Sindar cavalry - Useless beyond measure

[benczeb90]

They are slow, have no charge, are moderate at best in melee, and they are dropping as dry leaves when shot at by missile cavalry, even after being maxed out in the Noldorin Armourer in Mithlond. A fresh unit just melted away when trying to chase down two Greyflood Rider units (javelin cavalry).
They have too high upkeep and look too good to be this useless. They are barely good enough to chase down routed enemies that offer no resistance. The elves should at least be moderate in their basic units, as the Teleri Guards and the Teleri Marines are. The Teleri archers are good enough as well to include in my armies although they never go into the hundreds in kills in battles against even large armies of poor opposition.
The sorry exception is the Sindar cavalry who would be better off fighting in the front line as infantry than to be of any cavalry-like use.
The weird thing is that their Defence skill is a lot lower than that of the basic Teleri archers. This is certainly not what a "scale down" should look like. This is surely is an overlook. So the Defence skill and the charge should be upped for V4.
Awesome game though, this is just a minor observation.

[c.ryo]

Never had any issues with them. Learn to use cavalry properly.

[benczeb90]

Yeah but before I go back to my hole... You can't attack missile cavalry, only pick fights with melee cavalry or infantry. Killing starts a few seconds after they crashed into the enemy. Even if it's the enemy's back. No charge whatsoever. When they fight in a standstill, they are good though. This is too much scale down in my opinion. Any cavalry unit must have enough charge and definitely more charge than infantry.
Teleri Bowmen: 4
Sindar Cavalry: 5 (wow, more charge than the basic bowmen)
Teleri Guards: 6 (basic swordsmen)
I think this is unnatural. Even ponys should have more charge than infantry.

[benczeb90]

Nature and physics says If you're heavy but slow (like a phalanx), your impact will be low thus low charge is natural.
If you're fast but light (like archers or javelinmen), your impact will be low thus low charge is natural.
But if you're both heavier and faster, your impact will be greater, thus charge is needed to reflect this.
But probably i need to learn how to use cavalry properly.

[LuckyPistol]

There is no such thing as useless cavalry. The Sindar Cavalry in particular are meant for attacking your opponents ranged units (which are normally lightly armored) and flanking light infantry. Are you charging them straight on or are you having them travel across the map (out of range) and then attacking once the enemy ranged units have found a target?

All cavalry requires micromanagement; even the tanks like Swan Knights and Nazgul need to be kept a close eye on after entering melee combat. Light cavalry needs greater micromanagement than your typical "hammer/anvil" cavalry due to their low armor as well as their faster movement. They are wonderful for mopping up routing units (especially as your main opponents will be orcs with their high unit count), and I've used these kinds of units to capture town centers in a siege battle.

If you're playing as elves, combat missile cavalry with your own foot archers; much more effective than playing chase with your own cavalry.

[benczeb90]

There is no such thing as useless cavalry.

That is probably a correct statement. Still, charge needs to be upped as a horse is like a tank from an infantry perspective. Especially from a ranged infantry perspective. Yet I'm not supposed to make them rout via cavalry charge right....I'm not impressed. Found the unit in the export_descr_unit.txt. Gonna make the necessary changes for my next campaign.

If you're playing as elves, combat missile cavalry with your own foot archers; much more effective than playing chase with your own cavalry.

Now that is for sure. Yet, barbaric light missile units are not supposed to endure a cavalry charge from the back and stand their ground against it. Or are they .. eh.

[benczeb90]

With a few more hours of 'practice' I'm starting to use the unit better, earning better results. Still, ridding cavalry from the very shock effect it naturally has and always had, cannot be the best solution. Does the AI know how to use it like I needed to learn how not to use it? AI uses cavalry as a shock unit, it charges then retreats then charges again, and it assumes the unit to have enough charge to do it. What a scale down.

Yet I feel the title of the thread is not entirely deserved. Although it is still good for grabbing attention.
And ... I must say this submod is still excellent. I'd give it a 9/10.

[Steward Denethor II]

Javelin cavalry are a hard counter to medium cavalry. I'm not surprised at all that 2 units of Greyflood riders destroyed them. Also as a feature Elves are extremely expensive, High elves in particular.

There is no such thing as useless cavalry. The Sindar Cavalry in particular are meant for attacking your opponents ranged units (which are normally lightly armored) and flanking light infantry.

They are also good to engage lancer units, they can destroy lighter lancers and stop heavier lancers from charging and destroying infantry.

Fighting against them as Dunland awhile ago they seemed pretty tough to me and when used at the right pressure points they can ruin your day and fight in melee although enough spears and javelins in reserve counter them handily. Usually I prefer lancers but they can still be good and are very tough for such an early unit.

With a few more hours of 'practice' I'm starting to use the unit better, earning better results. Still, ridding cavalry from the very shock effect it naturally has and always had, cannot be the best solution. Does the AI know how to use it like I needed to learn how not to use it? AI uses cavalry as a shock unit, it charges then retreats then charges again, and it assumes the unit to have enough charge to do it. What a scale down.

Yet I feel the title of the thread is not entirely deserved. Although it is still good for grabbing attention.
And ... I must say this submod is still excellent. I'd give it a 9/10.

Unfortunately AI does not understand the difference between charger cavalry and brawler cavalry. Their charge is still quite damaging to militia but lances would be so much more powerful. They are considerably weaker against infantry a lot of times but have better melee stats for the cavalry brawl.

I think that they are going to be cut in the next version anyways, with the Elves being merged, but I could be mistaken. If they are hopefully their model will still be around as an upgrade for the Imladris early lancer unit.

[LuckyPistol]

What units other than the Greyfloods are you experience difficulty with your Sindar Cavalry?

Fighting against them as Dunland awhile ago they seemed pretty tough to me and when used at the right pressure points they can ruin your day and fight in melee although enough spears and javelins in reserve counter them handily. Usually I prefer lancers but they can still be good and are very tough for such an early unit.

Ugh, I've been there. Elves are such a pain to fight as Middlemen. At least Enedwaith has strong ranged units.

[Vifarc]

Maybe a problem is that along the versions, I feel all but the elves have been enhanced, and so now their excellent advantages stand no more their huge drawbacks of cost and slow replenishment.
Some say it's intended to better feel lore, but here it goes against gameplay, the fun. Elves no longer feel exceptional beings to play. They can appear powerfull, but it's now only a local show in battle, I feel (at least for wood elves) they can no longer win war, for being far too expensive and slow compare to other enhanced forces.

[Steward Denethor II]

^ Elves are a declining race in the Third Age so I have no issues with that. Men should have the advantage until the Elves really establish themselves. I remember when I played Massive Overhaul Submod years ago as Lorien. It was not so fun because my troops outclassed the goblins so much that there was no challenge and taking Moria was like swatting a fly, taking Dul Guldur was almost as easy. On the other hand fighting the High Elves as Dunland was absolutely insane, I could not do it at all even as a veteran player. Their basic troops killed even my bodyguards and slaughtered my militia troops even when outnumbered 3 to 1.

[Vifarc]

Maybe, but I feel now the balance is the reverse. Wood-Elves in DaC now are boring. Before, I could whine, but I was pleased lauching a game. Now with some recent patch (I don't know exactly what patch), I don't think (at least for Lorien) elves are strong enough for their costs, compared to other sides. It seems love have been given to all, and now elves are lacking, for the given love was absolute, not relative to the side: Give 100 armor to gobelin and elves, and they are quite the same, while elves still are few and slow.

[LuckyPistol]

The Elves of DaC don't seem too different to me, but Imladris as its own faction was definitely the most fun I've had with the the Elves as a race. Wood Elves are still "Lorien-light" but now that they can't immediately mow down orc units in one volley I think they're the most balanced. Their elites are still Lorien-level, but the rest of your roster provides just enough of a challenge (combined with the infamous early-game Elven economy) to keep a player on his toes before Barracks Event hits and your economy kicks off. Lorewise, it makes sense for the Wood Elves to not be in quite the same league as the High Elves or Lothlorien.

[Vifarc]

In the reverse, I had found easy for the orcs to defeat the elves, I had tried because of the whinnings about elves being so OP (like I had tried long ago to fight with dwarfs against snaga),
so now I imagine it's even more easy.

[orclover5]

That is probably a correct statement. Still, charge needs to be upped as a horse is like a tank from an infantry perspective. Especially from a ranged infantry perspective. Yet I'm not supposed to make them rout via cavalry charge right....I'm not impressed. Found the unit in the export_descr_unit.txt. Gonna make the necessary changes for my next campaign.


Now that is for sure. Yet, barbaric light missile units are not supposed to endure a cavalry charge from the back and stand their ground against it. Or are they .. eh.

Cavalry SHOULD be completely neutralized by all of the long range archers in this game...English longbowman could completely destroy an army of French knights in a direct charge because horses are terrified by arrows and a horse with an arrow in it kind of runs or throws their rider. Cavalry is meant to run down routing units only...heavy cavalry can cause infantry or light bowman to rout...but cavalry should not be a cycle charge unit and should not be able to take a high velocity arrow fire such as any post BE arrows. DAC tried to nerf them to be appropriate and the community flipped because they wouldn't be able to win anymore without cheesing with cavalry. The game is much better with weaker cav.

[Sar1n]

Cavalry SHOULD be completely neutralized by all of the long range archers in this game...English longbowman could completely destroy an army of French knights in a direct charge because horses are terrified by arrows and a horse with an arrow in it kind of runs or throws their rider. Cavalry is meant to run down routing units only...heavy cavalry can cause infantry or light bowman to rout...but cavalry should not be a cycle charge unit and should not be able to take a high velocity arrow fire such as any post BE arrows. DAC tried to nerf them to be appropriate and the community flipped because they wouldn't be able to win anymore without cheesing with cavalry. The game is much better with weaker cav.

WTF. Seriously, I thought this kind of myths was dispelled on these boards...after all, there's plenty of discussion around on historical warfare.

[Morifea]

Sarin has it.
Still, one has to admit that there is too much Battle-Cavalry roaming around in Middle-Earth. Cutting the mounted Bodyguards for most Factions was Imo the right step.
The Team of Roma Surrectum III used a different approach. In this mod, the Heavy Cavalry gets really fast exhausted, there are around 2-3 Charges, then you`ll have to rest them.
That limits their usability, but makes it more realistic. Only the most Elite Cavalry had the durability and the Discipline to mount repeated Charges, like the French Gendarmes in the Italian Wars.

[orclover5]

WTF. Seriously, I thought this kind of myths was dispelled on these boards...after all, there's plenty of discussion around on historical warfare.

Impervious armor doesn't mean a knight is impervious. A knight with a lance is a one shot soldier. They almost always break the lance on initial contact because they are killing something with a large pointy stick...stick breaks. They then have to dismount, get a new lance, or use a secondary weapon to run down fleeing troops. Arrows can't penetrate armor but they can find their way through eye ports or breathing slots...and 5000 bowman, shooting 12 arrows a minute, at a group of knights in combat for hours is going to mean a lot of arrows find these spots. Basically the game should allow one absolutely devastating charge on a cool down timer of like 5 minutes. And horses should be more vulnerable to arrow fire. Knights can easily survive a battle but can be made ineffective once they are dismounted. Cycle charging knights with a lance is so stupid...and it is the most dominate feature in the game. DAC should do everything they can to stop this...there actually is a clickable skill that increases damage done by like 50% for 30 seconds. If this was applied to horses it could give them a damage buff during their initial charge but then the horses would become less effective after this initial charge, as is reality. Of course running down routing troops, and making troops rout is in itself a very important part of battle.

[Sar1n]

Impervious armor doesn't mean a knight is impervious. A knight with a lance is a one shot soldier. They almost always break the lance on initial contact because they are killing something with a large pointy stick...stick breaks. They then have to dismount, get a new lance, or use a secondary weapon to run down fleeing troops. Arrows can't penetrate armor but they can find their way through eye ports or breathing slots...and 5000 bowman, shooting 12 arrows a minute, at a group of knights in combat for hours is going to mean a lot of arrows find these spots. Basically the game should allow one absolutely devastating charge on a cool down timer of like 5 minutes. And horses should be more vulnerable to arrow fire. Knights can easily survive a battle but can be made ineffective once they are dismounted. Cycle charging knights with a lance is so stupid...and it is the most dominate feature in the game. DAC should do everything they can to stop this...there actually is a clickable skill that increases damage done by like 50% for 30 seconds. If this was applied to horses it could give them a damage buff during their initial charge but then the horses would become less effective after this initial charge, as is reality. Of course running down routing troops, and making troops rout is in itself a very important part of battle.

You missed a few things. A knight swinging a longsword or mace around is still pretty dangerous, whether he's in saddle or not. They were far from one-shot.

And bloody hell, you're repeating a myths that can be dispelled by few seconds of thinking. A longbow has over 100lb draw weight. That's not a thing anyone can repeatedly draw every 5 seconds for hours. Longbowmen carried roughly 30-60 arrows to battle. Most of them would be expended in skirmishing against lighter troops, some during knights' charge and few at point blank shots during melee. But they definitely didn't shoot for hours. An effective range of a high draw longbow is under 200m, how many arrows can a longbowman shoot in time that takes a charging knight to cover those 200m? Guess.