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Thread: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

  1. #121

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    "What did Trump do different?"
    "This."
    "No, that's not important, why have you not told me what Trump did different?"
    Not what I said but I understand why you bank on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Giving Israel the freedom to act was probably the single most important factor, one you haven't even attempted to argue against.
    Well, I have, quite a bunch of times at this point. I have argued against its value though showing whether it made a difference before or not, not that whether it happened or not. I do understand why you'd misrepresent what I argued though.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I'm going to be honest here, and I'm sorry if this offends you or you find it shocking, but just saying "no that's not important" is not a good argument.
    It certainly doesn't offend me if you don't like what I say. I do understand why you word it like that though.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Stop lying, that's not what I've said. "Largely annexing? Such as which deal?" Is what I asked after you claimed that "Deals often involved Israel largely annexing West Bank".
    No lie there, not that you're able to show it there. The only thing I stated there as your statement is you asking me to name a peace deal in question. You did ask me as you yourself demonstrate. So, what you're referring to when you say "that's now that I've said" is an enigma to me. I do understand why you'd distort my statements though.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Yes, they've all involved minor annexation of territory, but never largely, and certainly never 100% of settlements + the entire Jordan valley as the Trump deal did. Not even close.
    The peace process that happened under Obama and Clinton had vast majority of settlers stay put in exchange for land elsewhere. None of the deals had minor annexations. I'm giving that example since people compared Trump with Obama. Trump's plan doesn't cover all settlements in the West Bank by the way.
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  2. #122
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Well, I have, quite a bunch of times at this point. I have argued against its value though showing whether it made a difference before or not, not that whether it happened or not. I do understand why you'd misrepresent what I argued though.
    Of course it made a difference, allow me to repeat for the 3rd time the point which you've addressed 0 times: Israel's announcement of annexation and the US's green-lighting of it meant that someone else has to offer Israel something in return for cancelling those plans.


    No lie there, not that you're able to show it there. The only thing I stated there as your statement is you asking me to name a peace deal in question. You did ask me as you yourself demonstrate. So, what you're referring to when you say "that's now that I've said" is an enigma to me. I do understand why you'd distort my statements though.
    No. I asked you to name a deal in which Israel would "largely annex the west bank", as you've said. Not a deal in which Israel annexes some territory as you now falsely claim.

    The peace process that happened under Obama and Clinton had vast majority of settlers stay put in exchange for land elsewhere. None of the deals had minor annexations. I'm giving that example since people compared Trump with Obama. Trump's plan doesn't cover all settlements in the West Bank by the way.
    Majority of settlers, yes. But that is not a large amount of territory at all. Here's the Clinton proposal:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    As for during the Obama administration, I assume you mean Ehud Olmert's proposal:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    And yes, it's a bad map hand-drawn by him, here's what the accepted interpretation is:


    Are you seriously comparing them in amount of territory annexed in the Trump plan?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The previous deals don't even come close. It covers all settlements (you say not all, which aren't?) and it includes the entire Jordan river valley that neither of the previous plans did.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    There must have been a back deal. That's the explanation. What we've publicly seen so far doesn't really cut it. If people wanna attribute this deal to Trump they should be able to explain the dynamics of it. The arguments that have been put forward so far didn't produce much difference from other presidents.
    I agree 100%. Possibly the US is paying some high price so Trump looks good domestically. Or possibly I dislike Trump enough not to credit him.

    In any case the deal has been done and as the most powerful (not both necessary and sufficient, but still the most powerful) player Trump gets credit for allowing what is a Good Thing to happen, and maybe even positively contributing.

    Speaking of past presidents I recall Powell flying out to the region to try his hand as SecState, and Bush II scotching the mission while Powell was in the air with a blanket statement about not conceding certain things. I wish I could dig up a link, at the time it was seen as his death knell, but it was an example of how US domestic interests outweigh regional interests to an extraordinary degree.
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  4. #124

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    nhytgbvfeco2, I didn't read your post past the first sentence since it continued to utilize the same BS tactics that project the shortcomings of your own approach, namely throwing accusation of your points being ignored just because you didn't like the response you got. Good luck with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I agree 100%. Possibly the US is paying some high price so Trump looks good domestically. Or possibly I dislike Trump enough not to credit him.

    In any case the deal has been done and as the most powerful (not both necessary and sufficient, but still the most powerful) player Trump gets credit for allowing what is a Good Thing to happen, and maybe even positively contributing.

    Speaking of past presidents I recall Powell flying out to the region to try his hand as SecState, and Bush II scotching the mission while Powell was in the air with a blanket statement about not conceding certain things. I wish I could dig up a link, at the time it was seen as his death knell, but it was an example of how US domestic interests outweigh regional interests to an extraordinary degree.
    Deals made under such dubious circumstances do not leave strong footprints. It's effects on the ground are often negligible as they are symbolic and they can even fuel more hostilities in the ground. What Trump proposed to Bahrain or UAE should be known by the public. Otherwise, all I see is just these countries randomly decide to cozy up with Israel. What are they getting? Or more importantly what are they getting threatened with? There is also the option of being fooled into doing it while they keep appearances to not appear weak.
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  5. #125
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    nhytgbvfeco2, I didn't read your post past the first sentence since it continued to utilize the same BS tactics that project the shortcomings of your own approach, namely throwing accusation of your points being ignored just because you didn't like the response you got. Good luck with that.
    I gracefully accept your surrender.

  6. #126
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...w-fighter-jet/

    This is impressive.
    Before someone shows up and asks "what Trump has to do with it?!?" ... probably little directly, but he undoubtedly gave the "thumbs up" to the process that indeed designed a plane in record time. Also, people he put into position probably had to do with this.
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  7. #127

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...w-fighter-jet/

    This is impressive.
    Before someone shows up and asks "what Trump has to do with it?!?" ... probably little directly, but he undoubtedly gave the "thumbs up" to the process that indeed designed a plane in record time. Also, people he put into position probably had to do with this.
    The project likely started before Trump took office. Are we applauding Trump for not spoiling a project like that now?
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  8. #128
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...w-fighter-jet/

    This is impressive.
    Before someone shows up and asks "what Trump has to do with it?!?" ... probably little directly, but he undoubtedly gave the "thumbs up" to the process that indeed designed a plane in record time. Also, people he put into position probably had to do with this.
    my god, you cling to anything. soon you will be bragging about the stupid things he has not done (yet). (I recognize that expectations for him are, for everyone, that low).
    Last edited by mishkin; September 17, 2020 at 02:48 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  9. #129

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    *Trump manages to write his name without a typo* "WOW! Give the man a medal for his writing skills!!!"
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  10. #130
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The project likely started before Trump took office. Are we applauding Trump for not spoiling a project like that now?
    The project started in 2018.
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  11. #131
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Could you highlight where in the article it is said that the project originated in 2018?

    Anyway, why should this be considered a Trump personal success? On a quick read, I haven't seen any reference to him. (One could also wonder why this is a success of any kind, but hey).
    Last edited by mishkin; September 17, 2020 at 05:16 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  12. #132

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    The project started in 2018.
    Nope. This is the NGAD project. Various arms manufacturers have been teasing models for a decade now.

    April 2016: Forget developing a 6th generation fighter, restart the F-22
    On the contrary, the Air Force is already procuring the ultimate future fighter that will eventually replace the Raptor under the so-called Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program.
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  13. #133
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Anyway, why should this be considered a Trump personal success?
    As I said in the post:

    "Before someone shows up and asks "what Trump has to do with it?!?" ... probably little directly, but he undoubtedly gave the "thumbs up" to the process that indeed designed a plane in record time. Also, people he put into position probably had to do with this."


    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Could you highlight where in the article it is said that the project originated in 2018?
    "According to Defense News, the Air Force developed the new fighter in about a year—a staggeringly short amount of time by modern standards. The Air Force first developed a virtual version of the jet, and then proceeded to build and fly a full-sized prototype, complete with mission systems."
    The PotUS certainly had to give a thumbs up to the process at various stages.







    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    (One could also wonder why this is a success of any kind, but hey).
    It is a great innovating success because F-35 took like 10 years and as the article says it is the fastest that such a process has been since WW2. Efficiency counts. And it's a success and it's a success for the airforce and USA military.

    The same as the failure of such a system and a waste of money etc etc would be for the presidents involved, a success story is also a success for the PotUS.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. This is the NGAD project. Various arms manufacturers have been teasing models for a decade now.

    April 2016: Forget developing a 6th generation fighter, restart the F-22
    Sure, but this has been designed, built and tested within a year as the article says.
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  14. #134

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Sure, but this has been designed, built and tested within a year as the article says.
    Which is a technical breakthrough, not an administrative one.
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  15. #135
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    As I said in the post:

    "Before someone shows up and asks "what Trump has to do with it?!?" ... probably little directly, but he undoubtedly gave the "thumbs up" to the process that indeed designed a plane in record time. Also, people he put into position probably had to do with this."
    So, no, it can not be considered a Trump success.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "According to Defense News, the Air Force developed the new fighter in about a year—a staggeringly short amount of time by modern standards. The Air Force first developed a virtual version of the jet, and then proceeded to build and fly a full-sized prototype, complete with mission systems."
    It is not clear to me that this means that the project originated in 2018, but in any case it has already become clear that this cannot be considered a personal Trump success.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    It is a great innovating success because F-35 took like 10 years and as the article says it is the fastest that such a process has been since WW2. Efficiency counts. And it's a success and it's a success for the airforce and USA military.
    This is secondary, but I'm not sure that the priority for American society today or five years ago was to develop another fantastic and incredibly expensive war machine. I believed that the American military superiority was unmatched, they are now preparing to fight the aliens, I guess. Who surely is very happy is the company that will manufacture these airplanes. Congratulations to its manager and employees.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  16. #136
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    The whole annoucement reads more like those about new fancy chinese and russian Wunderwaffens, not About a real Jet.

  17. #137
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    @Mishkin:
    I agree that this is not a priority right now ( *cough * pandemic *cough* ) but it is certainly good to know that nowdays the USA military has the ability to design, build and test a new airplane in a single year and as importantly resist the urge to tell everyone about it. According to the article, it took 10 years for the F-35 to reach that stage.
    It is a technological success but these are people managed by people that Trump put in place.


    And another thing that I touched before, which is actually (IMO) a good success and I haven't thought of it: There have been few (if any) leaks about this. I think aside of the nuclear submarines, this new plane is the only one that they kept under wraps and do so still. About F-35, we knew a ton of things and specifications by the time it was tested.

    And let's be honest here: It's a great success at the personal level for Trump that he didn't tweet about this secret project.
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  18. #138

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    It is a technological success but these are people managed by people that Trump put in place.
    Who did Trump put in place that oversaw this project that was started long before him?
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  19. #139
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And let's be honest here: It's a great success at the personal level for Trump that he didn't tweet about this secret project.
    I would think he didn't tweet about it out of ignorance, but okay.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  20. #140
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Who did Trump put in place that oversaw this project that was started long before him?
    The project didn't start before him, since it was designed, built and tested within a year and that year was 2019-2020. I would think the previous general of the airforce as well as this one that assumed duties in late 2019 had a role to play in the the whole development being fast-tracked. General Mattis probably had a role too as a secretary of defence.
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