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Thread: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

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    AqD's Avatar (~‾▿‾)~
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    Icon5 Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    The most obvious example would be nearly universal objection against others' suicide, and many against abortion, and some are even converted to certain religions at birth today or have undemocratic rules, traditions and responsibilities forced onto them.

    The list could go on and on, but how can we respect others' life (almost universally) while ignoring or prioritizing other things over their free wills? Without free will we'd be nothing but some stones or pile of dirt that moves, or like slaves - which most of us are also against.

    So, why isn't there any protest or education against people who're against suicide, or against religion or nationalism teaching to kids, for example? Isn't our free will just as important as life itself, if not more so? And if it is, then anything against our free will should be seen as serious violation like murder, and as of now many governments are committing mass murder (of the minds)?
    Last edited by AqD; October 23, 2019 at 03:21 PM. Reason: rephrase

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    I would argue that you can't respect someones life without respecting their free will, to a certain extent. You can't respect someone's life and, for example, say that that they have no right to freedom of speech, or religion, or autonomy over their own body. But then it becomes a grey area when you mention suicide. It seems oxymoronic to support someone's life and their free will to kill themselves, since by supporting both you'd condemn them to death, and by supporting purely free will you would condemn them to death (albeit by their own hand). At that nexus one would have to choose what path is most logical, the pursuit of life or that of free will (society seems to have agreed that your right to life is more important that your free will to kill yourself? In a purely evolutionary and biological sense the pursuit of survival is clearly more important than that of free will, as survival always carries the implication (no matter how fleeting) of freedom.

    Free will is arbitrary and capricious. It is fleetingly defined and it's exact definitions are debated. It would be presumptuous and against the same free will and rights to life that you mention to vaguely define all violations of free will as equivalent to the paramount and indisputable end of life that death represents.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    A society of whatever nature couldn't survive if there ever was such a thing as free will, why? Because to keep order in any society there must be rules and laws. A man has a will, there is no argument there, but as for being free that has never been in all history. There is only one certainty in life, all life, and that is that all things die and since this is a creational aspect one can look upon that as a start to something better or worse and that my friends is something totally out of our hands.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?
    ...
    Disclaimer:
    I am not defending this, I am only attempting an explanation of this behavior.

    Societies survive on mutual protection and the provision of a sense of belonging, among a few other things.
    Toleration of murder would go against the intention to keep useful members well and active, ergo the evolutionary aversion of murder.
    The sense of belonging presupposes relative conformity, so societies have evolved to attempt to enforce conformity to those who have been the recipients of the benefits of society.

    For example, one of those benefits is the mitigation of uncertainty about the future and the correspondent reduction of anxiety.
    This cannot be made possible if everyone acts independently of the needs and expectations of society.
    In other words, we are allowed to have free will but we will not always be unopposed when it comes to acting it out.

    It seems to me that we all tend to take the benefits of civilization for granted while we are too quick to grunt at the price of it (a few tyrannical elements).

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    I admit this is going out on a limb, but there might be something to it: The phenomenon you describe might be a remnant from times when all (official) power was assumed to come from God. If all power comes from god, then those exerting it will feel uninclined to accomodate other beliefs. We might think of absolute monarchs here, but I think it's worth asking whether many voters in democratic systems are not still exerting their little slice of power in this manner.

    So, what is the alternative? I think the 'enlightened' view is that power comes from 'the people' and that as there is no single eternal, divine, anchor for good government we limit ourselves to a social contract. Specifically, peolpe might think something like murder is 'evil', but that is not in itself a grounds for a state to make it illegal. That illegality is instead the outcome of a social contract. Nobody wants to be, murdered, assaulted, stolen from etc., hence we promise eachother than if any of us is the victim, we will stand by their side and hunt down the perpetrator.

    With no external 'anchor of truth' a liberal democracy holds that it strives for the greatest freedom for the greatest number. This involves weighting one person's interests against another whenever a conflict arises. The old an new ways are very similar in some cases like murder and theft: things that used to be considered 'sinful' and are now guarded against through a social contract. In other cases (the ones the OP mentions) they are diverging sharply. Sodomy might have been 'sinful', but in terms of the social contract and the weighting of interests, the only damage is an offense against certain sensibilities. Yet, some people exert their little slice of democratic power well outside of the scope of the social contract, acting like tiny gods sitting in judgement of others instead.

    Democracy, again, is not an end in itself, it's a procedure. It can yield results at odds with what it is intended for. Obvious example is 'democratically abolishing democracy', but really any instance where people act like little gods is abuse of the system. Sensibilities should never guide your vote. Every decision made should start with asking 'do I/we have grounds to interfere with someone's freedom' and if those grounds are "I do not want to be offended" then that's a very weak basis for legislation.

    Perhaps controversially, but IMHO suicide/euthanasia and abortion can only really be made subject to the social contract in terms of 'offended sensibilities", because there are no injured parties involved that can conceivably be considered parties in a social contract. Hence 3rd parties (as personified by the state) really have no business interfering.

    And no, it's not water-tight and I look forward to this being challenged. I am sure there are many awkward edge cases that would follow from driving these ideas to their logical conclusion.
    Last edited by Muizer; October 31, 2019 at 08:21 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    paleologos,

    " ergo the evolutionary aversion of murder," is a bit of a misdemeanor considering that man has murdered more than anything else on the planet. Since the beginning of time he has killed animals, birds and fish for sheer pleasure as well as other humans. The latest notion is that he is killing the planet in what was once considered evolutionary advancement. Friends the answer is much deeper than that and it is not evolutionary.

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Yes basics, a side effect of our evolution has been our ability to reason ourselves (and others) out of our instinctive sense of guilt and into actions/behaviour we instinctively feel is wrong". Religion is a very powerful tool in that regard.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Isn't our free will just as important as life itself, if not more so?
    Is "free will" actually existed? How do you know the urge to commit suicide is not genetic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Yes basics, a side effect of our evolution has been our ability to reason ourselves (and others) out of our instinctive sense of guilt and into actions/behaviour we instinctively feel is wrong". Religion is a very powerful tool in that regard.
    Muizer,

    Our problem is that we have never been able to reason away the guilt as you put it because our nature bends towards wrong rather than right. We lie and steal everyday by nature and few if any ever think about it to feel any sense of guilt. If the legal systems in any country actually punished lawbreakers the lines of accused could never be handled for the crush. Indeed the guilty would be accusing the guilty. That's how deep the problem is and religion only adds to it.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Muizer,

    Our problem is that we have never been able to reason away the guilt as you put it because our nature bends towards wrong rather than right. We lie and steal everyday by nature and few if any ever think about it to feel any sense of guilt. If the legal systems in any country actually punished lawbreakers the lines of accused could never be handled for the crush. Indeed the guilty would be accusing the guilty. That's how deep the problem is and religion only adds to it.
    But first of all, why lie and steal is "wrong" from the view point of NATURE?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    But first of all, why lie and steal is "wrong" from the view point of NATURE?
    hellheaven1987,

    Because in the beginning it was never meant to be that way right across the board. If you are a Darwinist then anything goes but as I am not I can't accept that it is OK to do anything one wants as evolutionary free will would allow and must allow.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    But first of all, why lie and steal is "wrong" from the view point of NATURE?
    Even from the most Darwinist point of view, animals kill others because they are hungry and would die otherwise, out of need, not because they have pleasure in indulging themselves.

    So even in Nature the killing is kept to the minimum possible given the current species that exist.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    fkizz,

    The strange thing is about Nature that even it can deceive us. The most popular pets are cats and dogs and lil ole pussy kills for fun and so would my Siberian Husky were he free. It's in their nature. Man is another example if we look back not so many years ago. Around 60 million Buffalo used to roam the plains of America yet today there are but a few thousand saved by a guy from Scotland who settled there. People crowded onto trains for the pleasure of shooting them from their seats on board and the carcasses were left to rot on the ground in many cases. Today TV adverts tell us that an elephant is killed every 26 minutes for food, no, for profit. I mean how disgusting is that? In today's news a guy in Scotland is on trial for raping a 2 year old baby, how many others might he have done the same to if he were free willed to do so?

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Even from the most Darwinist point of view, animals kill others because they are hungry and would die otherwise, out of need, not because they have pleasure in indulging themselves.

    So even in Nature the killing is kept to the minimum possible given the current species that exist.
    Which is not true, because there were quite a number of observations that different species killed for pleasure (not just primates). The real reasons why there is no mass killing in NATURE is because hunting is an activity that requires heavy energy investment, which any sane being would rather prefer not to spend more than necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I mean how disgusting is that? In today's news a guy in Scotland is on trial for raping a 2 year old baby, how many others might he have done the same to if he were free willed to do so?
    But can people choose to be pedophilia by free will?
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; November 07, 2019 at 10:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Everyone has free will, but choose not to rape 2 year old kids because they fear the repercussions.

    Not having free will means not being able to choose. Being programmed.

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    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    hellheaven1987,

    At the fall of man all nature was changed, the will to do wrong overcoming all else. We became liars, stealers, killers and perverts in the grip of sin and its father, Diablos. So, man has a will but it was never free as Adam had rules to obey before his fall and rules since. As sex is one of the most powerful instincts in mankind that becomes evident early on in life and God's word describes it as lust in the heart. Youngsters explore these things in games like doctors and nurses knowing that if their parents found out they would be in trouble. The problem is that some because of their lusts have to take things further and further as they grow up. Ever been in the company of men when the subject always turns to women and I can only suppose that women can be just as bad? Why even seduction is only a fine line between consent and rape as seen when men adjudge no to really mean yes. All that said, I cannot understand what makes a man or woman rape a little child.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Every decision made should start with asking 'do I/we have grounds to interfere with someone's freedom' and if those grounds are "I do not want to be offended" then that's a very weak basis for legislation.
    But then what about compulsory education (by government or parents), religion or family values / traditions, or the basic sense of belonging / binding?

    A baby is blank. Bringing ideas itself is already against its free will, and many ideas are useless or negative a pure utilitarian view - e.g. in a religious society being converted at birth and becoming actually faithful puts you at disadvantage against those who pretend and use it to their own benefits. Or to continue traditions (e.g. being Jewish in medieval Europe) Or patriotism and following laws because of that - many joined WW2 not out of their free will and they ended up dead or life long troubles.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    A society of whatever nature couldn't survive if there ever was such a thing as free will, why? Because to keep order in any society there must be rules and laws. A man has a will, there is no argument there, but as for being free that has never been in all history. There is only one certainty in life, all life, and that is that all things die and since this is a creational aspect one can look upon that as a start to something better or worse and that my friends is something totally out of our hands.
    Why does a society need to survive? Is it worth, if we're not free?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Is "free will" actually existed? How do you know the urge to commit suicide is not genetic?
    Surely all our thoughts can be traced back to an accumulated result of genetics, environment and daily encounters. But it'd be very depressive to think that way.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    AqD,

    Societies only survive because of rules and laws which are supposed to protect everyone from the weakest to the strongest why? Because in our fallen condition we find many if not all under certain conditions who are prepared to do hideous things to their fellow beings. Take away the rules and laws and chaos would ensure. The foundation of life, the family would collapse as would tribes, communities and even nations as we know them. To a certain extent this is already happening as the cry for more freedom is heard across the world.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    You speak as if the rules were first, and then the societies, when it's the other way around.
    There will always be rules, even as we get more freedom.
    Thank the Sun that people like you are in minority, otherwise women would still be objects, to be traded among men.
    Children getting beaten by parents, because that's how education is supposed to be in a true traditional Christian family.
    People with different sexual preferences than yours getting punished, banished or killed.
    I wonder what Jesus would think of all this.
    Probably nothing since he never existed.
    Last edited by Bethrezen; November 11, 2019 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Why do we respect people's lives but not their free wills?

    Bethrezen,

    May I suggest that nothing would exist if certain Laws were not in place so life of any sort follows them. Therefore free-will does not exist as some believe. Man has a will there's no doubt about that and whether one is a believer or not his will is in a pretty fallen state as some of the things you point out says proves it. In Christianity God laid down the principle upon which we should live, Jesus the head, then man and then woman in that order. Each has certain roles to play, Jesus saving and protecting His bride the church, man honouring Him and protecting his bride, his wife. The wife has probably got the highest honour in that she was chosen to bear children, to be the voice in the family that she has brought into the world by nurturing and teaching them as they grow. Are wives to be beaten, no? Are children to be beaten, no? Discipline yes is part and parcel of Christianity but not as you suggest, rather always looking to Jesus Christ as is written for the answer. The only real anger we find from Jesus was when He drove the money lenders and shop keepers out of the Temple and there is no writing that He actually beat anyone up in doing so.

    Jesus still exists my friend, why? Because He is our God and Creator but I think that deep down you already know that. The problems that you highlight are because man has come to worship himself, the created, before the Creator, and this is where your problems and the world's problems begin. If you think as it appears you think that you are not a sinner then you kid yourself on and the more you do that the more you believe it. So, in convincing yourself of your own authority the ultimate is that Jesus Christ never existed when all the evidence is to the opposite. You therefore don't have to thank the sun that I am in the minority as that was down to God and His grace that revealed Jesus to me, put me on my knees and converted me after some forty years of not knowing Him or wanting to. His church was never meant to be huge in any generation for in His words few ever get in but when the final calculations are made at the judgement His church numbers cannot be counted by any with Him. On that day even you will have bent the knee to confess that Jesus Christ is not only Lord but your Lord, your God and your Creator. By then it will be too late for the many.

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