Out of curiosity, Ludicus, why do you support Catalan indepententism? Their independence, not the mere fact that a legal and reliable referendum should be held
Out of curiosity, Ludicus, why do you support Catalan indepententism? Their independence, not the mere fact that a legal and reliable referendum should be held
Sorry, "not the mere fact..." doesn't make sense to me.
Those who support an independence referendum also support the right of a people to self-determination.
In fact, Catalonia has a national official anthem/lyrics, El Segadors/The Reapers
One proud nation sings "Flower of Scotland"
Spain's National Anthem,rejected lyrics (2008),
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
What's wrong with the lyrics ? nothing, really. So, why does Spain National anthem have no words? it all boils down to the fact that different national voices can't have only one heart.
Catalonia as a nation has the right to self determination. In this sense I support Catalan independentism. But again, that is not my preferred choice.I said and I repeat (previous posts) the best, simplest solution is a federal solution. The alternative is more repression, and there are alternatives to repression.
In my opinion, an united Spain cannot survive without federalism. Very recently, Pedro Sanchez has acknowledged that "Catalan crisis is not going to be solved in one, twp or even six years"
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Nothing is so admirable in politics as a short memory. October 2014,
Pedro Sánchez quotes the USA and Germany as examples of federalism for Spain
Ah-ha. "they do not want for Spain what they rightly ask for Europe ". Tell that to Conservative Spain,I tell Rajoy that the law is not enough his ultraconservatism is fuel for the independence movement.
The objective, Sánchez insisted, should be introducing Spain into a new territorial model, “just like the one of federal States such as Germany or, at the other side of the Atlantic, the United States”.
“A few days ago, we read that the Government was betting on a federal Europe; it is at least curious that they do not want for Spain what they, rightly, ask for Europe”, he added.
Franco's shadow: reburial battle sees Spain confront its darkest days ...
Very democratic, a ban on opposition parties. What can we expect from an authoritarian Party?Past and future collide as nationalist Vox party gears up for success in next month’s general election.
Last week alone, it has raised the prospect of banning far-left political parties and those that push for Catalan independence– a particular bestia negra.
Far-right Vox wants to shake up Spain's election - France 24
Ultra-nationalist, the party slams the outgoing socialist executive as an "enemy" of of Spain for trying to negotiate with separatists in Catalonia
Last edited by Ludicus; October 28, 2019 at 11:19 AM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
I find it very difficult to understand what you say. Do you advocate a more federal Spanish state (Spain is a de facto federal state) or do you advocate the independence of all the nations that make up the Spanish state? (the original question: if you advocate for catalonian independency, why?)Catalonia as a nation has the right to self determination. In this sense I support Catalan independentism. But again, that is not my preferred choice.I said and I repeat (previous posts) the best, simplest solution is a federal solution. The alternative is more repression, and there are alternatives to repression.
Last edited by mishkin; October 28, 2019 at 12:19 PM.
Really? I guess it's not my fault. No, Spain is not a federal state. If you think so, tell that to the Prime-Minister Pedro Sanchez.Read the current literature on federalism.Spain has 17 autonomous communities, making it a decentralized country, but not a federal state.
Again? I have already answered: "Catalonia as a nation has the right to self determination. In this sense I support Catalan independentism. But again, that is not my preferred choice". It's up to them to choose if they want to leave or stay.
Reductio ad absurdum.It would not be desirable from my point of view. An inquisitorial insistence on this topic doesn't bother me at all, feel free to go on repeating the same question over and over again. But in fact, it seems to me that all peoples have the right to self-determination.In Spain, the UK or anywhere in the world. In the democratic UK, Scotland may have -or not-a second referendum. Nicola Sturgeon has no plans to be arrested.
Last edited by Ludicus; October 28, 2019 at 02:00 PM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
The nonsense you are doing to not answer my question.
Edit: Good to see you edited your post trying to make it less "nonsensical".
A de facto federal state, where each autonomy controls its system of health, education, culture, many funds (many european funds), etc.
I am going to interpret that you don't want Catalonia to become independent from the rest of Spain, thanks.Again? I have already answered: "Catalonia as a nation has the right to self determination. In this sense I support Catalan independentism. But again, that is not my preferred choice". It's up to them to choose if they want to leave or stay.
Reductio ad absurdum.It (that all the nations of the Spanish state became independent states) would not be desirable from my point of view. An inquisitorial insistence on this topic doesn't bother me at all, feel free to go on repeating the same question over and over again. But in fact, it seems to me that all peoples have the right to self-determination.In Spain, the UK or anywhere in the world. In the democratic UK, Scotland may have -or not-a second referendum. Nicola Sturgeon has no plans to be arrested.
Last edited by mishkin; October 28, 2019 at 02:29 PM.
The acrimony is hilarious. It was a typo, and you know it. I should've written, "it's not a federal state". And the nonsense you are doing to make Spain a federal state.."de facto federal state, where each autonomy controls its system of health, education, culture, many funds".
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From a previous post, I wrote,
In fact, I repeat- ad nausea- Spain is not a de facto federal state. Or...is that a distinct lack (intentional or not) of understanding of this issue? learn from your prime minister Pedro Sanchez, Spain is not a federation. I quote again,The Spanish constitution defines the state as "one and indivisible". It's also an highly decentralized state"
And again- It's worth a read, Does Federalism Have a Future in Spain?we should introduce Spain into a new territorial model; A few days ago, we read that the Government was betting on a federal Europe; it is at least curious that they do not want for Spain what they, rightly, ask for Europe”
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What you/we want or not want is completely irrelevant.I was explicit, now and before, "Whatever we think, want or desire, it's quite obvious that Catalonia needs a political solution".
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In any case, an eventual self-determination of Catalonia doesn't necessary mean the beginning of an undesirable balkanization of Spain.
The recognition of Catalonia's right to decide separates Podemos from other major right wing parties in Spain. Pedro Sanchez desires a federative solution (see previous post). But, as Jordi Sànchez has put it, Sanchez doesn't have the guts. Se Pedro Sánchez tivesse “coragem política” concordava ... - Público
Here, in my opinion, the official position of the Portuguese government does not include respect for the will of peoples in this situation. It goes without saying that a lot of respected socialist politicians share my point of view, as is the case of Socialist MEP Francisco Assis, Uma verdade sobre a Catalunha | Opinião | PÚBLICO
You know Portuguese,
And again,"Aquí yace media España, murió de la otra media".
Ao contrário do que levianamente por vezes se afirma, o movimento independentista catalão não resulta de um nacionalismo étnico ou tribal de índole segregacionista. Essa é a tese preconizada pelos sectores mais conservadores da sociedade espanhola. Não corresponde, contudo, de forma alguma, à realidade...A receita que propomos é bem conhecida, trata-se de uma solução federal .
SPAIN: Charges for sedition and pre-trial detention against Jordi ...
Several national and international observers have also pointed out to what they consider as a number of irregularities in the process that lead to suspects of politicisation of the trial. See the reports:
- Reports collected by the International Trial Watch: https://internationaltrialwatch.org/...compressed.pdf (EN)
- Joint report by FIDH / EuroMed Droits (ES): https://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/madrid739espweb.pdf
- Joint report by FIDH / EuroMed Droits (FR): https://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/madrid739fweb.pdf
Over 150 Catal civil society organisations have signed a manifesto rejecting the sentence.
Amnesty International calls on Spanish authorities to drop the charges of sedition, which is very broadly defined to cover a wide range of acts, and could carry a penalty of 10 years in jail, against Jordi Sanchez and Jordi Cuixart and to put an immediate end to their pre-trial detention.
Last edited by Ludicus; October 28, 2019 at 07:42 PM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Latest news,
Legal opinion- Top EU court advised that Spain does not have right to deny jailed Oriol Junqueras his seat. EU lawmakers should decide on Catalan Leader. It is up to the European Parliament to decide whether it is appropriate to waive the immunity of its members EU advocate general: jailed Catalan leader has right to immunity as
Catalan parliament presses case for independence,
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We must admit that Catalonia needs a political solution before it's too late.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Would abolishing the monarchy help heal the rift in Spain?
Optio, Legio I Latina
I really doubt so. Like other European monarchies, Spanish is largely ceremonial, with power comparable to European presidents.
Catalonian problem is largely socioeconomic. Catalonia is Spain's "piggybank", generating huge income from tourism, while their own culture, distinct from central Spanish, is being weakened by both Spanish pressure and through masses of tourists.
No. The Catalan nationalists would not be appeased (they are not advocating a Spanish republic but an independent state) and the Spanish nationalists would see it as an unforgivable affront on the part of the government that raised it, especially if it were as a concession to catalan nationalism
It would be good if you provided data supporting those statements. Catalonia is a rich region such as Madrid or Valencia, has contributed to the coffers of the state and has benefited from the coffers of the state (Do you remember Barcelona '92? Do you know what the Ave is? Do you know why Catalan nationalist parties have supported right-wing Spanish nationalists governments?). What Catalonia yes has stood out especially in recent years is in cheap populism ("Spain steals us") and in its rejection of the idea of solidarity.
In my opinion, to understand the rise of catalonian nationalism, we must understand how a political party, destroyed by corruption (caso Palau (1) , caso 3% (2)), embraced independentism to recover popular power.
Convergencia (wiki)
History
Founded in 1974, in the wake of the Spanish transition to democracy, Convergència was the major partner in the long-standing coalition Convergence and Union (CiU), together with the Democratic Union of Catalonia. Until their split in 2015, both parties partnered in a coalition which dominated Catalan regional politics from the 1980s to the early 2000s.[9] CDC's founder, Jordi Pujol, was the regional president of Catalonia for 23 consecutive years.
After spending seven years in opposition, CiU, led by Artur Mas, returned to power in the 2010 parliamentary elections but, unlike in previous stints at government, CiU could not attain an absolute majority.
Separatist turn
The minority government era in Catalan politics started in 2010, introducing previously unseen variable geometry in the region's politics. Hence, CiU partnered initially with the Socialists' Party of Catalonia,[10] then with the Popular Party.[11]
Eventually, none of these tactical agreements held and a period of political instability followed, substantiated in successive snap elections (2012 and 2015).
During this period, Convergència, led by Mas, initiated a progressive but fast turn into separatism, leaving behind its more vague Catalan nationalist stance. By 2015 Convergència was openly advocating and trying to lead Catalan separatism.
One of the consequences of the separatist turn was the termination of the CiU coalition with Unió Democràtica for the 2015 election. At that point, Convergència together with Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya formed a new coalition Junts pel Sí which explicitly demanded independence for Catalonia.
The situation remained unstable, as Junts pel Sí could not attain an absolute majority. As of 2016 it runs a minority government led by CDC member, Carles Puigdemont.
At Spanish-wide politics
Historically, at times of minority governments, CiU had played the role of kingmaker, allowing the formation of Spanish government by lending tactical support of its MPs at the Spanish Parliament in exchange for additional investments in Catalonia from the Spanish government.
(1) ‘The Palau Case’, one of the major corruption scandals in Catalonia, comes to court
"After 8 years of investigation, the main names behind the so-called ‘Palau case’ will testify before the court this Wednesday. The judge accuses former governing party ‘Convergència Democràtica de Catalunya’ (CDC), which ruled in Catalonia in coalition with Christian Democrat Unió for more than 20 years, of illicitly receiving €5.1 million from the construction company Ferrovial through donations made to Barcelona’s Palau de la Música concert hall. The judge, Josep Maria Pijuan, believes the money was allegedly given in exchange for the allocation of public work contracts. Fèlix Millet and Jordi Montull, the main managers of Palau de la Música at that time, have been the main focus of attention during the investigation, since there was evidence that they might have stolen €26 million from the cultural organisation for their personal benefit. CDC, now renamed as PDeCAT have repeatedly claimed that the accusations “have not been proven” and former Catalan President, Artur Mas, insisted he believed in the word given by the party former treasurer, Daniel Osàcar, who has been indicted by the judge."
(2)Caso 3% (Wiki in spanish only, sorry)
"The 3% case, also called the ADIGSA case and the Convergencia case, is a political corruption scandal that points to the collection of illegal commissions at a percentage of around 3% of the budget of public works awarded by the Government of the Generalitat of Catalonia of Convergencia y Unió, which was mentioned for the first time by the then president of the Generalitat Pasqual Maragall in 2005, and which was finally archived. Subsequently, the case was reopened and since 2015 it is in the investigation phase in the court".
(But yes, sure. Who steal the catalans are "the spaniards").
Last edited by mishkin; November 20, 2019 at 03:53 AM. Reason: links
IDK, having Franco's political grandson as head of state must be a (unnecessary) provocation for many.
Optio, Legio I Latina
thats right, and thats a reason there are many spanish republicans (but less than a 50% if I recall clearly)
While a federal solution to the Catalonia issue might sound good on paper, federal systems can be tricky to implement in practice.
There will always be some tussle and conflict between the central and local governments, even if the rights and responsibilities of both are spelled out.
The Spanish Constitutional Court single term od 9 years might not be long enough to provide the independence required to successfully mediate between conflicts of national and local sovereignty that will arise in a federal system. The US Supreme Court lack.of term limit makes it much harder for any political party to stack the court with its own ideology that would seem to be possible with the Spanish Constitutional Court. Currently, I think the average term for an US Court Justice is something like 25 years, and historically, the average has been around 15 to 17 years. It is difficult for any party, in the US at any rate, to regain control over both the Senate and Presidency that long. Even still, the US had to fight a major regional civila war to firmly establish the grip of the central government.
A Federal Germany is anexample of this situation in Europe. It succeeded the centralised Germany of the third Reich.On a side note, a federal solution for Europe is the only way to keep an united Europe. If there is no political Europe,I'm convinced that soon or later the euro will die.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
We have already talked about that. When I saw that someone revived this discussion I thought it was to talk about the latest news regarding Russia. First the bots, now this:
The Puigdemont liaison offered Russia to recognize Crimea in exchange for support for the independence of Catalonia
Politics makes strange bedfellows, and it's usually embarrassing
Misplaced irony. I can't believe you're burying your head in the sand.What makes you uncomfortable, Mishkin? Catalonia needs a solution: a negotiation, a federation, a Scottish-style solution.When I saw that someone revived this discussion..
Polls show 70% of Catalans want to be able to vote in a referendum. They want to be heard. New poll Percepció sobre el debat territorial a Espanya. 2019" conducted by CEO (Centre for Opinion Studies) for the Catalan government. Survey: 36% of Spaniards, 70% of Catalans support a self
Alfred Bosch is a member of the Barcelona City Council from the left-wing, pro-independence Esquerra Republicana party. He rightly says,70% of Catalan respondents support the holding of a referendum. In Catalonia, 75.0% support a political solution; in the rest of Spain, 45.2% do.
As for the question of independence itself, 49.3% of Catalans are in favour of it, whilst 41.2% are against.
Food for thought,The legality of the whole process is not the main issue, Was apartheid legal? Yes. Was it legitimate? No. Was the lack of women’s rights legal? Yes. Does that mean it was legitimate? No. The lack of civil rights, was that legal? Yes. Was it legitimate? No. The fact that we cannot vote for our future, is that legal? Yes. But is it legitimate? No"
1 - Spanish Philosopher and writer Ortega y Gasset stated in 1932 at the Spanish Parliament that the Catalan question cannot be solved. He said,
"el problema catalán es un problema que no se puede resolver, que sólo se puede conllevar. Debemos renunciar a curar lo incurable...es un problema perpetuo que ha sido siempre, antes de que existiese la unidad peninsular y seguirá siendo mientras España subsista"The Catalan question cannot be solved, it can only be put up with. A problem in perpetuity from before peninsular unity will continue as long as Spain subsists. We must give up on the incurable
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"You have to bomb Barcelona at least once every 50 years"- "Hay que bombardear Barcelona cada 50 años para mantenerla a raya", Baldomero Espartero (1793-1879); Prime Minister of Spain (1837). It's really a strange time when the Prime Minister of a country declares the need for perpetual violence against his own citizens.
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Last but not least,
Gregorio Peces-Barba was a Spanish politician and jurist,and father of the Spanish Constitution. He was one of the seven jurists who wrote the Spanish Constitution of 1978. In 2011 he joked about bombing Catalonia in reference to Catalonia's independence project. "We are in better shape than in the past. I do not know how many times it was necessary to bomb Barcelona. This time things will be solved without having to do so." "No soy pesimista, estaremos en mejores condiciones que en otras épocas. No sé cuántas veces hubo que bombardear Barcelona. Creo que esta vez se resolverá sin necesidad de bombardear".
During his speech, Peces-Barba mused (?) in an allusion to the Catalan and Portuguese wars of secession of the 17th century: "What would have happened had we kept Portugal instead of Catalonia?" "We probably would have been better off with the Portuguese, "en lugar de quedarnos con Catalunya... Igual nos habría ido mejor si nos hubiésemos quedado en 1640 con Portugal".
He later added that Catalans are "oversensitive people and should have a better sense of humor." As far as I know, no member from the Portuguese government made any comment, and I have no further comments on this issue.
Last edited by Ludicus; December 01, 2019 at 01:31 PM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Its a fair point about legality and legitimacy. The Spanish Right flipped the table in 1936 with help from Hitler and Mussolini: it is gross hypocrisy their heirs are now carping about legality.
The Spanish monarchy has behaved with some decorum: Juan Carlos seems to have taken a leaf out of Elizabeth II's book and ruled with (mostly) tact and discretion. Should the monarchy survive? Its really the moral and legal underpinning of the Iberian Union. The monarchy proved the only vehicle for the surviving phalangist scum to retire with their wealth and dignity intact once the scumbag murderer-in-chief died.
Perhaps Spain like Great Britain is one sub par monarch away from dissolution?
Jatte lambastes Calico Rat
Who knows...
Or-why not have a Third Republic as a new beginning?...
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Like I mentioned in the previous post, a referendum is still possible,maybe even desirable.Let's take a close look at the remaining six fathers of the Spanish Constitution, and their thoughts on the subject.
Fraga Iribarne was the last surviving Franco minister. The phrase "La calle es mía" ("The streets are mine!") was attributed to him as his answer to complaints of police repression of street protests. He claimed that the streets did not belong to "people" but to the state. During a clash at the Church of St. Francis of Assisi between police and striking workers, on Fraga's orders the police stormed into a packed church into which 4,000 demonstrators had retreated. The police went on a shooting spree, resulting in five dead and over 100 wounded.
Iribarne famously said "Catalonia was occupied by Philip IV, it was occupied by Philip V, who vanquished it, it was shelled by General Espartero, who was a revolutionary general, and we occupied it in 1939 and we are ready to bear our rifles again. So, you know what to expect, and here is my musket ready to be used again"
(Cataluña fué ocupada por Felipe IV, fué ocupada por Felipe V, que la venció, fué bombardeada por el general Espartero, que era un general revolucionario, y la ocupamos en 1939 y estamos dispuestos a coger de nuevo el fusil. Por consiguiente, ya saben ustedes a que atenerse, y aquí tengo el mosquete para volverlo a utilizar).
Enough said.
Gabriel Cisneros once said "Still lamenting the death of Caudillo Francisco Franco, it is an honor to have played a leading role in the transition of Spain to full democracy". I can't say I'm surprised, Cisneros worked for Franco's administration in the Ministry of Labor and Employment (64/69), worked for Las Falanges Juveniles de Franco in 69/72, and was "elected" to the Francoist Cortes in 1971. He also worked in the failed project for reform of Arias Navarro, president of the government under Franco. It' s support base would be what was known as "sociological Francoism".
Herrero de Miñón never worked for Franco. This man was a genuine and great democrat. An unionist politician, but he always recognized Catalonia as a truly nation. "Cataluña es una nación y que, como tal, sus derechos históricos y nacionales tiene que ser siempre reafirmados" (1).
For Herrero de Minõn, " Catalonia has a language, culture and identify that a place like La Rioja does have".
La Ventana de la Cadena SER hosted for a long time a lively political tertulia (La Tertulia de Sabios) with Herrero de Minõn, the communist leader Santiago Carrillo and Pere Portabella, a Catalan political activist, anti-fascist and great filmmaker.
(On a side note, I highly recommend Pere Portabella's documentary "El Sopar” (2018), a dinner-conversation about being a political prisoner. Portabella filmed a clandestine dinner on the March 2nd, 1974, the dinner took place the same night that the Spanish regime assassinated the antifascist Salvador Puig i Antich).
(1) Fresh news. It's worth mentioning that PSC wants to recognise Catalonia as a nation in a a plurinational Spain and and approve the proposal in in the 14th Congress to be held from 13th to 15th December.
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And finally, two Catalans participated in the writing of the Spanish Constitution. Miquel Roca and Jordi Tura wanted the Constitutional text to grant the right of self-government to Spain's nations. The other five ministers refused.
Miguel Roca said recently, "No es un problema de juristas, es un problema de políticos". "It's a political, not a judicial issue". He stated that the Constitution does not ban a referendum on Catalonia’s self-determination: "It is a matter of political will". There is nothing, not a single article banning a referendum on this issue".
It's worth reading Pourquoi la Catalogne ne peut-elle pas s'auto-déterminer Cuadernos de civilización española contemporánea
A partir d’une conception unitaire de la nation espagnole, la rhétorique hostile à l’autodétermination s’appuie notamment sur deux arguments : le premier fait appel à la loi, le deuxième à des fondements supra-positifs... Nous verrons également que le discours du « Non » et la jurisprudence du Tribunal constitutionnel adoptent la même stratégie argumentative
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty