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Thread: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

  1. #21

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    the proposal serves a more important role of delineating citizenship or perhaps more accurately delimiting the concept or scope
    A purpose few people think is realized, and a few also find entirely inappropriate in the scope of other things useful to the site's advance. The facts pretty much indicate, as noted above, that digging into the direction your taking will only result in the same result as basically all other propositions made along these lines. Success is not achieved by the same old take. Realize the futility and make advances in directions that objectively add benefits to the broader site, or this will be yet another archived proposal to not see the light of day. I hate to take that approach, but it's the last one I think could actually get through. By the way.

    most object to citizenship because they see it has political. by creating a Senate class, you remove that notion.

    This has to be the largest oxymoron I've read all week, assuming by 'as' you meant 'as'. Literal history begs your pardon, your very description of how this class links with the administration and higher doings would chime in, and the (un)common sense standards would indicate that adding a new class that has teirs up citizenship and involves the dynamics of power is entirely against the spirit of that statement. Also, no, 'most' don't object to it because it is political. Speaking for myself, I object to it because I see little point in its operations and despite my willingness to give it a chance a while ago, I see absolutely nothing in the curia I could not achieve independently with motivation to send ideas to the appropriate staff who are the true faces in seeing anything get done. The recognition element's merit ends to me at the blingy badge and title; if there's going to be forums and other things attached to it, I firmly believe there needs to be a point to make that so. I do not see it. Thus I object.

    In some ways the Curia as it is I can relate to the entire site as it functions; both have similar issues, and a similar path that appears to be continuous. I seek anyone who wants to make meaningful contributions at this rate to open their minds and hold discussions on how to handle the broader site's current systems and polish things that have steadily aged poorly, such as the modding sections, elements of content staff and far more. This I believe would get TWC somewhere, not a proposal that adds much ado with users who could do the same thing at hex behest + more people able to contribute.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    A purpose few people think is realized, and a few also find entirely inappropriate in the scope of other things useful to the site's advance. The facts pretty much indicate, as noted above, that digging into the direction your taking will only result in the same result as basically all other propositions made along these lines. Success is not achieved by the same old take. Realize the futility and make advances in directions that objectively add benefits to the broader site, or this will be yet another archived proposal to not see the light of day. I hate to take that approach, but it's the last one I think could actually get through. By the way.

    most object to citizenship because they see it has political. by creating a Senate class, you remove that notion.
    1. If you read the history, citizenship evolved in the direction away from its original intent. When citizenship concept was narrow in scope there was no issues with citizenship being "political" or otherwise. It id what was intended to do, promote activity and a desire to remain on the site. it did so well that many people who stop playing the series still posted here years after. That's an incredible feat. To simply dismiss it because it evolved in the wrong direction over time would be foolish.

    2. Citizenship is NOT the Senate, though a Senate would be a citizen. If you want to be a Senate then you must contribute in a way that would warrant your sponsorship for it. If you o not wish to be a Senate, then do what you always do. Senator and Citizenship are two different things in the same way way as a Phalera is different than citizenship. You can choose to be a citizenship or just have the award. It is your choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    This has to be the largest oxymoron I've read all week, assuming by 'as' you meant 'as'. Literal history begs your pardon, your very description of how this class links with the administration and higher doings would chime in, and the (un)common sense standards would indicate that adding a new class that has teirs up citizenship and involves the dynamics of power is entirely against the spirit of that statement. Also, no, 'most' don't object to it because it is political. Speaking for myself, I object to it because I see little point in its operations and despite my willingness to give it a chance a while ago, I see absolutely nothing in the curia I could not achieve independently with motivation to send ideas to the appropriate staff who are the true faces in seeing anything get done. The recognition element's merit ends to me at the blingy badge and title; if there's going to be forums and other things attached to it, I firmly believe there needs to be a point to make that so. I do not see it. Thus I object.

    In some ways the Curia as it is I can relate to the entire site as it functions; both have similar issues, and a similar path that appears to be continuous. I seek anyone who wants to make meaningful contributions at this rate to open their minds and hold discussions on how to handle the broader site's current systems and polish things that have steadily aged poorly, such as the modding sections, elements of content staff and far more. This I believe would get TWC somewhere, not a proposal that adds much ado with users who could do the same thing at hex behest + more people able to contribute.
    Well, I supposed any further discussion would be pointless.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Do you really think that a Senator class will bring back citizens to the forums and in particular to both Curia and staff?
    What makes you believe that? For what reason, I mean if you think this Senator class proposal will do that, especially when almost everyone of your previous proposals failed to pass the Curia.
    I never said the Senator Class would bring back citizens to the forum. I said the Board of Citizens would promote citizenship by patronizing worthy members and then promoting citizens to pay it forward. The Senator class serves a different purpose. its purpose is to draw a clear delineation between citizenship and the expectation in taking an interest or participating in the operations of the site. Thus purpose is to make citizenship appealing as a reward for good posting rather than participation in a pseudo government, which many may not be interested in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    , Pike give us a break and stop repeating the same thing over and over again. Why not come up with something totally different that might interests people e.g new design on the homepage for instance?
    Yes, I am repeating myself. I hear pike, why black and I keep saying, I said white. Then I read, why black, and then I say , no it is white. I some point, I do hope you realize I am not saying what you claiming. If you read what you quoted, it does not match your question given my answer is almost the exact same thing.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Yes, I am repeating myself. I hear pike, why black and I keep saying, I said white. Then I read, why black, and then I say , no it is white. I some point, I do hope you realize I am not saying what you claiming.
    Pot, meet kettle.

    You are quite right though, further discussion is indeed pointless, as the merits of doing so is summed up in the ironically sourced quote.

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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Pot, meet kettle.

    You are quite right though, further discussion is indeed pointless, as the merits of doing so is summed up in the ironically sourced quote.
    No irony is the title, "senator" under your avatar.
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    No irony is the title, "senator" under your avatar.
    They aren't mutually exclusive, but yes, quite. It was certainly not intentional, I just forgot how to change the title again once rep decided whatever title it wanted for me past a certain point. But I digress.

    Only thing I have in common with a senator is a penchant for oration. In text, mind you.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quick question: Is this the way you want to grow the site? By making it even more bloated and even less accessible to new users?
    .







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Actually, it is the exact opposite. In the Board of Citizens proposal, it i design to make citizenship more accessible thus promoting more activity; something citizenship was supposed to promote. It was never meant to be an exclusive club in which you needed to d "a lot" to be a citizen.

    The Senate class, as noted already, delimits what citizenship ensuring a more favorable continuity that citizenship won't became an elitist group again. It create two paths; a path (Senator) for site operations and a path for contribution in other ares (Patrician/ Large Awards).

    For example, you have been a member longer than, have more than a 1000 posts, and unless you have had issues following the ToS, why have you not been approach? As noted by my patron, Omnipotent- Q, contribution in TD is contribution. (I don't know if you post in the TD or not, I am really just illustrating what contribution is).


    Member >>>> Citizenship ----
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Path 1 ------ Senator (incl. Novus)
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Path 2 ------- Patrician (Opifex, Loinscloth, Phalera)

    Note: If and when the Senator proposal passes, I would also propose that the Patrician Class can second a proposal for it go to vote as well.
    Last edited by PikeStance; October 20, 2019 at 08:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    How do you want to promote something that doesn't exist?
    Before to promote activity, you need to create activity: No activity = no contribution = nothing to be promoted Q.E.D.

    The other point is to consider how many members are still interested by citizenship when it's only a reward giving a "virtual title" and some nice pixels under your avatar
    The main issue here, beside the decrease of the site activity, is not the citizenship but rather the curia which is, to say the least, an outdated concept that needs a complete overhaul actually. Anything else won't be more efficient than a plaster on a wooden leg.
    These proposals, senator and board of citizens, are inadequate and useless, not to mention the patronus award whose sole aim is to promote the ego of some (how many citizens have patronized more than 10 members, honestly?).

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    How do you want to promote something that doesn't exist?


    Before to promote activity, you need to create activity: No activity = no contribution = nothing to be promoted Q.E.D.


    The other point is to consider how many members are still interested by citizenship when it's only a reward giving a "virtual title" and some nice pixels under your avatar


    The main issue here, beside the decrease of the site activity, is not the citizenship but rather the curia which is, to say the least, an outdated concept that needs a complete overhaul actually. Anything else won't be more efficient than a plaster on a wooden leg.
    These proposals, senator and board of citizens, are inadequate and useless, not to mention the patronus award whose sole aim is to promote the ego of some (how many citizens have patronized more than 10 members, honestly?).
    Pretty much this. I appreciate the effort youíve consistently put towards new ideas, Pike. However, I donít think giving citizens another horizon to chase addresses the underlying issue of site activity and engagement. There are plenty of titles and awards and recognition to go around for those who contribute to the site. I understand that once someone becomes a citizen, thereís an argument that the incentive to contribute is reduced. But I donít see citizenship as something the average user cares about or is motivated by - at least not anymore, and not at a level that justifies the effort to create a second tier. Cart, horse, and so on.


    A Senator class seems duplicative and does not really address the issues it proposes to fix. Making new users eminently aware of the needs of the site, advertising directly within the areas they already visit, and giving them explicit instructions on how they can help with a minimal learning curve, would be a better avenue of inquiry. Everyone wants shinies. No one wants to work consistently for free. Making it easier and less intensive for people to work for free and thus get the shinies is the way to go. More hierarchy and more discussion forums doesnít make sense from a cost/benefit perspective, given that the underlying goal is to recognize/encourage site contributions.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Actually, it is the exact opposite. In the Board of Citizens proposal, it i design to make citizenship more accessible thus promoting more activity; something citizenship was supposed to promote. It was never meant to be an exclusive club in which you needed to d "a lot" to be a citizen.

    The Senate class, as noted already, delimits what citizenship ensuring a more favorable continuity that citizenship won't became an elitist group again. It create two paths; a path (Senator) for site operations and a path for contribution in other ares (Patrician/ Large Awards).

    For example, you have been a member longer than, have more than a 1000 posts, and unless you have had issues following the ToS, why have you not been approach? As noted by my patron, Omnipotent- Q, contribution in TD is contribution. (I don't know if you post in the TD or not, I am really just illustrating what contribution is).


    Member >>>> Citizenship ----
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Path 1 ------ Senator (incl. Novus)
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Path 2 ------- Patrician (Opifex, Loinscloth, Phalera)


    Note: If and when the Senator proposal passes, I would also propose that the Patrician Class can second a proposal for it go to vote as well.
    That's a pure contradiction, nothing else.

    The Senate Class as you sees it will sooner rather than later become an elitist group, because not every citizen will get the a Patrician award and that's what it is today.

    So, nothing will change with the Senate Class proposal. However, if there were a path 3 then perhaps the Senate Class could change something, but somehow I doubt that will happen.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    How do you want to promote something that doesn't exist?
    Before to promote activity, you need to create activity: No activity = no contribution = nothing to be promoted Q.E.D.
    As already noted several times, this proposal has nothing to do with promoting activity. It delimits how citizenship will be define in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    The other point is to consider how many members are still interested by citizenship when it's only a reward giving a "virtual title" and some nice pixels under your avatar
    This is a more appropriate argument to remove all reward systems on all forums. It is the opposite of the current approach to managing forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    The main issue here, beside the decrease of the site activity, is not the citizenship but rather the curia which is, to say the least, an outdated concept that needs a complete overhaul actually. Anything else won't be more efficient than a plaster on a wooden leg.
    These proposals, senator and board of citizens, are inadequate and useless, not to mention the patronus award whose sole aim is to promote the ego of some (how many citizens have patronized more than 10 members, honestly?).
    Again, this is argument for any award on the site. It would very odd to get an ego about awards on a site. Awards are used on forums to generate more activity. People like getting them. As a teacher I give wards all the time. I can almost nothing, but it is an award, students will clamor to get it. They do not get an ego about that I doubt anyone gets an ego in the virtual world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Pretty much this. I appreciate the effort you’ve consistently put towards new ideas, Pike. However, I don’t think giving citizens another horizon to chase addresses the underlying issue of site activity and engagement. There are plenty of titles and awards and recognition to go around for those who contribute to the site. I understand that once someone becomes a citizen, there’s an argument that the incentive to contribute is reduced. But I don’t see citizenship as something the average user cares about or is motivated by - at least not anymore, and not at a level that justifies the effort to create a second tier. Cart, horse, and so on.


    A Senator class seems duplicative and does not really address the issues it proposes to fix. Making new users eminently aware of the needs of the site, advertising directly within the areas they already visit, and giving them explicit instructions on how they can help with a minimal learning curve, would be a better avenue of inquiry. Everyone wants shinies. No one wants to work consistently for free. Making it easier and less intensive for people to work for free and thus get the shinies is the way to go. More hierarchy and more discussion forums doesn’t make sense from a cost/benefit perspective, given that the underlying goal is to recognize/encourage site contributions.
    Again, i said this repeatedly. The Senate class is not design to generate more activity. It is meant to delineate citizenship as a an reward for good posting and ideal behavior. Anything else you choose to do will be a choice. This is true if you continue to contribute as a modder, writer, staff, or anything dealing with the operation of the site. Senator class is equivalent to patrician class; It differentiate over modding, writing, and debating from staff and operation of the site types of contribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    That's a pure contradiction, nothing else.
    The Senate Class as you sees it will sooner rather than later become an elitist group, because not every citizen will get the a Patrician award and that's what it is today.
    So, nothing will change with the Senate Class proposal. However, if there were a path 3 then perhaps the Senate Class could change something, but somehow I doubt that will happen.
    Path 3?
    A select few is not inherently elitist. Elitism is an attitude not a state of being.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    As already noted several times, this proposal has nothing to do with promoting activity. It delimits how citizenship will be define in the future.
    Sorry, I sould have made myslelf clearer. I was referring to this part of your post above mine:
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Actually, it is the exact opposite. In the Board of Citizens proposal, it i design to make citizenship more accessible thus promoting more activity; something citizenship was supposed to promote. It was never meant to be an exclusive club in which you needed to d "a lot" to be a citizen.
    The rest of my post concerned the other part of yours:
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The Senate class, as noted already, delimits what citizenship ensuring a more favorable continuity that citizenship won't became an elitist group again. It create two paths; a path (Senator) for site operations and a path for contribution in other ares (Patrician/ Large Awards).

    For example, you have been a member longer than, have more than a 1000 posts, and unless you have had issues following the ToS, why have you not been approach? As noted by my patron, Omnipotent- Q, contribution in TD is contribution. (I don't know if you post in the TD or not, I am really just illustrating what contribution is).


    Member >>>> Citizenship ----
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Path 1 ------ Senator (incl. Novus)
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Path 2 ------- Patrician (Opifex, Loinscloth, Phalera)

    Note: If and when the Senator proposal passes, I would also propose that the Patrician Class can second a proposal for it go to vote as well.
    Now, about this:
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    This is a more appropriate argument to remove all reward systems on all forums. It is the opposite of the current approach to managing forums.

    Again, this is argument for any award on the site. It would very odd to get an ego about awards on a site. Awards are used on forums to generate more activity. People like getting them. As a teacher I give wards all the time. I can almost nothing, but it is an award, students will clamor to get it. They do not get an ego about that I doubt anyone gets an ego in the virtual world.
    May be it's time to consider members as adults and not as children anymore. As said in the patronus award proposal, awards aren't an appealing carrot anymore to generate activity as mentioned by Legio_Italica as well.
    So we're back to the root of the problem. You can create all the awards you want for all the purposes you want, without activity, they're not more than a few useless pixels. In any case, they won't encourage members for more activity. Just have a look through the TWC Community Competitions forum and see how much the activity has decreased out there. Only the Screenshot Galleries, Picture of the Week, and Video Competitions seems to stay quite stable in terms of participation. But even there, submissions and votes aren't as numerous as they used to be.
    This observation can apply for any department giving shinies.
    And finally, about the ego, just tell me how many citizens have more than 10 patronizations in their book? How many will suddenly decide to patronize frenetically just to get a shiny? If it happens, then yes, it is about ego.

    So, all in all and to go back on the senator rank proposal, what's the point to introduce a kind of hierarchy or rank system in the curia when this 'institution' has lost the purpose for which it has been originally created? As I said already, the issue here is not about citizenship but rather about the curia itself. People have changed. The web has changed. The curia hasn't or not in the right direction for sure. It is outdated. As such, creating ranks or levels or whatever you want to name them in citizenship, won't generate any activity here for the same reason as for the awards for the rest of the site. I stay convinced that this proposal (like the 2 others) isn't the solution to make attractiveness to the site as a whole (curia included).
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    May be it's time to consider members as adults and not as children anymore. As said in the patronus award proposal, awards aren't an appealing carrot anymore to generate activity as mentioned by Legio_Italica as well.
    So we're back to the root of the problem. You can create all the awards you want for all the purposes you want, without activity, they're not more than a few useless pixels. In any case, they won't encourage members for more activity. Just have a look through the TWC Community Competitions forum and see how much the activity has decreased out there. Only the Screenshot Galleries, Picture of the Week, and Video Competitions seems to stay quite stable in terms of participation. But even there, submissions and votes aren't as numerous as they used to be.
    This observation can apply for any department giving shinies.
    And finally, about the ego, just tell me how many citizens have more than 10 patronizations in their book? How many will suddenly decide to patronize frenetically just to get a shiny? If it happens, then yes, it is about ego.
    This is beyond the scope of the proposal, but there are plenty of sites where it is mostly populated by adult that offer awards for doing various things. Moreover, there are more than enoigh "adults" on here who proudly choose to and display their awards. If you ant to discuss this further, then please make a thread and we can discuss further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    So, all in all and to go back on the senator rank proposal, what's the point to introduce a kind of hierarchy or rank system in the curia when this 'institution' has lost the purpose for which it has been originally created? As I said already, the issue here is not about citizenship but rather about the curia itself. People have changed. The web has changed. The curia hasn't or not in the right direction for sure. It is outdated. As such, creating ranks or levels or whatever you want to name them in citizenship, won't generate any activity here for the same reason as for the awards for the rest of the site. I stay convinced that this proposal (like the 2 others) isn't the solution to make attractiveness to the site as a whole (curia included).
    Because when the system was functioning as intended, the site grew and activity was high. When citizenship purpose deviated to become more and more exclusive, its reputation suffered. delimiting it to its original purpose must be done. Many have argued that citizenship should mean more (that is what the Senator class is being presented as) If you ant it to be more, then let's make it a separate thing so that citizenship does not become an exclusive club.

    pretending that citizenship has not made this site popular is delusional and it is exactly this kind of thinking that has led to the state we are now. besides, what do we have to loose? No one is here now, if it works, then we can all smile. If it doesn't, we wouldn't matter.
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Your answer misses the point... as usual
    And to conclude the discussion, I'm opposed to this proposal.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Your answer misses the point... as usual
    And to conclude the discussion, I'm opposed to this proposal.
    I am not sure I know what you mean?
    You stated an issue with the institution. I addressed it.
    You stated the internet has changed. I stated that all forums functions the same way still.
    You stated that Senator proposal won't promote activity which I already stated is not the intended purpose.

    If you are fundamentally against citizenship then the discussion is indeed over.
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am not sure I know what you mean?
    You stated an issue with the institution. I addressed it.
    Can't see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    You stated the internet has changed. I stated that all forums functions the same way still.
    Can't see it either. I must be blind.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    You stated that Senator proposal won't promote activity which I already stated is not the intended purpose.
    Really? Then I'd suggest you to re-write the OP:
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    This is a second tier of citizenship.
    The purpose of the second tier is to encourage members with citizenship to continue to contribute but also to take a more active role in the site operations. The second purpose is to reward those who have taken an active role in the site with a higher distinction.


    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    If you are fundamentally against citizenship then the discussion is indeed over.
    I've just been explaining why I'm opposed to your proposal(s) with an argumentation. Nothing else. You can agree, you can disagree, you can take it into consideration or you can even ignore it. I honestly don't mind. But trying to twist my remarks won't help you to get supports for sure
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 22, 2019 at 08:54 AM.
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Can't see it.
    Can't see it either. I must be blind.
    Really? Then I'd suggest you to re-write the OP:



    I've just been explaining why I'm opposed to your proposal(s) with an argumentation. Nothing else. You can agree, you can disagree, you can take it into consideration or you can even ignore it. I honestly don't mind. But trying to twist my remarks won't help you to get supports for sure
    This proposal is not made in a vacuum. The reason for a separate proposal is so that it can be discuss without overly complicating the Board of citizens thread.
    The purpose stated in the OP is about the continuation of contribution; however, it is contingent on reigniting the Patronage System as I mentioned other responses. The Senate class removes any expectations that citizenship is only a reward fro good posting and ideal behavior. Activity, as noted several times, will still come from recognizing those who contribute as always, but without the high standards of contribution that has undermined the entire system.

    I have no expectation of your support. I am only responding to correct your misconception about the purpose and intent of this specific proposal.

    If you really believe it is not going to work, support it, vote for it, hope it pass and let it fail. If it fail, it won't make a difference, because the site is failing anyway.
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  19. #39
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Attempts to turn the curia back into a complex organization with an air of elitism (can't you even be equals among you?) and a big love to distribute medals and nice badges for yourselves. Ok.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    If it fail, it won't make a difference, because the site is failing anyway.
    Yeah, we know that.

    But why do you keep repeating that year after year. Why? Is it for the sake of posting another pointless proposal about exactly the same thing or what?
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