Is there anything left of The Left?

[Infidel144]

So only a few coutries in the world are socialist, none of them european? Thanks for the lesson.

Can you name any Europeon socialist countries? If not that probably answers your question...

[Muizer]

Ok. So by that reasoning Communist Russia, China, Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Cuba and Vietnam etc. were all not socialist because they also had elements of nationalism, racism, fascism, misogyny.

You know where this is going wrong? By conflating intent and outcome. I would not hesitate to agree that there are many similarities between authoritarian socialist regimes and fascist regimes, including Nazi Germany. The question here is not that. It is about a political political philosophies. About intent. If a libertarian thinks that's immaterial because regardless of intent, it's all about the means then I cannot help that, but that does not mean they are right claim the two are the same. For instance, in many modern communist regimes, you will see a, some would say over the top, emphasis on 'equality' not rarely resulting in e.g. females being exalted for excelling in typically male dominated roles. That is quite remote from the imagery of the Nazi's who insisted women had to fullfil their 'natural' roles of being stay at home moms of large families of blue eyed blond kids. The Nazi regime was ideologically bound to a philosophy of racial and cultural superiority. For Stalinist Russia embracing nationalism was a war time survival strategy. I can see a convergence in practice in the authoritarian regimes, but it's just incorrect to infer from that that they must have the same ideology behind them.
Why does that matter? perhaps it does not. Perhaps the biggest mistake the article makes is saying that "right of center people are told they own the Nazi's". IMHO that's the product of a false left-right dichotomy. Moderate leftists do not normally attribute a tendency to nazism to the moderate right, any more than the moderate right attributes a tendency towards communism to the moderate left. Whenever you see anyone doing such things you know you're dealing with a form of polarizing rhetoric. As I've said before, only people who don't even see the relevance of intent but who only see statism vs 'freedom' as relevant political dimension could honestly make such a point. And they'd be still dead wrong.

[Infidel144]

For instance, in many modern communist regimes, you will see a, some would say over the top, emphasis on 'equality' not rarely resulting in e.g. females being exalted for excelling in typically male dominated roles.

Which are the "modern Communist regimes"?

[Heathen Hammer]

You know where this is going wrong? By conflating intent and outcome. I would not hesitate to agree that there are many similarities between authoritarian socialist regimes and fascist regimes, including Nazi Germany. The question here is not that. It is about a political political philosophies. About intent.

The difference between political philosophy of Third Reich or Lenin's USSR was rather semantic. Both were socialist ideologies aiming at world domination.

[TheLeft]

The difference between political philosophy of Third Reich or Lenin's USSR was rather semantic. Both were socialist ideologies aiming at world domination.

*rolls eyes*

Sure they were. That's why you have been utterly unable to find any evidence from any reputable historians to back your opinion beside Random YouTube Loonies.

Remember just because you say something, doesn't make it so.

[Ludicus]

Can you name any Europeon socialist countries?

Communist countries? nope, not at all.With that said, in Europe we have,
1) Socialist International - Progressive politics For a fairer world
2)Progressive Alliance | A Progressive Network for the 21st Century
3)PES | Socialists & Democrats - brings together the Socialist, Social Democratic, Labour and Democratic Parties from all over the European Union and Norway. Together they fight for a better and more progressive Europe.

[Aexodus]

Uh I mean sure there are Socialist parties, but socialist countries?

[Ludicus]

Uh I mean sure there are Socialist parties, but socialist countries?

What do you mean, Communist, totalitarian countries? no. There are Socialist parties as the ruling party or as a member of a governing coalition.Most of these parties are members of the International Socialist. Just a few hours ago Spain's governing Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE) and left-wing Unidas Podemos (UP) have reached a coalition agreement in a bid to form government.
Portuguese Socialists prepare more four years of a very successful government. Portugal's socialist government - Europe for the Many
The government is especially notable for its parliamentary majority, but dependent on the external support of both the Left Bloc and the Communists. Making Portugal's Break With Austerity Real - Jacobin

For many on the European center-left, Portugal stands as proof that it is possible to break out of austerity without any need for a “populist” offensive against Brussels. For the Guardian, Portugal today stands as “Europe’s beacon of social democracy”; for the New Stateman, it is “Europe’s socialist success story.” Since 2015 the Socialist-led government has been acclaimed for its role in escaping the sovereign debt crisis, returning Portugal to growth even while taking poverty-reduction measures.The government is especially notable for its parliamentary majority, dependent on the external support of both the Left Bloc and the Communists. Yet if Portuguese right-wingers deem Costa “in hock to the extreme left,” his government can also be seen as a rejuvenation of mainstream social democracy. Where other austerity-hit countries have seen a rise of Eurosceptic or otherwise populist forces, polls for Sunday’s vote suggest a strengthening of the Socialists’ position, outstripping even their success in the 2015 contest

For us, Bernie Sanders is a social democrat.Corbyn is a social democrat. There you go. Generally speaking a democratic socialist is someone who believes that the government should provide a range of basic services to the public for free - or at a significant discount- such as health care and education, etc. In the US, for example, Bernie Sanders, recently released an expansive affordable-housing agenda. Here, we have a homelessness strategy for the period 2017-2023, aiming to remove all all homeless people from the streets by 2023.The idea, according to the constitution, is to help all of our citizens have an equal chance of success. But we dont believe that the government should control all aspects of the public life, that's communism.
And if you are not happy, use the ballot box and change the government.As simple as that.

[Infidel144]

Communist countries? nope, not at all.With that said, in Europe we have,
1) Socialist International - Progressive politics For a fairer world
2)Progressive Alliance | A Progressive Network for the 21st Century
3)PES | Socialists & Democrats - brings together the Socialist, Social Democratic, Labour and Democratic Parties from all over the European Union and Norway. Together they fight for a better and more progressive Europe.

So, no socialist countries.

[Ludicus]

Hehe. So, no communist countries.
-----
of the european economy - Foundation for European Progressive

Some key points,

The case of Portugal proved that growth, not austerity, is the best way forward.
We must always remember that the economy is not an end in itself but a means to an end.
Accordingly, progressives see an important role for government in managing and promoting public and private investment, including in education, technology, and infrastructure.
Since markets do not exist in a vacuum, they must be tempered, regulated, and structured by rules.
Changes in the power of corporations relative to workers have played an important role in the increase in inequality.
Use banking supervision and regulation creatively to encourage growth and stability, thus enhancing productive investments and discouraging risky speculation.
Large numbers of young people are unable to find secure or rewarding work in accordance with their skills and aspirations.
The effort should start with a commitment to attaining full employment throughout Europe, one that is based on new macroeconomic strategies. The problem in today’s world is unemployment, not inflation.

And again, the answer to the question " Is there anything left of The Left?" is an emphatic yes.

[Heathen Hammer]

Communism is just what socialism turns into as soon as socialists have the political power to do what they want.

*rolls eyes*

Sure they were. That's why you have been utterly unable to find any evidence from any reputable historians to back your opinion beside Random YouTube Loonies.

Remember just because you say something, doesn't make it so.

Please demonstrate us a list of reputable historians that state that Lenin wasn't a socialist, despite NEP. I dare you, a double-dare you my dear friend.

[Ludicus]

Communism is just what socialism turns into as soon as socialists have the political power to do what they want.

As false as saying that capitalism inevitably leads to neoliberal fascism.
----
If I may quote you, "West needs an alternative to both socialism and capitalism", I wonder what is this supposed to mean...as Rowling's put it, the world isn't split into good people (illiberal/Christian religious autocracies) and the Death Eaters of Lord Voldemort (Capitalism and Socialism).
------
Communists are not happy with Bernie, The nationalist “socialism” of Bernie Sanders

Karl Marx, the founder of scientific socialism, proclaimed long ago that the working man has no country. But Bernie Sanders takes the opposite stance. He defends the national interests of US imperialism.
In the 2020 campaign, Sanders’ espousal of economic nationalism is part of a systematic effort on his part to demonstrate to the ruling class that he is a reliable instrument for its imperialist and neocolonialist foreign policy,
Sanders’ nationalism and his support for the foreign policy of the American ruling class expose the fraudulent character of his supposed “socialism.” It is impossible to oppose the “billionaire class” at home while supporting its policy abroad

To sum up,
According to the Communists, Sanders is an American imperialist.
According to the Liberal Right, Sanders is communist.
The fanatical religious/ xenophobic/ illiberal right is a different beast. They don't give a damn about democracy. For example Orban's Hungary, Russia, Turkey and China are useful models for illiberal democracies. They dont give a damn about democracy. Here, Viktor Orban's illiberal world | Financial Times

citing China, Russia, Turkey as potential role models

Trump agrees, obviously.
--
Edit- Trump said " I'm a big fan of Erdogan", just a few moments ago.

[TheLeft]

Please demonstrate us a list of reputable historians that state that Lenin wasn't a socialist, despite NEP. I dare you, a double-dare you my dear friend.

Except that wasn't the point I was making. Reading comprehension really isn't your strong point is it? You see something, then only seem to take in and understand the bits that you want to.

I was referring to your silly suggestion that the Nazis were socialists. A position that no reputable historian will argue. I've not even mentioned Lenin once.

[Ludicus]

A very interesting article, A European Socialist Has Some Advice for Bernie Sanders - VICE
Bastiaan van Apeldoorn is a senator for the Dutch Socialist Party and a professor of global political economy at the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam.

... and also says European leftists could learn from Sanders.

Sanders’s mere use of the "socialist" label is radical in the U.S. context, especially since even left-wing Democrats have avoided it since the days of Franklin Roosevelt.
Since then, "socialist" has become a pejorative, one that was hurled at the decidedly non-socialist Barack Obama.
Overcoming this prejudice will be no easy task for Sanders, says Wolff, and if he wants to do so, he will need to tap into people’s intuitive understanding of the injustices of the capitalist status quo. He advises Bernie to continue to emphasize that he is the "anti-capitalist" in the race.

The overwhelming truth of it is, Americans aren’t socialists yet," said Wolff. "They just aren’t. But, they are becoming anti-capitalists. They realize the system isn’t working. They feel it. They feel it because their job sucks and they’re getting paid peanuts.
They feel it because they can’t afford their bills every month. They feel it because they have a university degree and no opportunities.
My advice to Bernie then is this: Bernie, you are the anti-capitalist. You are the real alternative. That’s what you need to emphasize. Use socialism as shorthand for that.

But, he cautioned against going too far in the direction of the "anti-capitalist" narrative. The messaging needs to be equal parts positive and negative.

In other words, in order to make the U.S. more like a European-style nation with a strong social safety net, Sanders will need to make America's politics more like Europe's, where both moderate and radical socialist parties have been part of the mainstream for decades. For example, 154 members of European Union Parliament from 26 countries belong to the Party of European Socialists, and governments like Portugal's are ruled by a coalition of socialists, communists, and Greens. (1,2)

(1)Add Spain to the list.Spain has now a coalition government with Podemos. Socialists and Podemos agree on first ever coalition government for Spain, with media reports announcing Iglesias' vice-presidency.
(2) not exactly, there is no formal coalition. The country is ruled by the Socialist Party with the occasional support of the Left Bloc, Greens and communists.

[Heathen Hammer]

Except that wasn't the point I was making. Reading comprehension really isn't your strong point is it? You see something, then only seem to take in and understand the bits that you want to.

I was referring to your silly suggestion that the Nazis were socialists. A position that no reputable historian will argue. I've not even mentioned Lenin once.

Either NSDAP was socialist, or Lenin wasn't a socialist, since economic policies of both Third Reich and Lenin were extremely similar. You can't have both. Now try and come up with a counter-argument without ad hominems and buzzwords.

[TheLeft]

Either NSDAP was socialist, or Lenin wasn't a socialist, since economic policies of both Third Reich and Lenin were extremely similar. You can't have both. Now try and come up with a counter-argument without ad hominems and buzzwords.

*Translation*

I saw a YouTube video the other day and the shouty far-right guy said that because there were some similarities between two totalitarian governments, that must therefore mean that all other facets must be the same... ergo "Teh Nasis were teh ebil socialists!!!!11one"

amirite?

[Heathen Hammer]

*Translation*

I saw a YouTube video the other day and the shouty far-right guy said that because there were some similarities between two totalitarian governments, that must therefore mean that all other facets must be the same... ergo "Teh Nasis were teh ebil socialists!!!!11one"

amirite?

I don't see how this, um, incoherent bundle of words, has any bearing to what we are talking about here. Now try again:

Either NSDAP was socialist, or Lenin wasn't a socialist, since economic policies of both Third Reich and Lenin were extremely similar. You can't have both. Now try and come up with a counter-argument without ad hominems and buzzwords.

[TheLeft]

I don't see how this, um, incoherent bundle of words, has any bearing to what we are talking about here. Now try again:

Incoherent bundle of words? Oh dear, problems with reading again? Maybe try this, it may help...

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...ch-recognition

So in your world, if two different things have a few cosmetic similarities then they're obviously exactly the same? Because that's essentially your argument. Unsourced and unverified by any sources obviously, but that's your argument. An argument that you have slavishly parroted from a far-right YouTube channel. Do yourself a favour, go away and come back with some sources (written by actual historians) to backup your position and then we'll talk.

[Heathen Hammer]

Incoherent bundle of words? Oh dear, problems with reading again? Maybe try this, it may help...

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...ch-recognition

So in your world, if two different things have a few cosmetic similarities then they're obviously exactly the same? Because that's essentially your argument. Unsourced and unverified by any sources obviously, but that's your argument. An argument that you have slavishly parroted from a far-right YouTube channel. Do yourself a favour, go away and come back with some sources (written by actual historians) to backup your position and then we'll talk.

We are talking about two states with almost identical economic policies. We are yet to see any source from you that isn't part of leftist blogosphere that would support your claim that NSDAP wasn't a socialist.
Perhaps you should read up on what socialist is before embarrassing yourself with posts that lack knowledge on subject matter.

[Muizer]

We are talking about two states with almost identical economic policies. We are yet to see any source from you that isn't part of leftist blogosphere that would support your claim that NSDAP wasn't a socialist.

Then again, the burden of proof is not on him, but on you. You're the one arguing for a paradigm shift. I sure hope you realise that. The author of the article in the OP did. The only way he managed to associate Nazis with the left was to redefine left and right. What TheLeft is saying is that you're doing exactly the same: Basically you found an overlap and you're either knowingly trying to shape the meaning of socialism in such a way that it fits, or you are just blind to anything outside of the aforementioned overlap.