tory party simply has no positive message, so they seem set to keep losing voters. While Corbyn gaining a majority seems very difficult, he may well end up with most votes or enough to form a coalition with the SNP.
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  16. #56

    Default Re: UK election thread

    Its seems that conservative, as corrupt (and not even really conservative as they really are) are a lesser evil compared to economically illiterate Labor party, especially with its history of rubbing shoulders with actual terrorist groups.

  17. #57
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: UK election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    I hope Corbyn & co will at least be able to form a minority government. There is a lot of time left in this election and the tory party simply has no positive message, so they seem set to keep losing voters. While Corbyn gaining a majority seems very difficult, he may well end up with most votes or enough to form a coalition with the SNP.
    Keep losing voters? Polls show the opposite, they've been gaining steadily for months now.


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