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Thread: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 09.08.19)

  1. #1
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 09.08.19)

    Hi All!

    I would like to present you my little submod I call "Alternative Economy".

    This is a small project that focused of redoing certain aspects of how profits and costs work in this mod.

    To sum things up what this submod changes:
    -unit recruitment cost increased around 5 times
    -income from trade increased
    -building cost increased 6 times
    -building income increased 4.5 times
    -changed AI bonuses for difficulty levels so that AI also needs to develop provinces instead of just having high taxes but depending on difficulty, their buildings cost and unit upkeep are a bit lower
    -changed thresholds for how poor/wealthy faction is rated in diplomacy based on income per turn
    -Slightly increased income from main buildings in Sparta adn Pella (for better player and AI experience)
    -Seiger does not suffer casualties, only besieged side does


    How does above look in actual game?
    While income has been greatly increased, most of "one time" costs got increased even larger. This means that money can run out rather fast if you do unwise investments. In case of army, upkeep does not play as large role as it used to in base DeI but recruitment cost changes how the war is waged, also in case of AI. This means that if you play as small tribe and wage war against other small tribe and you beat their army, AI will most likely not be able to recruit new one or only in limited strength rather than pumping new full army each few turns. In terms of fighting larger and wealther factions, you have new challange as their initial armies in campaign might be rather good quality and in large numbers, their overal army composition will be made of cheaper and cheaper units as the war progresses, which means you can actually wage a war of attrition.

    This also makes you rethink military campaignes as if you have rather poor economy but good army, you might not be able to replace it if you lose it or take too large losses. Player army composition also changes as for example a unit of cataphracts can cost between 10,000 to 14,000 denarii. Lets say you have a full army of cataphracts, if you lose it, you would need to spend around 200,000 to 280,000 denarii to rebuild it! This changes the dynamic of recruitment cost and upkeep as in base DeI (where unit costs were pretty much made by me anyway), if you lose army, you get large income boost due to higher upkeep to unit cost relation, while here it is lower. Sure, after losing an army you might get few thousend extra money per turn BUT it might not be enough to have new and proper army in place in case of danger.


    Mercenaries play a bit different role in this one as they are slightly more costly to recruit and maintain than regular units but are often a better choice since military infrastructure is also a lot more costly, while mercs can be recruited without it.

    In terms of differences between factions, it is a lot more varied now. If you start as Arverni with single small and undeveloped village, you will have not too much income and you won't field expensive units but also your neighbours won't be able to spam elites. If you start as Seleucids, you have starting income of around 10,000 per turn BUT your units cost a lot (You can field Agema cavalry from start BUT that unit costs 10,000 to recruit and around 1500 of upkeep!) and if you just spend the money carelessly, you can get easily into trouble.

    I also highly recommend to play with No Attrition for Besieger, meaning that you or AI won't take casualties if you lay a siege to the city. AI should also siege now instead of just attacking. I haven't changed some techs yet that lower casualties for besieger but I will replace them with something else later, since they have no use with it.


    IMPORTANT!
    This is a test version and might need tweaks in different areas. Please report what you enjoy and what you dislike about the changes.
    PLEASE play first, without simply jumping to comments as often odd ideas on paper actually work in the game, while sometimes nice ideas do not work in the long run.
    Keep track of how AI develops their cities as I want AI be more restricted by the economy (As it does understand single cost investements, if just does not understand sustained costs like upkeep!) but I don't want it to ignore developing own cities or armies.


    Download:

    Steam link:
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...?id=1347813163
    Last edited by KAM 2150; September 08, 2019 at 06:25 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Interesting premise, I have a similar submod for the mercenaries, btw I checked the file and it seems that your building effects overwrite the default DEI tables, but yours only include the income buffs and not all the other building attributes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Is normal to have factions with starter income negative?

  4. #4
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Yes Dardo, I wanted to have it compatible with base DeI and any future patches from Dresden so I would not need to redo everything from start

    zSantyCz, which faction and which campaign? If you start with large and heavy army, you might be in the negative but it seemed always to be on positive for few factions I checked.

    EDIT: Also which difficulty level, because higher ones increase your upkeep.
    Last edited by KAM 2150; March 23, 2018 at 04:20 PM.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Wasn't the attrition significantly reduced in base DeI??? I kinda like how it is right now, cause attrition represents also the skirmishes during the siege building and that sort of thing.

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Epirus has -200 income

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    That could be due to their invading army in Italy.

  8. #8
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    Wasn't the attrition significantly reduced in base DeI??? I kinda like how it is right now, cause attrition represents also the skirmishes during the siege building and that sort of thing.
    it is but I do like to siege plus AI is more likely to do it either Especially with current borked siege AI from CA. It is optional to use anyway
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    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Main file has been updated, please redownload it as it forgot to rename certain tables so building effects would not load properly (I use a bit different file from the one uploaded as it has some other changes so I forgot to edit the main one).
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  10. #10

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    I would like to try this KAM, what campaign difficulty do you recommend for this?

  11. #11
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    For testing purposes I guess normal but I would not be mad if someone would try higher ones. If needed, I will add difficulty bonuses/penalties for the player and AI and tweak them to be more in line with stuff above.

    Also after few more turns with my pack I think I could decrease building income a bit (From 4.5 to 4 or 3.5) and maybe increase unit recruitment cost a bit (by 10-15%). Let me knows what you guys think.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    The income is already low enough as it is in my opinion.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Longer campaign will tell. After I made that comment above I had to make a bit stronger army and my income dropped down by around 3/4 while anything that could further boost my income would cost me around 45,000 denarii.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Just in time for me to play as Rome again. I'll let you know how it goes.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    I'm glad you decided to release this buddy. It's surely an alternative for the hardcore players.

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    I just started a new camping, so far well done again KAM .
    Will try to rapport back with more impressions. I play VH/N and I have a lot of my personal mods active so don't know how much my own messing about will affect the testing.

    The one concern I have is how will this affect the AI recruiting new armies in mid to end game. Sometimes AI just stops recruiting once you destroy the initial defending force, this make it's easy to conquer them. Making recruiting cost more can hurt the AI even more.
    Giving AI more cash don't seems to solve the problem, but maybe it will now.

    I usually just solve the problem by making a script that spawns new armies for the AI, or moving them using the SaveParser tool, sometimes the AI just have armies sitting in the middle of the sea doing nothing.
    But that not something you can put in the main mod.

  17. #17

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    I think the diplomatic values might have to be adjusted though, in terms of money to receive and give.

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dardo21 View Post
    I think the diplomatic values might have to be adjusted though, in terms of money to receive and give.
    agree

  19. #19

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    Being testing for like 10 turns the mod. I like the idea pretty much so I deleted the softcorenocai to try this. So far I see potential on it KAM well done.
    I just want to give my opinion:
    Everything should be touched. Raids should give huge penalties to food/supplies, slaves should give a lot of economy to compensate for other economy issues.

    This building is not worth for me. 12150/675=18turns to just pay off the building and in the next turn just receive a 0.05% profit. I don't remember now but maybe all buildings would need a bump in the profit they give you for the price they cost.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    What I extremely like is the idea of more expensive armies and the mercenary idea.
    All in all, I like how in the first turns I had to think about, recruiting a single unit? doing politician stuff? spy mechanics? damn it so great !!

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy

    I think this idea could be used in a "more hardcore" or something submod. Basically a submod that takes the hardcore version, adds this and maybe some of the other slower gameplay submods out there. A sort of extreme submod of some type for players who like that type of thing.

    Also, maybe eventually when you do your Ultimate commander submod KAM that could be added too.

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