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Thread: KH Government Availability

  1. #1

    Default KH Government Availability

    Recently captured Side in a KH campaign. It has a minor poleis, yet the only factional government I can build is the military occupation (not the starting gov, the one that gives regional troops and 10% happiness malus). Shouldn't I be able to build an Allied City State gov with the presence of the poleis? Or is there other factors such as the amount of Hellenistic culture present?

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    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    When is it in your game? These are the reqs for the Allied City State:

    Code:
    and not building_present govallied and not building_present colony_eastern and building_present hinterland_hellenistic_polis and not event_counter ecKoinonAdmin 1 and not event_counter ecKoinonSymploteia 1 and not event_counter ecKoinonSymploteiaEnd 1

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    While we are kind of on this topic, I'd like to point out something that bugs me. If you already have the "Supervised Native Administration", the "foreign military garrison" seems to inhibit you from building the upgrade of the "Supervised Hellenic Administration" after achieving over 50% cultural conversion to Hellenistic polities. This is at least the case for Emporion which I captured about a decade ago and am trying to build up in terms of infrastructure. I eventually want the Hellenic administration, but why not both that and the foreign military garrison? Especially since Koinon Hellenon is so crippled overall in terms of recruitment options (can have Deuteroi but can't have regular Phalangitai or Agema Phalangitai or even Mercenary Phalangitai recruited in the cities; can have Thorakitai and Epilektoi Hoplitai but can't have Epilektoi Thorakitai; can't even build new poleis, etc.).

    Oddly enough, however, I think I noticed that another settlement of mine that has the Supervised Hellenic Administration can also have the foreign military garrison. Do you just need to build the former first and then you can have the latter? And if you have it beforehand you just have to bulldoze it or something and rebuild it later?

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    While we are kind of on this topic, I'd like to point out something that bugs me. If you already have the "Supervised Native Administration", the "foreign military garrison" seems to inhibit you from building the upgrade of the "Supervised Hellenic Administration" after achieving over 50% cultural conversion to Hellenistic polities. This is at least the case for Emporion which I captured about a decade ago and am trying to build up in terms of infrastructure. I eventually want the Hellenic administration, but why not both that and the foreign military garrison? Especially since Koinon Hellenon is so crippled overall in terms of recruitment options (can have Deuteroi but can't have regular Phalangitai or Agema Phalangitai or even Mercenary Phalangitai recruited in the cities; can have Thorakitai and Epilektoi Hoplitai but can't have Epilektoi Thorakitai; can't even build new poleis, etc.).

    Oddly enough, however, I think I noticed that another settlement of mine that has the Supervised Hellenic Administration can also have the foreign military garrison. Do you just need to build the former first and then you can have the latter? And if you have it beforehand you just have to bulldoze it or something and rebuild it later?
    KH can recruit Hellenistic units with the Supervised Hellenic Admin without requiring colonists - and they can build their native governments in a broader range of places than anyone else. That's what they get for not being able to colonise.

    Foreign Military Colonies are inimical to setting up a developed Hellenic administration, because you're giving the prime land to foreign settlers, not Hellenistic ones. Foreign Colonies and Supervised Hellenic Admins are mutually exclusive (at least from the government side of things).

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    KH can recruit Hellenistic units with the Supervised Hellenic Admin without requiring colonists - and they can build their native governments in a broader range of places than anyone else. That's what they get for not being able to colonise.

    Foreign Military Colonies are inimical to setting up a developed Hellenic administration, because you're giving the prime land to foreign settlers, not Hellenistic ones. Foreign Colonies and Supervised Hellenic Admins are mutually exclusive (at least from the government side of things).
    That's strange because I was able to build a foreign colony building at Nikaia despite having a Supervised Hellenic Administration there. I'm glad about that too, because I can have cool native units plus the Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai now that I've reached the Thorakitai reforms (and thankfully I can recruit them from Sinope too). I can't wait to take Crimea now that the Thureopherontes Toxotai foot archers will be available too, although it means breaking my decades-long alliance with the Bosporan faction.

    Speaking of the Thorakitai reforms, I have recently gained them and have built a Congress of the Hellenes at Athens, and yet I cannot recruit Oxybeles and Lithobolos artillery yet. What gives? I was able to recruit artillery as Epeiros and Macedonia in previous campaigns within a reasonable time frame and I remember doing so for Koinon Hellenon in an old v. 2.2b campaign. Jesus Christ, don't tell me you've ALSO removed artillery from KH's roster. It's bad enough they aren't even able to recruit regular phalangitai. Out of all the Hellenistic factions I have to say, KH has the absolute weakest roster. The Epilektoi Hoplitai unit does not make up for that, considering you can only recruit one at a time. Also doesn't help that the game makes you wait over 20 turns to recruit Thorakitai infantry, Aspidiotai Hippeis, Lonchophoroi Hippeis, and others when the reforms kick in.

    The game is doing the same thing to me in Italy with new Polybian Roman units despite the Romani clearly being able to recruit them before me as evidenced by the latest defensive siege I had to fight at Medilanon.

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    On top of all of that, I just noticed something else: KH doesn't seem to be able to recruit Thracian Katoikoi swordsmen or Celtic Galatian colonist swordsmen in Anatolia, at least not from the settlements that I have now (and I control about six of them now, including Pergamon). That's another huge blow to their roster, seeing how they cannot have Thorakitai Epilektoi or regular Phalangitai. If you're going to deny a bunch of heavy infantry units to KH that other Hellenistic factions can have, at least have something to replace them, some sort of equivalent (like the Epilektoi Hoplitai instead of Hypaspistai). Otherwise I feel completely robbed of having a balanced roster with enough heavy units available for recruitment in order to effectively combat against and compete with the Seleucids and Ptolemies, who can have a much wider array of units for recruitment.

    If I remember correctly, KH has a second reform after the League government, with founding cities or something? Is that what I have to wait for to obtain all of these, including the artillery, the Oxybeles and Lithobolos? I'm over 220 turns into the game and it's shocking how pathetically weak the KH roster is right now. If I had known this I wouldn't have bothered with a KH campaign.

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    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Artillery comes in their two top tier governments, as do the Colonist infantry (because it mimics the helcol_two).

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Artillery comes in their two top tier governments, as do the Colonist infantry (because it mimics the helcol_two).
    Okay. When exactly? Like I said, I'm already 20 some turns past the Thorakitai reforms and I have a relatively massive empire for the 3rd century BC stretching across the Mediterranean. What exactly do I need to do to trigger the next reform to gain higher tier governments? Like I said, I already have the Congress of the Hellenes in Athens.

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Okay. When exactly? Like I said, I'm already 20 some turns past the Thorakitai reforms and I have a relatively massive empire for the 3rd century BC stretching across the Mediterranean. What exactly do I need to do to trigger the next reform to gain higher tier governments? Like I said, I already have the Congress of the Hellenes in Athens.
    It's the Greek Founding League/Member governments, which come at the very end of their reform chain; nothing to do with the Hellenistic military reforms.

    The details of their reform are as per the thread in the subforum or the guide.

  10. #10

    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    While I mostly disagree that the KH has the weakest roster out of the Hellenic factions, it isn't exactly the strongest either.

    In my current KH campaign, its about 80 turns after the Thorakitai reform, and the reduction in Hoplitai/Mistorophoi numbers is hitting me hard. Thorakitai simply aren't common enough to replace them as my standard heavy infantry unit, and I've had to compensate by filling the ranks with inferior Hellenic units (machairophoroi) or by drafting local levies (in my current Anatolian wars, Thrakian colonists and elite Galatians do the job, Galatianised spearmen, Uazali, and Kappodokians... not so much).

    I'm getting back on track now because for whatever reason there's a surplus of Hoplite units in my Ionian cities, but once that goes, its back to the local levies. And another issue is that, from what I've seen, the best government I can get without a polis (Supervised Hellenic Admin) provides the bare minimum of Hellenic troops. Levy hoplites and Thureophoroi aren't exactly battle-winners.

    So from my experience, during the late-game the KH don't have a wide availability of native heavy infantry, or availability of heavy levy infantry to compensate for that. I think there should be alterations made to change this, maybe a wider Thorakitai availability? Or increased native recruitment? I know that mail-clad, widely-available late-game Hoplite units aren't going to happen (and yet a girl can dream....).

    However, these observations are all from my current campaign. If there's something blatantly obvious I'm missing here, I'm happy to be corrected.

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by Aodh Mór Ó Néill View Post
    While I mostly disagree that the KH has the weakest roster out of the Hellenic factions, it isn't exactly the strongest either.
    Agree entirely with this post, +1 rep, and glad to see that you've at least obtained the Galatian colonists and Thracian Katoikoi.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    It's the Greek Founding League/Member governments, which come at the very end of their reform chain; nothing to do with the Hellenistic military reforms.

    The details of their reform are as per the thread in the subforum or the guide.
    I just completely forgot about the PDF guide. I'm a little confused after reading it, though. How do I ensure that four different governors get the four needed Archon traits for Sparta and the Cyclades? Just entirely by chance after sticking random generals in certain settlements? Do they have to have a certain level of influence to be considered? I already own Korinthos, naturally, and I have way more than just four Symmachikon Koinon Allied League governments by now, so I've definitely surpassed those requirements. I see the fallback trigger dates for having the Sympolitea Hellenon founding member government type as 202 BC and 197 BC. The situation seems daunting right now as I'm facing several military crises and unit shortages, while it's still only 216 BC in my campaign, so reaching those trigger dates will take at least 70 more turns.

    Not happy about it, as I'd like to see those units right away, but it's good to know there's at least some kind of fallback I can rely on in the near future.

    EDIT: Never mind, I see the part about the Archons. I had no idea you had to have people of specific ethnic backgrounds or rather city-state citizenship in the proper locations for them to receive those traits. It is a major pain to remedy this but I'll shift some generals around now who have some influence and have them head back home to Greece to gain the proper archon traits.

  12. #12

    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Agree entirely with this post, +1 rep, and glad to see that you've at least obtained the Galatian colonists and Thracian Katoikoi.
    Sorry, you misunderstood me. The "elite Galatians" I referred to were the heavy spearmen. I have completed all of the KH reforms and I still, alas, am unable to recruit Galatian colonists (although I can recruit the Thrakians). Thank you for the rep though .

    While on the subject of Galatians, is the armour upgrade for the Raiders unfinished? There seems to be no visual difference between the unit pre and post reform.

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by Aodh Mór Ó Néill View Post
    Sorry, you misunderstood me. The "elite Galatians" I referred to were the heavy spearmen. I have completed all of the KH reforms and I still, alas, am unable to recruit Galatian colonists (although I can recruit the Thrakians). Thank you for the rep though .

    While on the subject of Galatians, is the armour upgrade for the Raiders unfinished? There seems to be no visual difference between the unit pre and post reform.
    Thanks for clarifying! It is the end of 215 BC and I have FINALLY started the Koinon reforms after getting four different archons. I have two founding member governments being built as I speak, with the Sympolitea revolt message received just in the previous turn. It'll take 12 turns to complete those government buildings at Rhodes and Corinth, so three years total until I get to recruit glorious Oxybeles and Lithobolos artillery! Yippee! I need them so badly for sieges. It's been such a sluggish waiting period, but I feel like once I have them things will change.

    I can also apparently recruit Cretan archers and swordsmen at Rhodos and Korinthos once those buildings are completed in the queue, another boon for recruitment. An extra Thorakitai unit is also welcome, since you can only recruit one at a time in other settlements. I'll let you know if I can recruit Galatian colonists anywhere. I recently played a full 700-turn Epeiros campaign before this one and I remember recruiting the Galatian colonist swordsmen from Pergamon and Alexandria in particular. It was only about ten turns ago that I took Ankyra from the Kingdom of Pontos, so I have to let my high influence governor sit there for a while and convert it to Hellenistic polities before entertaining the idea of building an allied government for recruiting the more elite Galatian noble spearmen and cavalry.

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Update for you O Neill: it's 209 BC and I have since passed the Sympoliteia disturbances and reforms, so I'm currently building the Greek League Member States over the Allied League ones. You're definitely right: there are no Galatian colonist swordsmen available for recruitment anywhere! However, I do have Thracian Katoikoi available, along with Galatian noble spearmen and cavalry recruited at Ankyra only.

    I also recently got the Late Libyan swordsmen and spearmen units available for recruitment in North Africa, so I'm kinda happy, but overall my opinion has not changed very much. Koinon Hellenon is fundamentally weak compared to all other Hellenistic factions. The Epilektoi Hoplitai unit being a stand-in for Thorakitai Epilektoi is not good enough considering how when I just played as Epeiros I was also able to recruit elite Hypaspistai and Makedones Peltastai at the same time. Koinon Hellenon also lacks both regular Phalangitai and Agema Phalangitai, although I am happy to see that the new governments I'm building at least expand the area for recruitment of weaker Deuteroi Phalangitai.

    I am salivating over the idea of breaking my alliance with Kimmerios Bosporos in order to take the Crimea and gain the Thureopherontes Toxotai, but in the meantime I have the horse archer variant (Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai) and the new KH League Member governments offer wider recruitment of the expert Cretan archers.

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Ah, you're right, Galatian Colonists only come from the highest tier of Hellenistic Colony, which KH doesn't have access to (and doesn't imitate with it's governments, since their top tiers mimic the helcol_two).

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    So it's just a mistake, then? That stinks. Oh well. Please fix it for the next patch, though, like the Celtic Cisalpine swordsmen.

    More than that, KH is also notably weak in another department I haven't really stressed here yet: cavalry!

    Yes, when you capture certain settlements you can have Thessalikoi and Hippomachoi Lydian lancers in limited supply, but you can't have anything like the Hetairoi of the successors, only standard Hippeis before the Thorakitai reforms (and barely anywhere to recruit Xystophoroi). Even after the Thorakitai reforms, while Thureopherontes Hippotoxotai, Aspidiotai Hippeis and Lonchophoroi hippeis do at least become available (along with Kataphractoi in a few select eastern provinces), KH only has access to African elephants from what I can tell. When I played Epeiros and took Antiocheia, I was able to recruit both standard AND armored Indian elephants from the stables of that city. Elephants are rarely used and recruited, but it's just another way to highlight how weak KH is compared to all the other Hellenistic factions.

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    No it's not a mistake, it was a choice. Their top tier government does not mimic the highest tier of the helcol. It might be arguable that the kh7 should, since you're limited to four of them.

    Thessalikoi and Hippomachoi are equivalent to Hetairoi, they're elite lancers.

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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    No it's not a mistake, it was a choice. Their top tier government does not mimic the highest tier of the helcol. It might be arguable that the kh7 should, since you're limited to four of them.
    I'm not talking about that and I realize KH does not and should not get the military colony building like the Macedonian successor states. I'm talking about one specific unit, Galatian colonist swordsmen, who complement the far more limited Galatian retainer spearmen and Galatian noble cavalry (only available at Ankyra once you capture it). Why is it that Galatian colonists shouldn't be available to KH via their own allied league government building or supervised Hellenic administration? You can't really make an argument along the lines of "well, Athens & Sparta never hired Galatian colonist mercenaries like Pergamon or other states". Epeiros never did that either! And yet I can recruit the Galatian colonists as the Epeirote faction once I build a large enough empire that extends into Anatolia, the Levant, and Egypt.

    Theoretically, if a Greek allied league became strong enough to do the same, they'd also be recruiting Galatians in Anatolia and Egypt. Why not? It seems like a no brainer to me. Not sure why you guys think otherwise.

    Thessalikoi and Hippomachoi are equivalent to Hetairoi, they're elite lancers.
    I get that, but other Hellenistic factions have access to these two units and the Hetairoi at the same time, whereas KH has no equivalent for the latter. It makes them weaker in the cavalry department and, as we've discussed before, it's not like KH is stronger when it comes to infantry availability. They were weaker in both categories. That's pretty bad. The only thing I see mitigating that is the fact that KH can build core government buildings in a lot of places around the Mediterranean, if you work hard for hundreds of turns to build a sizable empire, or if you're lucky enough to do that.

  19. #19

    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I'm not talking about that and I realize KH does not and should not get the military colony building like the Macedonian successor states. I'm talking about one specific unit, Galatian colonist swordsmen, who complement the far more limited Galatian retainer spearmen and Galatian noble cavalry (only available at Ankyra once you capture it). Why is it that Galatian colonists shouldn't be available to KH via their own allied league government building or supervised Hellenic administration? You can't really make an argument along the lines of "well, Athens & Sparta never hired Galatian colonist mercenaries like Pergamon or other states". Epeiros never did that either! And yet I can recruit the Galatian colonists as the Epeirote faction once I build a large enough empire that extends into Anatolia, the Levant, and Egypt.

    Theoretically, if a Greek allied league became strong enough to do the same, they'd also be recruiting Galatians in Anatolia and Egypt. Why not? It seems like a no brainer to me. Not sure why you guys think otherwise.



    I get that, but other Hellenistic factions have access to these two units and the Hetairoi at the same time, whereas KH has no equivalent for the latter. It makes them weaker in the cavalry department and, as we've discussed before, it's not like KH is stronger when it comes to infantry availability. They were weaker in both categories. That's pretty bad. The only thing I see mitigating that is the fact that KH can build core government buildings in a lot of places around the Mediterranean, if you work hard for hundreds of turns to build a sizable empire, or if you're lucky enough to do that.
    I wouldnt say KH is not strong when it comes to infantry outside of phalanxes. Sure you don't get access to regular or elite phalanxes, but they weren't the hellenes deal anyway (even been historically lenient they could get it at best as a regional makedonian unit) but other than that you get pretty much the same that hellenistic factions. Most regional/or standard infantry is similarly availble (Thorakitai for example is a matter of colonies vs goverments and both get from metropolis). The elite line infantry of hellenistic factions (Hypaspistai and later Epilektoi Thorakitai) is slighty better but they can recruit it only scarcely in the capital, while KH gets it in any of their top tier govs which are very abundant compared to most factions. Generals are infantry on par with the hellensitic elite which buffs up a bit your infantry in battles and while you dont get peltastai makedones either you get more recruitment of the only slightly worse peltastai logades as it comes from factional goverments and not only from polis.

    Cavalry is indeed weaker as you miss the elite cavalry general and you have no factional elite unit relying only on regionals, and only get good factional cavalry after reforms. But it isn't the end of the world and it does give character to the faction. I think they are a less avried and simpler faction when it comes to their roster, probably less versatile but by no means weak.

    To be honest the only thing I would like to see as an extra for this faction is given they are more traditional, having their standard hoplites get some reform/upgrade later on. Carthage actually gets this somewhat with the armour upgrade tried to the Barcid panoply reform. The continued use of hoplites is kind of the staple of the faction comapred to other hellensitics where hoplites are more accesories and never main units, and it would be cool if later on the game for this faction they could stay competitive and not just phase away to keep that uniqueness of still using the classical hoplite for a nice portion of their armies. I mean if the elites continue to be hoplites I don't know why the standard citizens wouldn't adapt and keep the style too. Though even with the upgrade carthage gets is very difficult to compete with throakitai specially if hoplites are gonna loose their tight formation which was almsot their only advantage.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



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    Default Re: KH Government Availability

    Although we won't agree much on the other issues, I totally agree and fully support the idea of upgrading the regular Hellenistic Hoplites for the Thorakitai era! As you suggest, the Carthaginian Liby Phoenician spear infantry (and others) get a heavier look with chain mail armor and slight armor bonus when the Barcid reform arrives. It would be very neat to see Hellenistic Hoplitai get the same treatment for Hellenistic factions, especially since they are such a mainstay for Koinon Hellenon as one of the most common units available.

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