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Thread: Board of Citizens Proposal

  1. #1
    PikeStance's Avatar ⚜️ Omnipresent ⚜️
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    Default Board of Citizens Proposal

    Board of Citizens (or some other Latin/ Roman name) Patronus Collegia?


    This is a proposal that is based off the discussion held here some time ago.


    This proposal seeks to reinvigorate the process because the patronage system has stalled. Moreover, citizenship has earned a dubious reputation on the site for being too elitist. It is a goal of the board to make citizenship accessible and desirable for all members. The goal of citizenship is to promote quality posting and ideal behavior.


    There will be three basic paths for citizenship applications.


    The First Application Path is the current method as per Constitution.
    The Second Application Path is through a newly created Board of Citizens. The board is based on the original method in which member were bestowed citizenship.
    The Third Application Path is recommendation letter by a citizen to promote a member to citizen.


    The Board
    The Board of Citizens will consist of citizens. The board may contain between six to eight citizens. The Consul and admin may share insight but may not vote.
    The role of each member of the board is to actively seek out members who have demonstrated their worth through merit, good actions, and worthy discussion, and in doing so enlarge and advance the purpose of this forum.


    The Process of the Second Application Path; citizenship through the board.
    Any board member may put forward any member they deemed suitable for citizenship. The board member will contact the member for interest and then will apply on behalf of the member explaining why they feel the meet the requirements of citizenship. Members will vote and if a 3/4 vote in favor of the member, then the member will become a citizen.


    The Third Application Path
    A member can be put forward by any citizen with an explanation on why they think the member should be a citizen. A board member will then approach the member. If in agreement, the board member will then apply on behalf of the citizen and the member. If a 3/4 vote in favor, then the member will be given citizenship.
    Note: I have been approached on several occasions by citizens who wanted to recommend a member for citizenship. They gave been a general idea on why that person deserves citizenship. My response was to submit in the application, and I see no reason why the application will fail. Well, in every case, the application is never made.

    General Rules
    + Failure to obtain citizens via the board does not exclude the member to be immediately apply through the current method or first application path.
    + There will be a forum within the QP for the board to discuss. This board will be view-able by all members, but only the Consul, Admin and board members may post. Only board members vote.
    + Patronage will remain the same. Board members who apply for a member through he Second Path will be the patron of the member. In the Third Application Path, the board member is applying on behalf of the citizen, so the citizen will be the patron.

    edit
    + The group will have a mandate for just one year from the start of operation. Each year, the Curia must vote to continue or suspend operation.
    Last edited by PikeStance; October 15, 2019 at 10:23 PM.
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    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    I've got an idea for a Latin name you could use. "Consilium de Civitate"




  3. #3
    Flinn's Avatar The Alpha Saint!
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    I've got an idea for a Latin name you could use. "Consilium de Civitate"
    you read my mind, man

    edit: @Pike, I see from where you are coming from, in particular I agree with this

    It is a goal of the board to make citizenship accessible and desirable for all members.
    fact is, what you propose goes exactly against this idea, because a) it does not add any value for non-citizens, but rather just gives something different to do to actual citizens (why a board should make citizenship more desirable to people who actually refused to be patronized till today?/) and b) add another layer of elitism, because you pretend to split citizens between those who can vote and those who cannot (look, no matter how good these board citizens are.. I know you don't see it like me, but the CdeC was seen as an elitist group, and thus was removed).
    Last edited by Flinn; October 14, 2019 at 05:55 AM.
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    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    As before, I like the idea of a board or a CdeC-lite (if only as a mechanism to generate activity), but I still remain opposed to the idea outsourcing patronisation. This proposal doesn't get to the root of the problem. If citizens see a member they think would make a good citizen, why are they not patronising them themselves? We need to make better patrons, not shift the 'burden' onto others. You are trying to tackle a symptom, rather than a cause.

  5. #5
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Moreover, citizenship has earned a dubious reputation
    This has something to do with the respectless posting behavior of some citizens, which seems to have no consequences for them.

    And it has virtually no consequences by the curia for them.

    If they face consequences, they are enforced solely by Administration.

    For non-citizens it seems like:

    Hawks will not pick out hawks' eyes.

    Citizenship should be the goldstandard of good manners, no massproduct of a comittee.

    The less activity in some sections of the site, for example mupit, has something to do with the hostile enviroment there.

    The missing activity isn't caused by not enough citizen applications.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; October 14, 2019 at 07:27 AM.

  6. #6
    Flinn's Avatar The Alpha Saint!
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Sylva View Post
    This has something to do with the respectless posting behavior of some citizens, which seems to have no consequences for them.

    And it has virtually no consequences by the curia for them.

    If they face consequences, they are enforced solely by Administration.


    For non-citizens it seems like:

    Hawks will not pick out hawks' eyes.

    Citizenship should be the goldstandard of good manners, no massproduct of a comittee.
    I was always against the actual idea of "higher standards" and always openly told that, and the reason is simple: there are NO higher standards for citizens and if anything, the Curia in itself (meaning the Curial fora) showed a much lower standard than other places (a lot of personal references, plenty of disruptive posting, not so veiled offences, etc).. for the most this stuff has been ignored or simply brought to a delete of one or two lines, with no moderation consequences..) all of this for the sake of allowing "people to discuss"..
    I remember a case of a citizen who got an infraction because he came to the PH&A in pursue of another member and he told him to "go to kill himself".. now this is a rather serious thing to say, and if you consider that it was posted in the PH&A fora where people comes to ask for personal advice, it was even more serious.. it was worth a suspension minimum, if not an outright ban from citizenship.. well, it was treated as a "censure" .. I don't blame those who delivered the judgement, but the system..

    this is the idea I made myself about this system: in the past Citizenship was the most appealing trait of TWC, I mean in which other website of 15 years ago you could participate actively in the administration of the same?? therefore, people was stimulated to become citizen, and most of those were debaters rather than modders (staffers started to become viable candidates much later) who were more prone to incur in infractions because debating is just so... people struggled to get to citizenship sometimes, and so the "higher standard" were never really applied, because everybody can have a burn out or a crazy moment when they get an infraction and straightly removing them from citizenship (which I would really consider higher standards) wasn't fair.. therefore the system got weaker and weaker, basically only those who have been banned by the site because of other stuff are removed from the citizenship group as well as those citizens who make the request to be removed themselves

    Point is: the idea of higher standard is appealing when you are coming into the Curia, but becomes an issue when you are in.. therefore the tendency over the years was to not to apply them, because the main goal was to attract people and not repel them or scary them... I can only feel sympathy for people like Carmen Sylva, who have all the skills and merits to become citizens plus probably the will to further contribute to TWC in that position, which are strongly against the Curia just because of its hypocrisy.. from inside it's hard to see it, from outside is much easier.. from the Hex position it was always very evident to me what was wrong about how the Curia is perceived internally and externally.

    If one wants to revive the Curia, he has to see it from outside and not inside, admit what TWC is today, admit who has the rule and work together with them, rather than pretending to create an insulated area whose purposes and goals only end in themselves.
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  7. #7
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    It is rather disappointing to have contributed to the Curia (in this case meaning the forum, not all of the citizens)) in the past years, only to discover now that I was and to some degree still are, part of a group of hypocrites. Also I am somewhat astonished about the comment that the higher standards, elusive as they may be, were not applied. Especially since I, acting as Censor, have taken part in the voting for several removal of Citizenship cases that indeed resulted in a removal. Besides that, from my rather extensive period of being a Censor, I noticed that it is only a small part of the Citizenry that actually earns itself an infraction. Repeat offences were, and probably still are, quite common though.

    As for the proposal, I think it's flogging a dead horse. I see no reason why people that do not patronise now, would suddenly start doing so because of the proposed changes, as Hitai already mentioned. Furthermore I believe that next to attracting a few genuinely interested people, it would be quite popular among those who want to gain some status, without necessarily contributing much, if anything. Having said that, of course I have no Crystal bowl that shows me the future, it's just what I expect to happen.

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    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    As Hitai argued, the task of the Board seems rather meaningless. Even if, for some reason, certain citizens are not willing to patronise the member whose contributions he found exceptional, he's still allowed to notify another citizen about the opportunity, without having been elected to the committee. The Board simply serves no purpose whatsoever, unless the goal is to artificially generate activity. However, I doubt that it will rejuvenate the Curia in the long term or that adding an extra level of bureaucracy will worth the effort. Moreover, the fact that the threshold for admission is actually much higher than that of normal applications (at least three quarters of the total number of votes being favourable as opposed to 60% of the non-abstaining votes) means that there would be absolutely zero incentive for the candidate to choose a more difficult path, which does not offer any more advantages than the alternative option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Having said that, of course I have no Crystal bowl that shows me the future, it's just what I expect to happen.
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    Van Zandt's Avatar pulvis et umbra
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    In general, I believe the formation of a group dedicated to increasing the citizenship applications is a good idea. At the current time there is essentially no activity at all in this area so I say lets give it a try. This would not be another "CDEC", as the only task here would be to round-up prospective citizens.

    As we have reached a point of virtual inertia here, I would suggest a "coalition of the willing" and perhaps the formation of an informal group whose goal would mirror those proposed here by Pikestance. The overall aim to increase citizenship applications is a just and noble one that we should all aspire too.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    I'll keep it short and sweet for now:

    I don't necessarily think the idea is a bad one, or the presence of any form of a "cdec-lite" as it's been called (I guess when I was patronized way back when it was actually through this sort of process too, so it isn't really a bad way to go about it). I think at first glance the issue is just that this requires more people doing more things. And we have had a severe lack of people to do such things as of late. Magistrate and Praefect elections taking as long as they have, even without my own delays in the elections, should be evidence of that. Even if we could get this many citizens together to do this job right now, I don't think it is going to have much more of an impact, if any at all, than citizens out and about on their own looking for and patronizing members. I understand your sentiment of the citizen body as a whole getting better at patronizing, and patronizing more overall, however I think without the proper balance of citizens also wanting to do more beyond that, and be more active in various areas, it would go nowhere.

  11. #11
    PikeStance's Avatar ⚜️ Omnipresent ⚜️
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Ok, I am not going to address point by point of the objections but rather discuss the underlying objections I am reading.

    The essence of the proposal is reinvigorate citizenship as a desirable thing. Now, rather or not it works is debatable obviously, but ding nothing will do nothing to improve the situation given the trend I demonstrated on the linked discussion.
    One of th things I did not include is that board should face a "recertifcation" each year. If the board ever become "desirable" to be on my more than 8 people, then it might be time to end the board since it would have serve its purpose. The board is meant to only "jumpstart" the current patronization process. In the beginning, citizenship was granted through a similar committee. In time, citizens wanted the right to "patronize" citizens and the patroinization was born. However, as noted, that system is no longer operating.

    Just to emphasize the point, there is no "elitist" status being the board. it will be voluntary only! I do not want elections or close appointments nor do I want repetitive discussion on citizenship standards. It is precisely that sort of discussion that led to elitism in the first place. The standards are basic as they are meant to encourage good posting and if you can be on good behavior (which really the only "higher standard") necessary. if this is concern, then harsher penalties for violating the ToS by citizens would be a better option. As citizens, you are de facto representing the "best" of the site.

    Finally the board is not meant to add bureaucracy, but to steamline the process to make it easier to become a citizen for "deserving" members. It is a stretch to say that people do not patronize because they do not value their citizenship. As I noted, I have had several citizens approach me about members they thought were deserving, but they do not have the time to write a full application. This is the motivation behind the "Third Path." I feel it is important that they are still recognized as the "patron" of the member. In regard to the second path, the ease and simplistically of the process is intended to make it easier to promote members, not make it easier for members undeserving of citizenship. The patronizing is intact.

    I didn't want to bogged down this discussion with too many ideas, but I would also like to have level awards for patronization which have been proposed several times the most recent being done by Mega some time ago. We give bling for just aout everything else but this. Then again, I have no idea if the bling would encourage patronization, but it may not be a bad idea to give it a shot as well.

    Just one final note; this is not a CdeC board and t would be in bad taste to call this board that. The board is about opening the gate to deserving members, not acting as "gatekeepers."
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  12. #12
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Could you explain the difference between naturalisation method 1 and 3?

    It sounds to be the largely the same only with slight other words.

    Edit:

    If method 3 shall only be a simplified application letter for patrons, why not simple rework the constitutional method 1 to that?

    If patrons still want to "slain" the reader with a wall of text they could still write one.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; October 15, 2019 at 02:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    The solution to all of your problems is to make me citizen. I can be very patronising.

    Commissar Caligula, Diamat, etc... Maybe one of you? I promise to be a pain in the dough.

    Edit: Oh maybe I should start with the patronising pain-in-the-dough quality posting now:

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    Last edited by Cookiegod; October 15, 2019 at 03:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Sylva View Post
    Could you explain the difference between naturalisation method 1 and 3?

    It sounds to be the largely the same only with slight other words.

    Edit:

    If method 3 shall only be a simplified application letter for patrons, why not simple rework the constitutional method 1 to that?

    If patrons still want to "slain" the reader with a wall of text they could still write one.
    Sure,

    Method 1 is the current application process now. A patron approaches a member asked if they are interested in Citizenship. The Patron then have the member write a paragraph which includes but not limited to what brought them to TWC, why they want to be a citizen and in what way have the contributed to the community. The patron would also write a paragraph by explaining why they think the member should be a citizen by detailing or outlining* their contribution. * Generally, I write a general outline of contribution and have the applicant write a more detail account, but other patrons do it differently. Additionally, the Patron needs to contact Moderation Hex about the standing of the member and inform the Consul of their intended application. This is a lengthy process that most do wish to do.

    In method 3 it allows the patron and applicant less of a burden. As I said in the OP, I have had a number of people write to me about a member they feel should be a citizen. The message itself is good enough (IMO) for an application and I have said as much in my communication with them. In every case they walk away happy and content to apply, but I said, the application never happens. I should note, in many cases the applicant also messages me as well. Method 3 is meant to make the process easier. That initial communication outlining the applicants contribution will e used. The applicant wold just need to answer why they want to be a citizen. During the initial application in the board, the moderation record can be checked.

    To be honest, we could and probably should create a simple template that is less burdensome than the current "expectations." I put it in quotes because thee isn't really a minimal standard except what have bee traditionally done over time. However, if this proposal is passed, I would anticipate that 80-85% of the application will be through Path 2. About 10-15% via Path 1 and only about 5-10% via Path 3. I think overtime, Path 3 and Path 1 numbers will flip flop before Path 2 becomes unnecessary. At least, that is what I am anticipating.
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    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The essence of the proposal is reinvigorate citizenship as a desirable thing.
    But this proposal doesn't do that. Just adding more citizens doesn't solve the overarching existential crisis citizenship has been undergoing these past few years. Yes, arguably more citizens might bring more ideas, but (and we've had this discussion so many times now that I've lost count) this doesn't answer the question of why current citizens are so disillusioned (and why others across the site are disillusioned with us). We've seen time and time again new citizens earning their stripes, then swiftly declining the engage further with their citizenship. Streamlining patronisation in order to recruit more citizens doesn't solve anything. As above, the question of why citizens don't want to patronise, and why non-citizens don't want to be patronised, isn't necessarily or entirely because the current process is too arduous (because it really isn't). If people 'don't have enough time' to patronise, then that means they don't care enough to find the time. This proposal doesn't make them care about citizenship again, instead it reinforces and rewards their apathy.

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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    But this proposal doesn't do that. Just adding more citizens doesn't solve the overarching existential crisis citizenship has been undergoing these past few years. Yes, arguably more citizens might bring more ideas, but (and we've had this discussion so many times now that I've lost count) this doesn't answer the question of why current citizens are so disillusioned (and why others across the site are disillusioned with us). We've seen time and time again new citizens earning their stripes, then swiftly declining the engage further with their citizenship. Streamlining patronisation in order to recruit more citizens doesn't solve anything. As above, the question of why citizens don't want to patronise, and why non-citizens don't want to be patronised, isn't necessarily or entirely because the current process is too arduous (because it really isn't). If people 'don't have enough time' to patronise, then that means they don't care enough to find the time. This proposal doesn't make them care about citizenship again, instead it reinforces and rewards their apathy.
    Hitai,
    The myth of citizenship is that citizens needs to engage in the site. Citizenship is about promoting good postings. The minute citizenship becomes about "awarding," or "engaging in site politics" it becomes something arduous indeed. As I intimated in the OP it will be the role of the board to stress what citizenship is and what it means for the site. So, it deals with the issue indirectly by actively re-defining citizenship to its essence. The problem that has developed is that less and less citizens are patronizing. In essence, less members are citizens and thus to have an "exclusive club of members" which was never the intentions. As were noted by others, the perception of citizenship is a negative one and the only way to do that is to reach out to the community at large. A modest size "committee" promoting the site and the concept of citizenship would be a positive step. I make NO guarantee that the board would eventually be unnecessary only that I hope it will be in time. Citizenship not valued as uch as we would like, but the best chance we have to change that perception is to a committed outreach to show that the site value worthy members contributions.
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    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Hitai,
    The myth of citizenship is that citizens needs to engage in the site. Citizenship is about promoting good postings. The minute citizenship becomes about "awarding," or "engaging in site politics" it becomes something arduous indeed. As I intimated in the OP it will be the role of the board to stress what citizenship is and what it means for the site. So, it deals with the issue indirectly by actively re-defining citizenship to its essence. The problem that has developed is that less and less citizens are patronizing. In essence, less members are citizens and thus to have an "exclusive club of members" which was never the intentions. As were noted by others, the perception of citizenship is a negative one and the only way to do that is to reach out to the community at large. A modest size "committee" promoting the site and the concept of citizenship would be a positive step. I make NO guarantee that the board would eventually be unnecessary only that I hope it will be in time. Citizenship not valued as uch as we would like, but the best chance we have to change that perception is to a committed outreach to show that the site value worthy members contributions.
    Well if that's what you feel citizenship is or should be, then that is fair enough I suppose, although it's upsetting to hear nevertheless - especially given the past positions you've taken on this matter. I agree with you otherwise; we should have community outreach, we should promote the site and citizenship, and we should show that we do value good, honest contributions (and a committee to oversee these things isn't a bad idea either), but I fear we're walking different roads this time. That said, I'm not all too optimistic there is much hope left anyway.

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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Hitai,

    If citizenship is something where the expectations are that you take an active role in the site, then what will be created ( have been created) is a cadre. The Curia thing for citizens were only mean to be (as we say in New Orleans) lagniappe, not the raison d'etre of citizenship. If a cadre is what you want, then creating an higher "class" would be the route to go. There, you have admittance based on site participation in staff or through betterment through participation within the Curia itself. Connecting citizenship to site politics have been detrimental to citizenship and to the site at large.
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  19. #19
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    I don't know what the problem is to be solved. Citizens are just people who have done something to deserve such award (no image problem afaik) and the curia works perfectly (zero image problem) with the only "problem" that there are fewer and fewer users and therefore less citizens too to occupy some positions. Something quite natural. Edit: Right now 48 users of which six have a colored name. Not a bad ratio in my opinion.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 15, 2019 at 01:05 PM.

  20. #20
    PikeStance's Avatar ⚜️ Omnipresent ⚜️
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    Default Re: Board of Citizens Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I don't know what the problem is to be solved. Citizens are just people who have done something to deserve such award (no image problem afaik) and the curia works perfectly (zero image problem) with the only "problem" that there are fewer and fewer users and therefore less citizens too to occupy some positions. Something quite natural. Edit: Right now 48 users of which six have a colored name. Not a bad ratio in my opinion.
    The fact that you define citizenship as being a ratio of the general membership is the essence of the problem. It was never meant to be an "exclusive" group but that is exactly what it has become. If within the general membership 80% meet the requirements of citizenship then 80% ought to be citizens. That would be great for the site. That would mean that 80% of the members are making good posts and behaving in an acceptable manner. That will really promote the site as a friendly and welcoming site. If this inst what we want, then there is something wrong.
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