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Thread: Catalonia Revisited

  1. #21
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    I have been watching our TV, live transmission - chaos is worsening, in some streets the police is surrounded, blinded with lasers and attacked with fireworks.
    --
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    You are right, but I have the feeling some people forget those guys broke the law (i.e: they used public resources in a spurious way) and most independence leaders just manipulated part of the catalonian population with demagoguery (nationalist demagoguery) and what they knew where false promises. (I insist on pointing out the errors on "the Catalan side" because it seems that the errors on the part of the central government are evident).
    Read the update, previous post.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 18, 2019 at 02:26 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  2. #22
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Double post,delete please
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  3. #23
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Sorry, I was talking about this. (As I said before there are many different issues, all quite complicated, even more if you are fed up with all this, apologies)

    The Prosecutor's Office investigates the diversion of public funds to the PDeCAT through a sovereign entity (El Mundo) (Just a detail)

    This investigation is followed outside the one initiated by the Court of Instruction number 1 of Barcelona on a possible fraud of a minimum of two million euros through 28 grants from the Diputación de Barcelona in matters of development cooperation with countries of America Latina, Morocco or Bosnia, among others, between 2012 and 2015. The Udef considered that these alleged illegalities were committed using a network of entities among which, supposedly, would be CatMón and Igman.

    Therefore, a year ago the judge ordered a police operation in which there were entries and records in several public bodies and the headquarters of these entities, in addition to the arrest of about 30 people, among which was the former head of International Relations of CDC and president of the CatMón Foundation, Víctor Terradellas. Within this investigation the agents indicated that sovereign organizations received between 2011 and 2015 more than ten million euros from various Catalan public bodies, such as the Diputación de Barcelona. The case in this court opened for the crimes of embezzlement, prevarication, bargaining prohibited to public officials, falsehood and subsidy fraud, although it is kept secret pending several police reports.

  4. #24
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Mishkin, I know that they were convicted on charges of sedition/disobedience and misuse of public funds, according to the law.But in the end they were jailed for seeking to allow the people of Catalonia to peacefully choose their own future. Another thing-severity in a sentence requires common sense.
    I don't know whether independence is a good solution or not, but they have the right to choose how they want to live, their political destiny:
    As I see it, the options are, a) Stay b) Leave c)Federation.
    This will require a Spanish constitutional reform. Spain is a unitary state like France, and Italy. Austria, Belgium and Germany are federal states. The Spanish constitution defines the state as "one and indivisible". It's also an highly decentralized state (but as we have seen, many are adamant that Spain is a plurinational country).
    The UK is another example of an unitary and decentralized state. In the same way, the UK devolved powers are delegated through the central government.
    Federal Britain; The case for Decentralization Download the full report
    ...Although independence was defeated in the September 2014 Scottish referendum , secessionist sentiment might well be rekindled ... the pressure on the UK political system might well increase, perhaps even to breaking point.

    These developments have led many to consider the possibility that Britain might need some more formal system of federalism to survive. Proposals for a more federal and decentralized UK have been advanced on both the left and the right in the hope that they might resolve the seeming impasse in which the nation finds itself.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  5. #25
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    Ermm Not sure about that, She would certainly be first in line to prosecute in the Scottish court if the role was reversed, if SNP's behaviour over Brexit is anything to go by.

    Barcelona tonight looking and sounding like a war zone.

    What do you mean by the SNP’s behaviour over Brexit?
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  6. #26
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    First, we need to agree on a reality check. Catalan poll: 80% want a mutually agreed independence referendum
    Such a vote is backed by 61% of unionists and 97% of independence supporters
    -------
    Allow me to provide a brief retrospective on what has happened over the last years. Puigdemont was suspended from office on 27 October 2017, by the Spanish government.The Catalan regional election called by Madrid held in December 2017 saw the three pro-independence parties retain their absolute majority in the Catalan parliament. On the 17th of May of 2018, it took barely three minutes for a new Independentist be sworn in the highest representative of Catalonia, with Junts per Catalunya and Republican Left of Catalonia voting in favour of him.
    On 17 October, before the Catalan parliament, the new President made a proposal "on how to exercise Catalonia’s right to self-determination as soon as possible". Junqueras, who was sentenced to 13 years, wrote from prison,"What I’m sure of is that this conflict is to be resolved via ballot boxes … we are convinced that sooner or later a referendum is inevitable because otherwise, how can we give a voice to the citizens?"
    -----
    It's irrelevant whether you like him or not, ex-Catalan president says - Guardian

    Mas, who was barred from holding public office for two years after being convicted of disobeying the Spanish constitutional court by holding the symbolic independence referendum in 2014, said he is stunned by what has happened in the past two years.
    He would never have imagined the nine politicians would end up in prison for sedition, nor that Puigdemont would end up in exile after fleeing to Belgium to avoid arrest and is now fighting to avoid extradition.
    “I knew there could be legal consequences – I suffered them myself – but I thought they would be punished for disobedience with fines and not with charges of sedition,” he said. “Whether or not you’re in favour of independence, the sentences trample all over basic rights.”
    Mas’s ban on holding office has now ended.
    He suggested that voters could be asked two questions in the referendum: whether they wanted to renegotiate their relationship with the central government with a new statute of regional autonomy, or whether they favored independence.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  7. #27
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The prison sentences of nine to 13 years handed down by the Spanish Supreme Court to nine Catalan secessionist leaders raise the question of whether Spain has a law and order problem that should bother the European Union the way Poland’s and Hungary’s infractions do. Few other democracies would have sent people to prison for such a long time for what is essentially no more than extreme speech.
    In demanding freedom for Oriol Junqueras and his fellow former officials involved in Catalonia’s illegal secession referendum and failed independence declaration of 2017, Catalans thronging the streets of Barcelona have a more legitimate cause than in insisting on unilateral secession. The harshness of the punishment is distinctly un-European.
    13 years is comparable to a murder sentence in pansy states like UK and Germany. It's freaking scandalous.

    And @mishkin and "demagoguery": Well, you have to stir up emotions and go "rawr-rawr" for an undertaking like that. Nobody was supposed to be deceived by it, though. It was an honest attempt at realizing independence. There is no evidence whatsoever for any possibility to exploit the emotions of the supporters, they were supposed to get exactly what they wanted, it's just that there wasn't enough support in the end - how is that deceptive, therefore demagoguery?

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Barcelona hit by general strike in support of jailed Catalan leaders. More than 500,000 in the streets.
    I find that rather decent and heart warming, btw. Something like that wouldn't be possible in Germany.
    Last edited by swabian; October 20, 2019 at 12:11 AM.

  8. #28
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    And @mishkin and "demagoguery": Well, you have to stir up emotions and go "rawr-rawr" for an undertaking like that. Nobody was supposed to be deceived by it, though. It was an honest attempt at realizing independence. There is no evidence whatsoever for any possibility to exploit the emotions of the supporters, they were supposed to get exactly what they wanted, it's just that there wasn't enough support in the end - how is that deceptive, therefore demagoguery?
    There was a declaration of independence as a result of the "elections", an independence that they themselves revoked during the same speech. They knew perfectly well that what they were doing was nothing more than a political maneuver while telling their followers that everything was very real. (better not to start talking again about all the lies inherent in any nationalist movement).

    I find that rather decent and heart warming, btw. Something like that wouldn't be possible in Germany.
    I would finf much more heart warning if people massively supported those who demand decent pensions or the jailed kids accused of terrorism for fighting with some police officers at dawn in a bar. (to give only two examples).

  9. #29
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    There was a declaration of independence as a result of the "elections", an independence that they themselves revoked during the same speech. They knew perfectly well that what they were doing was nothing more than a political maneuver while telling their followers that everything was very real. (better not to start talking again about all the lies inherent in any nationalist movement).
    They knew perfectly well that it requires actual courage to do it, as well as a relevant majority, so they tried - and failed. It's easy to pull out the rigor of state reason in the aftermath. It's even easier to align with the winners, so you don't have to burden your conscience.

  10. #30
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    05/05/19 Spain's top court says Catalonia's Puigdemont can run for EU elections

    EU court rejects Puigdemont's request to claim MEP seat Tuesday ...

    ... barred from entering the European Parliament in Brussels on Wednesday, following his election as an MEP last weekend.
    Meanwhile, a few days ago- it's the third arrest warrant,
    Spain's Supreme Court issues new Carles Puigdemont arrest warrant

    Brussels prosecutor asks Spain to translate Puigdemont arrest warrant

    Former Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont walks free

    ---
    What a mess.
    --
    Josep Borrell,the Spanish foreign minister will soon become the EU's foreign policy chief,
    Catalan independence leaders accused of 'totalitarian attitude' | Guardian

    The Spanish foreign minister has accused the pro-independence Catalan government of exhibiting a “totalitarian attitude” by excluding and ignoring the 50% of Catalans who oppose breaking away from Spain.
    But - who doesn't want a referendum? Spain or Catalonia?
    And again: Catalan poll: 80% want a mutually agreed independence referendum

    -----
    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    13 years is comparable to a murder sentence in pansy states like UK and Germany. It's freaking scandalous.
    Spain's far-right Vox party: Catalan sentences not harsh enough
    The Spanish far-right Vox party that acted as ‘popular prosecutor’ in the Catalan Trial, has expressed disappointment with the verdict, claiming the sentences are not harsh enough.
    For many of them the death sentence is the right choice.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 20, 2019 at 03:13 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #31
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post

    For many of them the death sentence is the right choice.
    Well, that's just depressing. Seriously sad.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    The Spanish prosecutors seem to me to have made an Easter 1916 mistake...
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    Baseless Assertions on the Celts Since 1996

  13. #33
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    What do you mean by the SNP’s behaviour over Brexit?
    Using the Scottish judiciary as a political tool, which can only serve the interests of those who wish to fracture the Union. Courts adjudicate on things that have transpired or in this case have not transpired, not to compel an elected government into a specific action. Governments should foremost be answerable to the people, not HM court system.

    Scottish court asked to delay ruling on Johnson's Brexit extension request

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKBN1WZ0P2
    Anti-Brexit campaigners said they would ask a Scottish court on Monday to delay its ruling on a legal challenge that sought to force Prime Minister Boris Johnson to comply with a law requiring him to request a delay to Brexit

    The group asked the court earlier this month either to issue an order forcing Johnson to ask for a delay or instruct that a letter be sent to the EU on his behalf if he refused to.
    Given the situation in Catalonia, the role of legal orders in politics would seem counter productive, at a time when passions need to be calmed to avoid the type of scenes in Barcelona last weekend.

    Call for direct rule in Catalonia over separatist 'chaos
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...nias-autonomy/
    The leader of the Spanish opposition party Ciudadanos on Sunday demanded Madrid impose direct rule in Catalonia after days of separatist protests, as he led a pro-Spain counter-demonstration in Barcelona.

    Albert Rivera, the head of the centre-Right party, called on Spain’s Socialist Party government to end the “chaos”, suspend Catalonia's autonomy and remove its president, Quim Torra, from office.
    “Torra must be sacked. What are they waiting for when there is an article in the Constitution that allows for this?” Mr Rivera said to a crowd of some 2,000 people.

    He was referring to Article 155, which allows for Madrid to intervene in autonomous communities deemed to be acting unconstitutionally or against Spain's interests. It was first enacted in Catalonia to remove the government of Carles Puigdemont after the banned independence referendum of October 2017.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    It's a bit difficult for me to sympathise with obsession over imaginary concepts.
    All concepts of independence and culture differences are imaginary. Free immigration between countries proves that.

    Why is it not enough reason to be independent, that some people just want to be?

  15. #35
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Several officials of the Catalan government and the police openly violated the law and were appropriately accused of sedition and misuse of public funds...
    ...related to the independence referendum. The supreme court jailed them for exercising their right to peaceful political expression. Let's keep in mind that applications for Puigdemont extradition have been refused or abandoned because the allegations are recognised as purely political in Belgium, Germany and Scotland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    ...such blatantly illegal actions should and will not be tolerated, at least in what concerns the Kingdom of Spain It's a bit difficult for me to sympathise with obsession over imaginary concepts.
    Its difficult to me to sympathize with the Castilian nationalism, deeply intolerant, who refuses to accept the reality: Spain is a plurinational state. The territorial crisis in Catalonia is a constitutional crisis, ultimately political in nature. It's telling that more than 60% of the Catalans believes they should be pardoned, the same proportion of the rest of the Spanish population believes the opposite.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    ... exploiting tribalism and nationalism for purely selfish purposes, with the goal of advancing their careers, and at the expense of the society's interests,
    It is assumed by the Spanish nationalist politicians that the "childish" Catalan citizenry cannot decide or control they own future. Ask the Catalan people what they want!

    Just today, 350,000 flood Barcelona's Marina street to reject the sentences. Separatist protest draws 350,000 in Barcelona BBC.

    Meanwhile, supporters of the far-right Vox party rallied in the Spanish capital Madrid on Saturday to hear calls for a harder line on the separatists.
    Party leader Santiago Abascal attacked Spain's mainstream parties, including the ruling Socialists, telling the crowd: "Faced with criminal separatism, there is only Vox!"
    No, Abdülmecid I, it's not a criminal separatism.

    In 2006, Pasqual Maragall wrote a prophetic letter to Felipe Gonzalez. It says, "Catalonia is older than Spain, and now we are inventing a new Spain encompassing the old Catalonia, the old Castile,the old Basque country, the old Andalusia... our solution is well known, it's a federal solution. Anything else than this will open the gates to a social majority in Catalonia who will decide to formalize the Catalan independence".
    Democracy, dialogue and a referendum are the only way forward.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 26, 2019 at 02:39 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  16. #36

    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Pasqual's comment about the alleged longevity of an abstract concept is the epitome of chauvinistic nonsense. Personally, I just don't think that certain nationalisms are better than others. In my opinion, neither Castilian nationalism nor his Catalan counterpart are ideologies that need to be treated seriously or with respect. However, I doubt that the government and the tribunal court has been motivated by Castilian nationalism. Firstly, their membership is not exclusively composed of Castilians and secondly, they explained their decisions by arguing that the actions of the Catalan administration violated the country's laws. This is an objective fact and, although someone could ask for clemency, for the sake of reconciliation and harmony, blaming the judges and Madrid for tribalist bias seems rather unjustified. This view is also reflected on the polls Ludicus cited. The fact that the majority of Spaniards agree with the verdict implies that partiality lies with the Catalans and not with the rest of their compatriots.

    Anyway, I fully agree that the Catalans should have the right to decide their destiny and that the central authorities should recognize the result of the referendum, no matter of how absurd or self-destructive it may be. That being said, sloppily organising a referendum, by disregarding the laws you are supposed to endorse and protect, while also using the result, despite only a minority having bothered to vote, is both immoral and unnecessarily adds fuel to the fire. By not taking into consideration the view of the Catalan people's majority, it directly led to polarisation and extremism. It was probably the best election gift the right-wing and quite hostile to independence Citizens could hope for. This is mainly why I would never object to the former leadership of the autonomous community of Catalonia being treated as harshly as possible. Political considerations have their importance, but populists need to remember that manipulation and authoritarianism will and should never be tolerated.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; October 26, 2019 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Department of Montserrat is the only solution.

  17. #37
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Anyway, I fully agree that the Catalans should have the right to decide their destiny and that the central authorities should recognize the result of the referendum,
    Absolutely. Let's keep in mind that Catalonia is Europeist.

    Pasqual's comment about the alleged longevity of an abstract concept is the epitome of chauvinistic nonsense
    Not exactly. Pasqual Maragall, deeply catalanist, said the future is federalist, and the ruling nationalism is condemned to die. Maragall dice que el futuro es federalista y que los nacionalismos

    He once said, "All I ask is a pluralist and united Spain; federalism is a loyal and legitimate effort that will prevail"
    So, what happened? he was crucified. En defensa de Pasqual Maragall | Opinión | EL PAÍS
    ----
    It's worth a read, Does Federalism Have a Future in Spain? - Green European Journal
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  18. #38

    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Also, abolishing the monarchy in Spain would do a lot to heal the rift.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  19. #39

    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    I'm not Catalan, but wouldn't a democratic approach be to ask the entirety of Spain to decide whether Catalonia should secede?

    After all, decisions that affect all Spaniards should be made by all Spaniards

  20. #40
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyrith View Post
    I'm not Catalan, but wouldn't a democratic approach be to ask the entirety of Spain to decide whether Catalonia should secede?

    After all, decisions that affect all Spaniards should be made by all Spaniards
    No, that wouldn't make sense.....Spain is a plurinational state.The UK is another plurinational state. The Scottish independence referendum was a national, Scottish, not an UK referendum.

    The fact that the majority of Spaniards agree with the verdict implies that partiality lies with the Catalans and not with the rest of their compatriots.
    "Compatriots"? patriotism demand a single "Patria". "Spain, One, Great and Free" was the mantra of the Franco dictatorship.
    Its telling that there are no words to the Spanish national anthem, and this is for the simple reason that there is no common agreement about the words should be.
    So, the Spanish patriotism/nationalism is good, Catalan patriotism is bad. It seems to me that the partiality lies with the rest of the authoritarian "compatriots".The majority of the Catalans disagree with the political, highly repressive verdict.
    -------
    The concept of Nation should be understood as a normative concept based on a claim to self‐determination- Article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)

    All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development
    ------
    Federalism or secession are both democratic responses to claims for political recognition/ constitutional accommodation of national minorities in plurinational states. Some plurinational states (eg.UK, Spain) inevitably have an asymmetrical government, the only (not so good) way to manage nationality questions. SNP, Scotland's largest political party declares, Scotland is a country, London is not - check the video.

    ----
    Unfortunately, to make things worse, some nations still have their culture under attack from some politicians from fa- right/right wing national parties towards these people and their culture (like it happens in Spain with the Francoist Vox/ Ciudadanos/ Popular Party). One way or another, what is in the root of the problem is the existence of plurinational states.
    In Europe, they can be integrated in a supranational/international system which could serve to manage the nationality question: let's keep in mind that Catalonia and Scotland-unlike the Brexit supporters- have never given up the feeling of being Europeans,
    The UK Institute for Government has recently a report that says
    A no-deal Brexit would be highly controversial in all three devolved nations and increase risks to the Union itself... Johnson’s commitment to strengthen and protect the Union is in direct tension with his promise to implement Brexit by 31 October with or without a deal. The government should accept that the Union is a voluntary partnership between the four parts of the UK, each of which has the right to self-determination.
    To sum up, I fail to see why a plurinational and inevitably problematic nation is necessarily better than European Union. In the EU, a common European identity in the sense of national identity does not exist, but in the process of coexistence the European countries are growing into quasi European identity. For example, Scotland and Catalonia always wanted to be part of Europe. Now and before.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 28, 2019 at 08:08 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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