Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

[Daruwind]

LOL 'One Country, Two Systems' for Northern Ireland.

Say what you want about Boris, the man knows how to make a play for the win.

Depends. It looks like he will be force tomorrow to ask for extension regardless of the vote result. Even if his deal is accepted. All thanks to his unpredictability. Plus in long term, a few months ago people were laughting at prospect of unification of Ireland. Well if this deal passes we might see not just independent Scotland but unified Ireland as well down the line as well. And election are still ahead and all other negotiations. This is merely start and we were there as well with May´s deal already...

[Muizer]

Be that as it may (or as it may seem to each person), the EU IS a heavily centralised political entity. Furthermore, it's an entity that does not look to favorably upon referenda. These are undeniable facts. Once we agree upon them, we can discuss further whether said term is a gross exaggeration or not. I would say that it is somewhat of an exaggeration, since we don't have concentration camps and such (yet), or that we make whole countries into concentration camps here in Europe, (ie Greece and Italy, regarding "asylum seekers"), yet nothing like the gulags.

It is only natural to be skeptical when it comes to joining or remaining in such entities where the will of the people doesn't matter much, and key decisions are taken by bureaucrats who are not accountable to voters. (hence the Brexit decision).

The Bremainer group seems to me to consist largely of people who are not much interested in actually having a say in state decisions.
I'd say that they mostly won't even be bothered to vote in state elections.

Hmm, in my country all decisions arise through compromise. All our governments require coalitions. There are no outright 'winners' and 'losers'. IMHO it's for the better. Perhaps that is why I do not mind that the most important decisions regarding the EU are the result of endless negotiations between member states at government level. That is, of course, also the reason why referenda on the outcomes of such laboreous negotiations don't really work. They're always package deals with a lot of give and take from all sides, so for a member state to say 'meh, I don't think so' at the last hurdle of course is not going to make the EU throw the whole thing into the bin. You're obviously going to get some rehashed version of it back or perhaps some 'political declaration' included: your democratically elected government went along with it after all. How can you negotiate when governments cannot be assumed to have a domestic mandate (well, like Brexit I suppose, but think of 27 countries all going back and forth to 'the people' on every decision). No, if you want to have different politics in Europe, vote for a domestic government that will fight for it and perhaps slooooowly it will change course.....like an oil tanker.

Anything that challenges the General Party Line is a "conspiracy theory" these days. At least according to mainstream journos and corrupt pro-EU politicians. Having said that, terms like EUSSR are oddly accurate in regards to depicting ongoing tendencies and explain why leaving EU, as well as its eventual dissolution, is not going to be a bad thing.

Fine if you have more faith in the credentials of one professional than another, but whether they're believable is still about their credentials, not about the views they expound. Forgive me, but your evaluation of journalists or politicians does not lend any credibility to their knowledge and professionalism.

[Bob69Joe]

Video within parliament of the Queen's opening speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA2SJoOgRSQ


Hansard, read the Queen's speech: https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/.../Queen’SSpeech


Keep track of parliament all week and into the next from this webpage: https://www.parliament.uk/business/n...queens-speech/


This should be quaint enough to discover the whats going on in British parliament, unless anyone else can chime in on just what government does these days in a simpler form. Lots of reading over the past week's parliament. The first thing to be said from the Queen's Speech is this,

“My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, my Government’s priority has always been to secure the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union on 31 October. My Government intends to work towards a new partnership with the European Union, based on free trade and friendly co-operation.


My Ministers will work to implement new regimes for fisheries, agriculture and trade, seizing the opportunities that arise from leaving the European Union. An immigration Bill, ending free movement, will lay the foundation for a fair, modern and global immigration system."

therefore, be glad that all the signs are finally pointing to a conclusion of these long years toward a separation of the United Kingdom from the apparatus that used to be only about free trade with Europe. Now what that means is not isolation, obviously, but that the EU will not be dictating how Britain leaves if no deal is signed, that Britain will be leaving the EU not jointly with a bunch of further measures and regulations. The parliament has had long enough to come up with a hundred solutions to trade, migration, defence, and whatever else a busy nation needs, but now the EU may likely not be dictating how Britain comes up with these. Yes, the EU has differing opinions on that, but that can be left to the other topic. The Queen has insisted October 31st, so bets are on no deal. Keep up with it via these links.

[JP226]

Weird how a queen has a final say so.

[Exarch]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Suck it up, Brits; you're gonna be Euro property forever; mama Merkel aint never gonna let you go, you're gonne be chained to her whip forever. Get used to it.

Just give up and crawl back to brussels and beg forgiveness, they'll take you back. Get it done and over with, i have a holiday planned for the UK next year and i plan on doing amsterdam as well.

[95thrifleman]

Weird how a queen has a final say so.

Weird how some countries don't have a monarchy

[Muizer]

i have a holiday planned for the UK next year and i plan on doing amsterdam as well.

Ah, well as an inhabitant of that city, let me advise you that a visit to the red light district, however thorough and comprehensive, does not amount to 'doing amsterdam'

[Sir Adrian]

Farage is openly taking money from Moscow and has done irreversible damage to his country.

[95thrifleman]

Boris knows the deal won't pass. It's all electioneering

[TheLeft]

It was embarrassing to the guy who tweeted it, and to all the "sobbing" people who posted that they were "moved" by said tweet. I mean, seriously, who is moved to tears at the sight of a farming tractor ploughing?

It impresses me, though to see that you (obviously) support the Left, and are a Bremainer. Isn't the EU supposed to be the pinnacle of capitalism or something like that?

Oh dear. Once again we have the embarrassingly illiterate view that just because you are a lefty, you must be a Leninist or something. Does this therefore mean that because you're a right winger, you're a Nazi? Or does that strange dichotomy only work one way?

The reason why I'm a remainer is actually pretty simple. Brexit means being poorer (every single economic forecast predicts that) and having less rights (no longer able to work or travel freely in the EU). I'd have thought that a right winger would appreciate that view...

[Daruwind]

So Bojo lost amendment vote and has up to 11 PM to write to EU asking for extension else he is in nice law problems as on Monday Scottish Court is continuing session. Bojo promised to be good boy and ask EU if he loses the vote... And on top of that Bercow said he will send the letter if judge or house say so..

[mongrel]

Oh dear. Once again we have the embarrassingly illiterate view that just because you are a lefty, you must be a Leninist or something. Does this therefore mean that because you're a right winger, you're a Nazi? Or does that strange dichotomy only work one way?

The reason why I'm a remainer is actually pretty simple. Brexit means being poorer (every single economic forecast predicts that) and having less rights (no longer able to work or travel freely in the EU). I'd have thought that a right winger would appreciate that view...

Indeed. There is far too much by way of political illiteracy on the net. There are Brexit advatanges for those with a large amount of capital, fortunes have been made already, and vulture capitalists who could take advantage of the inevitable mergers,insolvenciess and take overs. As for post-Brexit for the ordinary person, the most immediate effect would be the loss of existing terms of employment and wages if your firm is bought out by another , if private sector, or privatised (TUPE transfer). I can't imagine any middling working class person with a job wanting Brexit if they were actually sat down and told this. If a firm taking over your company wants to cut your wages by 20% and increase your hours , they won't care if you are a righty or lefty, you are just an asset.

The margin of today's vote was comfortable, Boris is unable to pass wind, let alone legislation. Made the same mistake as May, by not meeting Corbyn half way, but worse, there is no way the DUP will trust him in future after presenting Ulster to Eire as a sacrifice to hard Brexit. Boris has done more for the Fenian cause than Wolf Tone and Eamon De Velera. Now the extension, Mr Speaker may need to find a spade for that ditch.

[Ludicus]

Apparently, Boris lied today, "I will not negotiate a delay with the EU, and neither does the law compel me to do so"
Just a few moments ago, Donald Tusk on Twitter,

Waiting for the letter. I just talked to PM @BorisJohnson about the situation after the vote in the House of Commons.

[Daruwind]

I think his words about not sending letters are just that, pose for media. To look like resistance to opposition and get political points into election...

[caratacus]

Farage is openly taking money from Moscow and has done irreversible damage to his country.

You have a source for that then? because it is as legitimate as saying Putin put Donald Trump in the White House. Without Nigel Farage there would be no voice for the British public to express their misgivings about the EU. We have a parliament which has been ignoring their views for decades and continues to do so, as seen today in Westminster. It is nothing to do with Russia mate.

[Muizer]

Pff, well apparently the letter to request another extension has been sent, though not signed by Boris. What he did sign is an accompanying letter saying he believes an extension would be a mistake.

It seems UK politics seems absolutely determined not to miss out on any opportunity for drama!

I wonder though. This puts the EU in a sticky position, as it now is essentially forced into making a choice for the government or for parliament. Which response would not amount to getting involved in UK's domestic affairs? Something the EU has made all efforts to avoid so far. If I'd had to bet, my guess would be the EU wil try to find middle ground by granting a very short extension in order to 'give the UK time to pass the required legislation in an orderly fashion' or something along those lines.

[Daruwind]

On other hand, Bojo has no majority, no election behind him, he lost all votes so far and basically if we will not care about his direct lying, how often he says one thing one day when next day it is something else...my point is, any of his words so far are valueless.

Extension to January, why not? If UK manages to solve things before, they can leave, if not, there is some time.

[caratacus]

Pff, well apparently the letter to request another extension has been sent, though not signed by Boris. What he did sign is an accompanying letter saying he believes an extension would be a mistake.

It seems UK politics seems absolutely determined not to miss out on any opportunity for drama!

I wonder though. This puts the EU in a sticky position, as it now is essentially forced into making a choice for the government or for parliament. Which response would not amount to getting involved in UK's domestic affairs? Something the EU has made all efforts to avoid so far. If I'd had to bet, my guess would be the EU wil try to find middle ground by granting a very short extension in order to 'give the UK time to pass the required legislation in an orderly fashion' or something along those lines.

The EU should only grant an extension on the basis of the UK holding an election. It is quite clear that this parliament wil not pass any form of Brexit deal and will not dissolve itself to hod a GE. Ironically given the main reason for Brexit, the UK needs the EU to administer democracy.

[mongrel]

An extension to January would be nice . When the EU anti tax avoidance legislation kicks in, perhaps voters might actually see the real reason for unnecessary haste some politicians have for delivering this undeliverable project.

You have a source for that then?

To be fair Leave.EU had close links with Russia..................

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...sia-connection

[Muizer]

@Caratacus You think so? It actually seemed to me the Letwin vote showed the deal could be really close to passing. Some of those voting for an extension even said they would vote for the deal provided the necessary legislation was passed first. They just do not trust the government/ERG will not seize on some procedural trickery to crash out with no deal. Looks like Boris only needs a handful more and with no extension or a very short one it will be deal vs no deal. The opposition will have to come around if further extensions are off the table.