Originally Posted by
Common Soldier
No, I don't. The slaves had to eat, and since they had no money, it had to be provided for them. I don't need to proved that the Scythian police needed air, or water to drink either. If you know of any slaves who were forced to buy their own food and clothing. I would you to provide that information..
If slaves have no money then their "wage" is equivalent to just their upkeep. If you think slave masters provide for their slaves more than what slaves earn for their masters, I would like you to provide that information.
Was the money paid directly to the slave or to the person who owned the slave? Doesn't all the property of a slave belong to the owner? Ifnthd money was paid to the owner, ornrhr slave turned over all money to the owner, then the owner would have to provide the food and clothing for the slave. If thr Mone was given directly to the slave, then yes, perhaps the cost of food and clothing was taken from the slaves wages
If money was given to the slave owner: Slave workers earn nothing but their upkeep
If slave masters take money from their slaves: Slave upkeep comes from the money they originally earned anyways
Either way it doesn't make slaves earn more money than what's shown on paper.
If you want to apply thr logic, then it applies to all ships, not just Roman ships. Dismmis the claims fornrhe Roman ships, we equally can dismiss claims for the Song and Ming ships as well.
That's your logic, don't you already do that? As I said for the third time, I'm not using my logic. In fact I'm using yours and applying it to Roman shipping rather than Chinese ones.
We do have Romans ships that were 400 tons, and I.said, we don't need to provide an example fornevery shipping run they sailed. The logic says there were no large ships from the early Ming, and the largest Song ship we have evidence for is a mere 300 tons, so we can't ships any larger actually existed in Song and Ming China.
It sounds like you want to discard the practice of solely using archaeological evidence to prove the existence of large ships. In which case Simaqian recorded that Tower ships were over 10 zhang high.
是时越欲与汉用船战逐,乃大修昆明池,列观环之。治楼船,
高十余丈,旗帜加其上,甚壮
Yue and Han were using ships for combat, Kunming Lake was greatly repaired.... Tower ships were built, over 10 zhang high, when a banner is added on top, then they are very magnificent.
As a matter of fact, some analysis of the contemporary evidence does indicate that Zheng He treasure ships were only 300 tons, consistent with the Chinese shipwreck remains we have found (Nanhai No. 1 shipwreck). Contemporary records mention 2000 Liao ships. Which works out 300 tons depending on the value you assign to the Liao. The Madrague de Giens supports the existence of 300 tons ships mentioned in the Roman written records. And the Lake Nemi and Caligula Giant ships do support the existence od 1400 tons ships like the Isis mentioned in the written refords. The hulls of the Lake Nemi ships were lined with lead, which served no purpose in fresh water, indicating the 60 meter hulls were adapted from sea going vessels of that size.
Contemporary evidence shows that Zheng He's Treasure ships were 5000 liao in size (1250 tons), not 300 tons, as you should well know considering you participated here:
https://historum.com/threads/can-any...1#post-3104735
Sally K Church:
A ship of about 200-250 ft would make much more sense than the 450 ft one. Such a ship would be large enough to transport the required number of people and amount of supplies and treasures. Although this was the maximum size of wooden ships in the West, this is not the reason why we should accept it as an optimum size. Gong Zhen’s evidence is perhaps the soundest – his statement that there were 200-300 men on the ships. This number of men could not have man- aged a ship of 20,000 tons, but would have been quite adept at handling ships of a smaller size, such as the Razee Corvette, a Ship-of-the-Line manned by 205- 220 men, or the Fifth Rate (46-gun) ship with a complement of 280-300 men.The Razee Corvette was 145 ft long, and 38.5 ft in the beam with a burden of 944 tons and a displacement of 1,280 tons. The Fifth Rate was over 150 ft long and 40 ft in the beam with a capacity of 1,063 tons burden and a displacement of 2,154 tons.132 Ships that are too large also have certain disadvantages, foremost among which is a loss of maneuverability. This lesson was learned by the Spanish Armada
She didn't have the evidence from Hong Bao's tomb which was excavated after her article. The tomb gives the first primary source evidence which says that Zheng He had 5000 liao ships, which is equivalent to 1250 tons burthen and 2000 tons displacement. This coroborrates with Sally K.'s estimation using Gong Zheng's quote that the ships were crewed by 200-300 men, from which she concludes that a ship of 300 crewmen would be the size of a fifth rate ship (1063 tons burthen, 2154 tons displacement, 150 feet in length). Still very large for the time period.
His Dudeness of TWC
POTF 18 - Nominations
once you achieve enough wins, but first you must be nominated in threads such as this one. And it works like this.
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