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Thread: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    I have little interest in "arguing" with you on whether a choice to end a pregnancy is tantamount to murdering a baby.
    Yeah, because you have no argument.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.


    Should have seen that coming. Very mature.

    There is a thread in the ethos forum if you want to debate the morality of abortion rather than throw around truncated schoolyard responses.
    Last edited by The spartan; October 23, 2019 at 04:38 PM.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    If you believe ceasing to enforce God's will by means of the law is bad, does that mean you're a proponent of theocracy?
    It's not theocratic to prohibit murder, since the purpose of government is to protect the people's rights, regardless of what religion the governor adheres to. Relax, no one's going to establish a state church by criminalizing murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    I don't think I ever quite bought the idea that the majority of opposition do so because they believe it is literally tantamount to baby murder. In the US at least, this belief would entice pro-life proponents to support policies that would reduce abortion rates (outside of just pushing for a blanket ban); but they either couldn't be bothered, or actively oppose such policies.
    I don't know, you'll have to ask them. Everyone has their own reasons for supporting or opposing anything. I only speak for myself.

    I'm not sure what policies you have in mind to reduce abortion, but a good first step would be to actually prohibit abortion. There are programs to prevent at-risk youth from being sucked into a life of crime, but we still prohibit all murder and robbery, since they violate the victims' rights. Likewise, each abortion violates a human being's right to life and must be prohibited, even while we work to remedy the causes of abortion. We don't need to choose one course of action or the other.

  4. #24
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    It's not theocratic to prohibit murder, since the purpose of government is to protect the people's rights, regardless of what religion the governor adheres to.
    Indeed and so it comes down to whether, a foetus has to be regarded a person before the law and what rights should come with it. Assuming we dismiss religious grounds for determining what makes a 'person', what would you suggest in its stead?
    Last edited by Muizer; October 24, 2019 at 12:44 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  5. #25

    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    I don't know, you'll have to ask them. Everyone has their own reasons for supporting or opposing anything. I only speak for myself.

    I'm not sure what policies you have in mind to reduce abortion, but a good first step would be to actually prohibit abortion. There are programs to prevent at-risk youth from being sucked into a life of crime, but we still prohibit all murder and robbery, since they violate the victims' rights. Likewise, each abortion violates a human being's right to life and must be prohibited, even while we work to remedy the causes of abortion. We don't need to choose one course of action or the other.
    I would imagine the goal of pro-lifers, much like the goal of law enforcement in general, is to reduce the harm of something that happens. There are simple means to reduce abortion rates (way more easy to achieve than overturning Roe v Wade, which wouldn't end abortion either), such as sex education and increased availability of birth control, but pro-lifers seem to oppose these measures. They very clearly reduce the rate of accidental pregnancy and demand for abortion, so the fact that the anti-abortion crowd seem to oppose these measures doesn't seem to make much sense.
    Last edited by The spartan; October 27, 2019 at 11:53 AM.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  6. #26
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    There are simple means to reduce abortion rates (way more easy to achieve than overturning Roe v Wade, which wouldn't end abortion either), such as sex education and increased availability of birth control, but pro-lifers seem to oppose these measures. They very clearly reduce the rate of accidental pregnancy and demand for abortion, so the fact that the anti-abortion crowed seem to oppose these measures doesn't seem to make much sense.
    Not only are you wrong about what anti-abortion campaigners believe, it is irrelevant to the discussion around abortion itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  7. #27
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    1 - Show him why he is wrong
    2 - Report the post

  8. #28

    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Not only are you wrong about what anti-abortion campaigners believe,
    Maybe it is different in the UK, but here in the US, anti-abortion opinions are heavily correlated with being against sex education in public school (or push for "abstinence-only education" which is the same thing) and public subsidization of birth control/family planning. *cough cough* Planned Parenthood *cough cough*
    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    it is irrelevant to the discussion around abortion itself.
    To be fair, this thread isn't about the ethics surrounding abortion at all; it's about North Ireland legalizing gay marriage and abortion. If you would rather talk about how abortion plays out on the geo-political stage, I am all for that. That doesn't typically go well for the anti-abortion crowd.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    The embers of the conflict are lightly glowing, it seems that someone had a bright idea of throwing some gasoline on them.

  10. #30
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Same-sex marriage and abortion to be made legal in Northern Ireland.

    In a cynical way, this could help bring Stormont back into operation, at the cost of thousands of lives of course.

    Gay marriage and I think abortion are two of the demands that Sinn Fein have added to their terms for the restoration of the assembly after they collapsed it in 2017 after McGuinness resigned.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8893096.html
    Sinn Féin called for Ms Foster to stand aside from her position to allow for an independent inquiry into the scandal, but she refused.

    Having served as Deputy First Minister for ten years, Mr McGuinness then resigned in January 2017 and Sinn Féin announced they would not be replacing him. This stripped Ms Foster of her title as First Minister and collapsed the executive.
    Westminster introducing it takes those issues off the table while keeping the DUPs hands clean. Sinn Fein still want an Irish Language Act which they added to their demands after the fact, and like a petulant child, won’t return to the assembly until they get it.

    This is the party that abstained from all forms of Parliament until 1998 mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

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