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Thread: Board of Citizens Proposal

  1. #21
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The fact that you define citizenship as being a ratio of the general membership is the essence of the problem..
    I didn't do that at all, so I didn't bother to continue reading your post.

    Thank you for the reminder, good luck in your attention search.

  2. #22
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Is it even necessary for me to explain how this proposal misses 2/3rds of the point it professes to address and is an inefficient way of achieving the last third?

    Fundamentally, my issues remain the same. I've nothing against drives to boost the site and its various sections. I would prescribe multiple courses for each section of the site with a few exceptions (curia being one of them because it's frankly difficult to find a place for it in the wider vision) that I feel would make the operation of various sections nicer. What I would avoid is the addition of architecture showing the exact same degree of flaws as what came before, resulting in the same situation with a new coat of paint.

    This is best suited as an independent structure drawn from willing current members who look around, find people who fit, and band together to lend good arguments and support in patronizing a user through the system now. It's not a terribly long time to do that and the only people who would stall are poo coated in whipped cream, which I would imagine is unlikely to appear.
    Last edited by Dismounted Feudal Knight; October 16, 2019 at 05:49 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Is it even necessary for me to explain how this proposal misses 2/3rds of the point it professes to address and is an inefficient way of achieving the last third?
    There is actually only one goal. The primary purpose is to reinvigorate by having a small select group for citizens committed to citizenship to seek out and promote members to citizenship. This is how citizenship was granted originally. The first group was successful, there is no reason to assume the second group. The only concern raised and I do agree with it, is that it may not encourage other members to patronize. However, in the past, when one person applies, there is usually at least one more to follow. A group that is successful and is promoting members to citizenship may have an indirect knock-on effect. Moreover, I stated later that reinvigorate also means promoting citizenship, this could be done by encourages new citizens to pay it forward in three months time.

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Fundamentally, my issues remain the same. I've nothing against drives to boost the site and its various sections. I would prescribe multiple courses for each section of the site with a few exceptions (curia being one of them because it's frankly difficult to find a place for it in the wider vision) that I feel would make the operation of various sections nicer. What I would avoid is the addition of architecture showing the exact same degree of flaws as what came before, resulting in the same situation with a new coat of paint.

    This is best suited as an independent structure drawn from willing current members who look around, find people who fit, and band together to lend good arguments and support in patronizing a user through the system now. It's not a terribly long time to do that and the only people who would stall are poo coated in whipped cream, which I would imagine is unlikely to appear.
    As it been stated many times, attempting to assign a "place" for citizenship has been an abysmal failure. It was never intended to be a pseudo government per, but rather a tool to promote good postings and ideal behavior. Patronages have had a steep decline for the past 5 years and a steady decline for a longer period than that. It is not going to suddenly reverse its course. If you do not understand why something fail, it will never be fixed. It is entirely possible that a patronage system regardless how you define citizenship will ultimately fail and a permanent committee is the only sure way to ensure its continuity. However, I would like to offer Hitai some hope. I am willing to see if we can keep citizenship what it was meant to be, maybe members will see it worthy to pay it forward.

  4. #24
    La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham's Avatar Artifex♔Duffer♔Civitate
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    I came for the modding but stayed for the port and stilton, I'll have you know, and many fought long and hard to oust the Cdec and anything remotely like a committee, its has been proven that it doesnt work, people become power crazy and it is prone to cronyism. Thats not to say we didnt have shining examples and Cdec members who embodied the spirit of the Curia mind.
    Sadly I have seen a "wolf pack mentality" going on in the past.wot wot!

    "No problem can withstand the assault of sustained Dufferism"

  5. #25
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Noticed I forgot to follow up on this. There isn't much to say really, as I don't expect progress. I'll simply follow up regarding my own approach to things and the closest reply to it to be found in the response.
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    As it been stated many times, attempting to assign a "place" for citizenship has been an abysmal failure.
    A place in my definition forever is the role of a particular feature or thing in the bigger picture of a site's operation. By this metric, not having vision of a place makes a function entirely frivolous to a site's operation, making the entire function, the concept of citizenship in this case, pointless. I doubt that's what you intended to imply.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham View Post
    I came for the modding but stayed for the port and stilton, I'll have you know, and many fought long and hard to oust the Cdec and anything remotely like a committee, its has been proven that it doesnt work, people become power crazy and it is prone to cronyism. Thats not to say we didnt have shining examples and Cdec members who embodied the spirit of the Curia mind.
    Sadly I have seen a "wolf pack mentality" going on in the past.wot wot!
    What power? The group is only one way for members to become citizens. The current system will remain intact unchanged. CdeC is a poor example. They were gatekeepers; the Board is looking for embers to walk through an open gate. The group, in my opinion, should be limited to one year intervals, requiring approval each year. The goal is get the "engine" going again.

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Noticed I forgot to follow up on this. There isn't much to say really, as I don't expect progress. I'll simply follow up regarding my own approach to things and the closest reply to it to be found in the response.
    A place in my definition forever is the role of a particular feature or thing in the bigger picture of a site's operation. By this metric, not having vision of a place makes a function entirely frivolous to a site's operation, making the entire function, the concept of citizenship in this case, pointless. I doubt that's what you intended to imply.
    Citizenship role is to promote the site with goal posting and ideal behavior. That is its "place." Anything more than that has proven to be an abysmal failure. Years of deviating from the original path has been detrimental. I do not understand why you want to give citizenship something more than it needs to be. This is why I created the Senate class so that citizenship never again become more than what it should be. People should desire citizenship has recognition from the site of their behavior and good postings. They won't care about anything else. Right now, there are members who think citizenship is some sort of site political role-play or worse, a bloated awards committee.

  7. #27
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    fact is, what you propose goes exactly against this idea, because a) it does not add any value for non-citizens, but rather just gives something different to do to actual citizens (why a board should make citizenship more desirable to people who actually refused to be patronized till today?/) and b) add another layer of elitism, because you pretend to split citizens between those who can vote and those who cannot (look, no matter how good these board citizens are.. I know you don't see it like me, but the CdeC was seen as an elitist group, and thus was removed).
    That.
    I am not a citizen, I don't want to be a citizen and such a board doesn't help, on the very contrary makes me think that some elitists think more elitism is the answer to elitism.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    That.
    I am not a citizen, I don't want to be a citizen and such a board doesn't help, on the very contrary makes me think that some elitists think more elitism is the answer to elitism.
    The purpose of the board is to redefine citizenship to its original intent, which is the very opposite of elitism. Citizenship was never meant to be "exclusive" but that is exactly what has happened. The board is thus design to promote any member who exhibit good posting and ideal behavior. I would add one of the essential task of the board is to help define citizenship in sch a way that it would never slide into artificially and unnecessary high standards of contribution. This is what the large awards is for.

  9. #29
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The purpose of the board is to redefine citizenship to its original intent, which is the very opposite of elitism. Citizenship was never meant to be "exclusive" but that is exactly what has happened.
    Neither of those statements are true. Citizenship was very elitist and exclusive, it took years of chipping away at the institutional self-aggrandising bollocks to strip away those traits. Then (Asterix, WBK and Spiff) created the CdeC and took us back to the same horse crap squabbling over 'standards' that screwed the curia in it's early days. Both Asty and Bill later disowned the CdeC btw.

    Funny how you keep missing the facts when it comes to trying to promote another harebrained version of the CdeC. It's almost as if you think if you keep trying, eventually, their won't be anyone to pull you up on your attempts to rewrite TWC history.

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