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Thread: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

  1. #1
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    Default Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Ok, first, this was my Side A of my Patrician Class proposal, but I felt it was not the time for it. This was also my Side B of my Senator proposal, which did not end well.
    Given the discussion in the other thread in which I mentioned it in passing, I thought I throw it out


    Senator Class

    This is a second tier of citizenship.
    The purpose of the second tier is to encourage members with citizenship to continue to contribute but also to take a more active role in the site operations. The second purpose is to reward those who have taken an active role in the site with a higher distinction.

    The Requirements (open for discussion)
    1. Be citizen minimally for one year
    2. No Moderation warning within a one-year period.
    3. Have patronized at least one member for citizenship
    4. Be sponsored by a current Senator
    Must meet one of the following;
    1. Served as a Curial officer for at least six months
    2. Served on staff for minimal of six months or have at least served has a director level position for minimally three months.
    3. Served as administrator of the site for at least three months
    4. A member who has earned the Novus Award.

    Becoming a Senator
    + All Senators are voted in by Senators and Admins by a 2/3 vote
    + A prospective Senator must have a sponsor to be voted on.
    + Novus members and "emeritus admin," must be sponsored but will automatically be admitted without vote provided they meet the behavior requirement and maintained an active status.
    + Any Senator who receives a moderation warning is immediately remove from the Senate.
    + Non-active members (not logging in and posting within a Six-month period) shall be removed. The Citizen may be re-sponsored his they become active again.
    What is a Sponsor?
    It is senator who proposes a Citizen to become a Senator. There isn't a formal application. The process then works like citizenship application; after two days a poll is created unless Admin opposes the propose Citizen).

    Forum
    + A creation of the Senate for discussion.
    + The subforum will be Called the Senate.
    + Only Senators and Admin will be able to post and view the subforum.

    Benefits
    1. Proposals only need to be seconded by another Senator for the proposal to go to vote. This does not preclude a proposal going to vote through support from three citizens.
    2. Senators and Admin should discuss all passed proposals for implementations. The Admin may consult the Senate on other issues.
    The Admin still have the remit to veto and deny admission of citizens to the Senate class.


    Note: Senator Class and Patrician class are differentiated the following way. Patrician is and was meant to be an honorary title for those recognized who have exceptional contribution. Senator class recognizes those who have continue or who have chose to take an active interest in the operations of the site.
    Last edited by PikeStance; October 16, 2019 at 11:08 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    A solution without a properly defined issue, nor a presented reason for why this would solve the invisible issue. These things may go better if you introduce clarity in what exactly you're trying to achieve, as well as what the curia and hex are incapable of doing now.

    Adding a new system like this will not stir up the citizenry, nor is it necessarily a boon to the deliberately private operations of hex. I can't imagine this going anywhere.

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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    First, the second sentence states the reasoning behind the proposal. My motivation to propose it now comes from the discussion in the other proposal about citizens role on the site. Citizens who were recognized for their contribution in areas outside of the operations of the site have an incentive to participate to earn a higher classification. Those who already contribute to the operates have an additional motivation to continue their contribution for the operation of the site.

    It should be noted that not everyone who meet those criteria will be a Senator. They need to be sponsored by a current Senator and pass a vote. Senators do not have access to Admins forums.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    How does the proposal jive with the following repeated statement from elsewhere;

    The myth of citizenship is that citizens needs to engage in the site. Citizenship is about promoting good postings. The minute citizenship becomes about "awarding," or "engaging in site politics" it becomes something arduous indeed.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Not adverse to the idea of citizenship tiers, although many people were when the Patrician amendment was discussed - hence why Patricians have no additional powers or responsibilities. I'm not sure I really see enough of a role for Senators here just yet though; seems like the Patrician class and large awards are incentive enough to keep contributing post-citizenship. I'd like to know if there is something more Senators could do to warrant the creation of a new class, as it seems a little nebulous at the moment.

    I'll also echo Commodus and ask how this proposal interacts with your recent comments on cadres, higher classes and elitism, all of which seem, arguably, to be embodied in this proposal, yet decried by yourself as detrimental to the site

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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    There are a total of 43 members online at the moment. This is the highest number I've seen in the past few weeks. How in the great beard of Belisarius would you make this work with the current number of active users?

    2. Senators and Admin shall discuss all passed proposals for implementations.
    There is almost 1 admin to 4 active users. Why would you need more voices added. Right now it's more likely to become and admin than to get a serious infraction.
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    How does the proposal jive with the following repeated statement from elsewhere;
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Not adverse to the idea of citizenship tiers, although many people were when the Patrician amendment was discussed - hence why Patricians have no additional powers or responsibilities. I'm not sure I really see enough of a role for Senators here just yet though; seems like the Patrician class and large awards are incentive enough to keep contributing post-citizenship. I'd like to know if there is something more Senators could do to warrant the creation of a new class, as it seems a little nebulous at the moment.

    I'll also echo Commodus and ask how this proposal interacts with your recent comments on cadres, higher classes and elitism, all of which seem, arguably, to be embodied in this proposal, yet decried by yourself as detrimental to the site
    You are both conflating to conceptual ideas. Citizenship as something more than what I defined would be detrimental as it has proven to be so. However, i can see that an incentive to participation more in the operation of the site would warrant a secondary tier. It doesn't change what citizenship is. The Senator Class just simply award those members that show a higher devotion tot he operation of the site as opposed to contributing in other ways in which the Larger awards and the patrician class celebrates. Just to emphasize, asking or suggesting that citizens should or ought to participate in the operations of the site is detrimental to citizenship, but providing an award to those to do, would have no effect on the purpose and meaning of what citizenship is.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    You are both conflating to conceptual ideas.
    And you are shifting the goalposts, not even touching at the apparent dismissal of Settra's credible points. But then, this is a discussion method that is long familiar from your works, and after this post I think the 8 posts so far will have said it all. May others proceed with aims in a more fruitful direction for the site at large, but I digress;

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance
    The minute citizenship becomes about "awarding," or "engaging in site politics"
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance
    The Senator Class just simply award those members that show a higher devotion tot he operation of the site.
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance
    1. Proposals only need to be seconded by another Senator for the proposal to go to vote. This does not preclude a proposal going to vote through support from three citizens.
    2. Senators and Admin shall discuss all passed proposals for implementations.
    Awarding select citizens with input on administrative matters that Hex could surely handle themselves and an expedited process towards said Senators getting what they want.

    I'm surprised Hex hasn't come in with the good old confidentiality arguments regarding the latter; if it's anything more than where it is now, it enters that field, while if it is more of a discretionary discussion affair that resembles what's already done in the forum threads located in the base Curia, it is redundant to a good old member-issued discussion that has involvement of Hex members.

    If this isn't at minimum an award of distinction that highlights members as being closer to the ear of the administration and deeply integrated in site politics (that tricky word, 'implementation'), precisely in the field of what you quoted, then by god the sky was green all along.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    There are a total of 43 members online at the moment. This is the highest number I've seen in the past few weeks. How in the great beard of Belisarius would you make this work with the current number of active users?

    There is almost 1 admin to 4 active users. Why would you need more voices added. Right now it's more likely to become and admin than to get a serious infraction.
    The purpose of the citizenship concept is to promote activity. The Senator Class serves same conceptual function; it promotes activity in both staff and in the Curia. In general all forums do the same thing. The other day i receive a "badge" for using "@" in my response to a post.

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    And you are shifting the goalposts, not even touching at the apparent dismissal of Settra's credible points.
    I would appreciate that you do not make any assumptions. I had limited time int he morning and I was not able to immediately address his points.


    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Awarding select citizens with input on administrative matters that Hex could surely handle themselves and an expedited process towards said Senators getting what they want.


    I'm surprised Hex hasn't come in with the good old confidentiality arguments regarding the latter; if it's anything more than where it is now, it enters that field, while if it is more of a discretionary discussion affair that resembles what's already done in the forum threads located in the base Curia, it is redundant to a good old member-issued discussion that has involvement of Hex members.

    If this isn't at minimum an award of distinction that highlights members as being closer to the ear of the administration and deeply integrated in site politics (that tricky word, 'implementation'), precisely in the field of what you quoted, then by god the sky was green all along.
    I need to make one correction; I used the word "shall" when I meant to use the word "should." However, you correctly viewed it has a discretionary discussion.
    Admin still retain the remit to veto independent of any consultation and Senators do not have any say in the day to day operation of the site. My anticipation is that Senators will agree to the same level of confidentiality given their forum (Senate) will be close to public viewing. Admin still retain their right to refuse any member from becoming a Senator regardless of the vote outcome. This is the same authority they have with the awarding of any "awards" on the site. Admin have the ultimate say on the size and scope of the Senate.

    The added bonus is that this would help connect citizens (via Senators) with admin building a more cooperative and harmonious relationship. Anyone who has been a citizen for some time now know what I am referring to.
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    I'm not enamoured by the idea really Pike old boy, it seems a needless position if ask me, it looks a convoluted process and there isnt any need for a senator at the moment, perhaps if membership picks up, as Settra alluded to, but even then, I dont think there is any urgency, let alone need for such.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Sorry, Pike it's a well written and thoughtful proposal, but I can't see any beneficial of having a Senator class. And IIRC, isn't this proposal similiar to the old Senatorii rank?

    Opposed.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Taking a page out of the good book, I'm just going to address one thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I would appreciate that you do not make any assumptions. I had limited time int he morning and I was not able to immediately address his points.
    Apparently time for him is perpetually limited given the response to me that still includes no response to him. You'll garner goodwill if you wait a little and provide content for everyone to avoid one of multiple negative impressions derived from your style of response. No shame to a few hours delay in the interests of making a complete, proofread, articulate reply to all that needs to be said.

    Though at this point don't take my word for it, I'm redundant when the path where this is going is abundantly clear, with a single other user currently active having made a comment on the other discussion along these lines in true favor. He was predictable, the two more necessary are not.

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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Sorry, Pike it's a well written and thoughtful proposal, but I can't see any beneficial of having a Senator class. And IIRC, isn't this proposal similiar to the old Senatorii rank?
    No Senatorii "rank" was an honorarium for those who were founding members and ex-staff members. The original Patrician class would be more similar.


    Quote Originally Posted by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham View Post
    I'm not enamoured by the idea really Pike old boy, it seems a needless position if ask me, it looks a convoluted process and there isnt any need for a senator at the moment, perhaps if membership picks up, as Settra alluded to, but even then, I dont think there is any urgency, let alone need for such.
    The proposal isn't about addressing the here and now it is about correcting what went wrong the first go around. There is a call for Citizens to do more, but isn't a sentiment by many. There is no reason not to offer incentive for those who would like to do more for the site. Assuming the other proposal passes, they will be an influx of new citizens. Some will look to continue their contribution, perhaps others will be tempted to be part of the site. Moreover importantly, by drawing a clear delineation, then citizenship will never become as exclusive as it has become.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Oppose. What this proposal needs is a Caesar class where one man shall be elected to unilaterally rule the CYRIA. The current system is an ineffective democratic mess and this proposal does not change that.

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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    I do not understand what you mean by a "democratic mess." Do you wish to change the proposal process? The process is consistent with any other organization I have belong to in my life. The only exception being the requirement for three members to "second" a proposal in order to sent the discussion to vote. Apart from changing the second rule and requiring that all discussion last at least one week (which most people do regardless of a rule) I do not see how you can "reform" it. Anyway, I am not seeking to reform this process.

    The purpose of the proposal is to create a distinctive "path" for site participation so that citizenship is not conflated with anything but recognition of a good, active and well behave poster.
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The purpose of the citizenship concept is to promote activity. The Senator Class serves same conceptual function; it promotes activity in both staff and in the Curia. In general all forums do the same thing. The other day i receive a "badge" for using "@" in my response to a post.
    And herein lies your problem, there is no activity to stir. A badge will not get people to come back to the forum if they're not doing so already.
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Settra, that is not the purpose of this proposal.
    The Board of citizens is designed to promote citizenship, thus activity. This proposal is ensure that there is a clear delineation between those that desire to have a greater say in the operations of the site and those that see citizenship as a means to promote activity.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Settra, that is not the purpose of this proposal.
    Well, maybe it should be. "Cart besides the horse" is no better than "Cart before the horse". Establish the activity and in the miracle that the proposal passes, have its evidence of working sustain further developments.

    Work on stronger site activity, then work on curial activity, then promote your niches. Ideally the structure in more key sections is reorganized and tuned in order for site activity promotion to work on wider audiences, but I digress. I know this idea will fall on deaf ears, but perhaps someone else will take heed of the order of operations involved here.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Well, maybe it should be. "Cart besides the horse" is no better than "Cart before the horse". Establish the activity and in the miracle that the proposal passes, have its evidence of working sustain further developments.

    Work on stronger site activity, then work on curial activity, then promote your niches. Ideally the structure in more key sections is reorganized and tuned in order for site activity promotion to work on wider audiences, but I digress. I know this idea will fall on deaf ears, but perhaps someone else will take heed of the order of operations involved here.
    The analogy doesn't fit in this case. As I noted already, the proposal serves a more important role of delineating citizenship or perhaps more accurately delimiting the concept or scope. The goal is to create a system that will promote continuity of that concept and scope. To do otherwise will most likely have the same results. To iterates the complaints; most object to citizenship because they see it has political. by creating a Senate class, you remove that notion. It will be a one path one could choose. The other being contribution that led to citizenship in the first place (assuming it isn't through staff work).
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Creation of the Senator Class Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The analogy doesn't fit in this case. As I noted already, the proposal serves a more important role of delineating citizenship or perhaps more accurately delimiting the concept or scope. The goal is to create a system that will promote continuity of that concept and scope. To do otherwise will most likely have the same results. To iterates the complaints; most object to citizenship because they see it has political. by creating a Senate class, you remove that notion. It will be a one path one could choose. The other being contribution that led to citizenship in the first place (assuming it isn't through staff work).
    Do you really think that a Senator class will bring back citizens to the forums and in particular to both Curia and staff?

    What makes you believe that? For what reason, I mean if you think this Senator class proposal will do that, especially when almost everyone of your previous proposals failed to pass the Curia.

    C'mon, Pike give us a break and stop repeating the same thing over and over again. Why not come up with something totally different that might intrests people e.g new design on the homepage for instance?
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