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Thread: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

  1. #141
    Cookiegod's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    The length you go to filter everything so it adheres to your confirmation bias is simply astonishing.
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  2. #142
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    - Film critics do their job as honestly as they can.
    - Some very noisy guys attack any film that they believe threatens their perfect world or interpret that any movie is a nod to them (things that, with nuances, has always happened).

    I am the one with the elaborate theories or is it someone else?

  3. #143

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    - Film critics do their job as honestly as they can.
    - Some very noisy guys attack any film that they believe threatens their perfect world or interpret that any movie is a nod to them (things that, with nuances, has always happened).

    I am the one with the elaborate theories or is it someone else?
    When pwople of both the right and left of the political spectrum complain about film cricits, that implies it is a lot more than just a few noisy people whining as you imply.

    I suggest you look at my Bill Maher link on his defense of "I Feel Pretty" movie, and his lambasting the critics. When you cricize a movie based on his a trailer, which cricis have done, the movirle critics forfeit all claim.ro objectivity.

    Is it all critics? No. Is it a lot, and seeming growing in number of movie critics who are influence by more by their ideology than the actual quality of the movie? Yes.

    So far you have engaged in ad hominem criticisms that you fail to support with any real facts to justify your claim. Calling people incel doesn't proven their criticisms wrong, nor are you justified in calling people "incels" when you know nothing about them other than you simply don't like what they say.

    Tell me how Bill Maher is an incel, with actual facts based on his actions to back up your claim.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    When pwople of both the right and left of the political spectrum complain about film cricits, that implies it is a lot more than just a few noisy people whining as you imply.

    I suggest you look at my Bill Maher link on his defense of "I Feel Pretty" movie, and his lambasting the critics. When you cricize a movie based on his a trailer, which cricis have done, the movirle critics forfeit all claim.ro objectivity.

    Is it all critics? No. Is it a lot, and seeming growing in number of movie critics who are influence by more by their ideology than the actual quality of the movie? Yes.
    Your only basis for supporting this argument is that Bill Maher is a leftist? By the way, sory but I have always heard that he is a true idiot, I will not waste my time watching that video, I have zero interest in knowing his opinion about anything.
    Are you really telling me that people from both left and right are criticizing film critics because they are progressive / leftist and supposedly just because of that they (according to you a lot of them) support any "progressive" movie?


    So far you have engaged in ad hominem criticisms that you fail to support with any real facts to justify your claim. Calling people incel doesn't proven their criticisms wrong, nor are you justified in calling people "incels" when you know nothing about them other than you simply don't like what they say.

    Tell me how Bill Maher is an incel, with actual facts based on his actions to back up your claim.
    Quote me saying that anyone who likes Joker is an incel. Quote me making unfounded accusations, and I will answer you.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Hey mishkin, contradictions keep stacking. Please clarify the latest ones:
    1) You: "alienated men with lack of social skills" = must all universally be right wing incels.
    Also you: "People who have difficulty having sex and incels are two different things. [...] Celibates exist on the left too."
    Well which one is it? Can't have it both ways.

    2) When I stated the movie "addressed relevant societal issues", your reaction since has been to repeatedly insist that it MUST be about incels.
    ...Then you also state this: "I have said it before, Joker might not be a political movie [...]"
    Well again, which one is it? On the one hand you absolutely insist it must be about incels, on the other you concede the movie might not be political? Choose.
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  6. #146

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    - Film critics do their job as honestly as they can.
    - Some very noisy guys attack any film that they believe threatens their perfect world or interpret that any movie is a nod to them (things that, with nuances, has always happened).

    I am the one with the elaborate theories or is it someone else?
    While i do get where you come from, i think this is a bit misplaced in this case.
    I read what the mainstream mídia have been saying about the joker, even before it open in theaters, during, and after. They have been quite fearmongering to say the least without cause. I mean Stuff like ABC, CNN, Rolling Stones, NWT, the Atlantic etc. ( not to mention Vox and Vice news)
    If its them doing the best they can? or is them being sensationalist? I read what they wrote, and it is ridiculous. They created a bubble of fear out of nowhere, that in lots of theaters in the US, everyone entering a theater was pat down by Police.

    This is not normal, imo.

    Also we do live in an age, where shills and corporate pandering is rampant in the audio visual content critic, scene. It is weird to hear somebody say that movie critics do the best they can. While that isn't the usual record at all, generally speaking anyway.

    Btw i do not think this is an issue of left vs right. I mean this film as is if it came out 10 years a go, or so, there wouldn't be a single issue being raised because of it.
    Glorifies violence? And it is a dangerous movie? lol give me a break. So any Tarantino Movie. Rambo movie etc.
    ( I do not think the Joker does it though). But whatever it isn't an excuse.
    The only thing that inspired was people going to the Bronx taking stair pictures.....

    At any case, the Joker just became the Most Profitable Comic Book Movie Of All Time, which is funny considering, the film is quite far removed from the usual comic book movie scene. Basically is just a Drama/Thriller. Who also won a Venetian Golden Lion so far. All this despite the toxic controversy, created by the media and critics.

    https://www.indiewire.com/2019/11/jo...ce-1202188266/
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; November 10, 2019 at 03:42 AM.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    I read what the mainstream mídia have been saying about the joker, even before it open in theaters, during, and after. They have been quite fearmongering to say the least without cause. I mean Stuff like ABC, CNN, Rolling Stones, NWT, the Atlantic etc. ( not to mention Vox and Vice news)
    If its them doing the best they can? or is them being sensationalist? I read what they wrote, and it is ridiculous. They created a bubble of fear out of nowhere, that in lots of theaters in the US, everyone entering a theater was pat down by Police.

    This is not normal, imo.
    Can you add links to the stuff you are talking about? I only remember a couple of alarmist comments that were inmedately rejected for being considered stupid.

    I have re-read this, Joker's first reactions. Dont know mate, just found some references to "the film's toxicity", nothing else, no fearmongering.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 10, 2019 at 05:53 AM.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I don't think the film has any "toxicity". It more than likely has less politics than films which go out of their way to be pro-whatever in trolling manner.
    It doesn't matter if it happens to influence some copy-cat action either. Goethe's novela about Wurther afaik led to some readers committing suicide, like its protagonist. Wurther isn't among Goethe's best works in the first place, but that doesn't mean he is responsible for such events. Sometimes art is better suited to present an Erlkoenig, not some dumb story about racial or sexual minorities which do stuff just to sell as a pro racial or sexual minority project

    Edit: Furthermore, as has been noted, the original version of this movie was to be exactly about a simplification of feminism and have the black girl be really in a sexual relationship with the Joker (and be the subject of sexist attacks). It is good the script got altered later on, cause imo the end-result would have been (even) worse than the ok (but imo nothing to speak about) Joker movie as it now is.
    Last edited by Kyriakos; November 10, 2019 at 10:23 AM.
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  9. #149
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Mishkin why do you have the hots for incels? And when were they ever relevant with regards to film reviews?
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  10. #150
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Mishkin why do you have the hots for incels?
    I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your question. If you mean why I don't like them, I think I have already provided information about what kind of people they are (retrograde snowfalkes). Any problem with my attitude towards them?
    And when were they ever relevant with regards to film reviews?
    As far as I know their first campaign was against the saga you talk about in your opening post (I think I have mentioned here how they flloded Rotten Tomatoes with negative reviews), I could be wrong.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 10, 2019 at 02:52 PM.

  11. #151

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Your only basis for supporting this argument is that Bill Maher is a leftist? By the way, sory but I have always heard that he is a true idiot, I will not waste my time watching that video, I have zero interest in knowing his opinion about anything
    ��

    So you judge a person by what others say about them, instead of making up you own mind? Sounds like you are not interested in facts, but have already made up your own mind, and can't be bothered to determine the validity not others opinion for yourself? OK.

    Unlike many on the left, Bill is willing to hold the left to the same standards he holdsrhr right, and many on the left don't like that.

    Are you really telling me that people from both left and right are criticizing film critics because they are progressive / leftist and supposedly just because of that they (according to you a lot of them) support any "progressive" movie?
    Yes, people from both the right and honest people of the left have been complaining about film critics because film critics are judging movies based on their beliefs, rather than the quality of the movie itself.

    Quote me saying that anyone who likes Joker is an incel. Quote me making unfounded accusations, and I will answer you.
    You show me where I ever claimed you were calling anyone who liked the Joker movie an incel. I never said that, nor did imply it anything I said to you.

    I did say you were calling those who criticized movie critics incels, and if you weren't, then why did you bring up.thr term "incel".in the first place? You most certainly were implying those criticizing film critics were incels, otherwise you would not have brought up the term "incel".

    It is a sleazy technique to refuse to answer something unless I give an example of what I never said.. As I said, everything you have said is always based on accusation unsupported by actual evidence. As typical, you claimed fhat you heard Bill Maher was an idiot. Did you peovide.any actual examples to support your claim about Bill Maher? Of course not.. Did you even provide a source where you heard But Maher was an idiot? Of course not, this proving what I said about you, thst you make accusations without actually providing any real evidence to support your claims.

  12. #152
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    So you judge a person by what others say about them, instead of making up you own mind?
    I have limited time, my apologies for not watching your favorite videos, ignoring stupidities or not responding when someone is clearly dishonest misunderstanding my comments just to "win the discussion".

    PS: Congratulations, whatever you stance was on this discussion, you won.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 11, 2019 at 01:52 AM.

  13. #153

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I have limited time, my apologies for not watching your favorite videos, ignoring stupidities or not responding when someone is clearly dishonest misunderstanding my comments just to "win the discussion".
    I would like to point out that watching a 6 minute video hardly represents a a great commitment of time. You have responded as I thought you would, by attacking te character od the person rather than their arguments. I am still waiting to you peovide actual evidence to support ànything you claim


    PS: Congratulations, whatever you stance was on this discussion, you won.
    It is nice of you to acknowledge you were wro in the discussion. Since you process not to know what my stance is, you can only be acknowledging you were wrong in what you said. It would be nice if the movie critics you admire so much were also as willinging to admit they were wrong. Thanks.

  14. #154

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I'm half way through this thread but wanted to post before I forget (hard seeing things weeks old after the conversation has moved on).

    Rey is a Mary Sue, I haven't come across anyone with a valid argument she's not. I had to walk out of The Force Awakens, or should I say drunkenly stumbled? I have seen it in whole once, along with TLJ. I've watched some reviews praising them, but mostly ones hating it, which are mostly Star Wars fans. I'm not a Star Wars fan, didn't see one till my girlfriend in high made me, haven't seen Rogue One. I do pretentiously consider myself a film making snob, 4 years of high school broadcasting and film making, and a year of college. Rian Johnson does not like Star Wars or its fans, I have seen an interview where when he was asked in a friendly matter sitting next to Mark Hamill whether after time had passed and people had a chance to cool down if he thought at least some negative critiques of the film had some validity. In a flash he said no. He was sitting next to Mark Hamill, who he knows has opening criticized him and his script, in like every interview.

    TLJ takes place right after Deathplanet was destroyed. Which means she's only known Chewie for a couple of days, somehow knows Wookie even though I wouldn't think her planet would have a high demand for WSL (Wookie as a second language). Whatever nerd! Right? When Rey and Chewie arrive on Luke's island, Chewie breaks down the door to Luke's house. Rey then proceeds to translate what Chewie says to Luke. Think about that for a minute while I move on. According to Disney, Rey is more powerful than Palpatine, so she can destroy the First Order by herself. If there's no tension, there's no stakes, but okay Disney, if you want to take on the Superman problem, I hope you understand what you're doing. According to Rian, Disney didn't know what they were doing and had no story outline for the trilogy for him to write the 2nd film around.

    “And I would say, by the way, on the marketing expense side, don’t expect much. I’m thinking that maybe I should just tweet, ‘It’s opening,’ and that will be enough. I think we’re going to end up with incredibly popular and in-demand product with these two new lands.” -- Bob Iger on the new Star Wars sections of their theme parks
    He was so convinced of his own greatness and of Star Wars fans patheticness, he didn't think marketing was important. He expected to put out any product and Star Wars fans to show up any way and spend everything they can. I'll admit that I'd probably never dress up for a movie or Comicon, but some people find it fun. I've also watched some Star Wars announcements events, the way I see some of those people act is disturbing, some crying with joy but some going hysterical and throwing rabid fits. Irregardless, I would never expect I can demean/disrespect a customer by expecting them to give me money no matter what quality of product I put out. The Star Wars Lands are doing horrible, and Disney has been caught cooking the books for at least one park. When The Rise of Skywalker tickets went on sale, Star Wars fans reported that a lot of seats had already been sold and when they looked at all the showings, there was something fishy, and I'm not talking about Admiral Ackbar*.


    https://cosmicbook.news/disney-suspe...r-ticket-sales

    Yeah, if you think that's normal, you're a Disney bot and are playing stooge for Disney for free. Why would I listen to news about record tickets sales from company owned by Disney? Would they report poor ticket sales? Disney is also running defense that they're reshooting significant parts of TROS (movie reshoots are very normal, especially for corporate committee films after test screenings), and have already spent $300M in reshoots. When I was studying film, you could generally ballpark advertising costs to approach the cost of the movie itself, especially for summer action-adventure movies. However that's before comic book movies, the want for the international/Chinese market, and companies started purchasing their own tickets as socially suggestive advertising. "Wow, if the movie is that popular maybe I should see it too?" So it very well may cost upward of $900M. Let's try break it all down to see what's going through the accountants' heads at Disney. I've included domestic home sales, but I don't have the breakdown of profit but let's just say it's all profit because everything is online and the trend in sales is more important than the numbers. Also no toys, Star Wars is all about the toys I know, but they're not selling.

    TFA $245M budget, $500M total, $2B sales - $500M theatre, $200M home, ~$1.2B profit
    ROASWS $200M budget, $400 total, $1B sales - $250M theatre, $85M home, ~$335M profit
    TLJ $210M budget, $420 total, $1.3B sales - $325M theatre, $88M home, ~$665M profit
    SASWS $250+M budget, $400+M total, $400M sales - $50M theatre, $55M home, read ~$80M loss

    Solo is a crap shoot because Disney was circling the wagons and wasn't going to be alerting the media and shareholders how much they really lost. Some sites report $250 total production cost and others $250M initial, $150M reshoots, totaling $400M total production as they nearly refilmed the entire movie, throw in probably $200M advertising costs and even a small 10% theatre cut, and I'm questioning their books, which they cook. My numbers aren't correct, but from 7 to 8, it saw a 33% decline in sales and a very vocal reaction, then less than 6 months later their next movie lost money. Star Wars is a license to print money, Iger decided to not use green ink. Solo's reshoots were suppose to make it better and thus more profitable, but it wasn't part of the Skywalker saga just like Rogue One, which from the first to the second, just like the Disney saga, saw a huge loss in sales. After how much they've insulted the fans, who again make Star Wars the cash cow it is with many repeat viewings and toys, Disney has seen nothing but a backlash. Iger has been "filling in" for Kennedy on decision making. They realized they can actually lose money if they don't produce somethings the fans want.


    Remember when I told you to think about that scene? Luke has known Chewie for over 40 years, why'd she translate what he was saying? In their reunion and with Luke learning of Han's death, she'd be forgotten instantly as the two long time friends grieved. We don't get that scene of Luke processing his friend, murdered by his son who he failed to train properly, who he already was in isolation over. Star Wars fans and even me needed that.

    *Vice-admiral Pink Hair should have been written for Admiral Ackbar. I did a quick rewrite for fun when I was bed ridden after surgery and the final scene he was telling everyone they had to flee, but he was staying. He reassures people over a microphone begging him to reconsider, that he knows what he's doing, he has a plan. We see him walking over to flight controls, the ship completely deserted, the eerie silence makes the pleas over of comm for him to come, much more unsettling. At flight controls, from the back over his shoulder we see a screen with that angry red head general turn on. He insults Ackbar then laughs.

    "You have no chance Resistance/Rebel (Rian uses both) scum. Your New Republic is gone, there is one coming. You are defeated, why are you just delaying the inevitable?"

    In my version Po becomes his right-hand man. He tells Po he has a plan, but won't tell him because he hopes it will not come to that. "For right now Po, we run." Throughout the movie, unbeknownst to Po, Leah and Ackbar groom him for command.

    Po near crying over the comm "Admiral, what are you doing! What's your plan, why are you staying behind?" Po realizes Ackbar isn't coming, that they were just running at first because of what Ackbar's role in the plan meant for himself.

    Ackbar "Because..." [shot of one hand hitting some buttons] "it's..." [shot of the other hand increasing what looks like throttle] "a..." [shot of Ackbar's face then one of Gen. Red not comprehending what Ackbar said] "trap."

    Can't find what I actually wrote and it's not Shakespeare, but no one likes Pink Hair or her pink hair. Ackbar died unceremoniously getting blown into space with Leah. In my version you don't introduce a character who doesn't have much screen time and hope the audience cares enough about her sacrifice. My why gives a cult and meme favorite everywhere a noble send off. Maybe it "rhymes" to much.

    Edit: The light speed ramming was a horrible idea, People in this galaxy have been using light speed for over 10,000 years, if this was possible, how is it only being discovered now? It'd be like when we invented guns we didn't learn we could use them in war for 10,000 years, just using them for hunting.

    Edit 2: Fixed some names (Leah -> Leia, Po -> Poe) and punctuation mistakes.
    Last edited by NorthernXY; November 14, 2019 at 01:54 PM.

  15. #155
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Ok you dont like the last jedi at all and you have thought a lot about it.

  16. #156

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Yes and no. As I said I wanted to be a film maker for a long time, so I watch A LOT of movies as a film maker, breaking them down as I watch them. I ended up being a biochemist (and I have HFA) so my critical thinking skills and attention to detail settings are permanently running at 11. I loved Jurassic Park as a kid, but at 8 I was confused why there suddenly was a huge cliff where the T-rex was just standing and Jackson's arm managed to fall on Dern's shoulder through the pipes behind her (I think Spielberg is hugely overrated). If I gave it a lot of thought I would have thought of another way to end it.

    I'm far more interested in Star Wars and the movie industry (all entertainment really) in terms of the title of this thread. Movie makers are now encouraged to attack large portions of their audience with no fear of repercussions. How did we get here? How did execs rise so high in business, yet show no aptitude in making good long term business decisions in their industry? It's all societies and psychology, which to me is never boring.

    TF director Tim Miller was fired from Deadpool 2. Months ago I talked about it was going to be horrible because Miller was playing defense for a movie when he should have been telling people why they should see his movie. "This movie is going to piss off misogynists." Miller said something like that. I went and watched the trailer, it looked like the plot of every Terminator movie (except Salvation). Hamilton transformed from T1 to T2 into a badass. T3's John Connor didn't seem like a guy who could be forged into the leader of humanity's resistance, misogynists would praise him. Genisys (T5?) looked horrible, Sarah Connor (played by Emilia Clarke) was now a badass from the start. Everything I know about it is from RedLetterMedia. There was a Terminator show that had a female Terminator, never saw it. Why would misogynists suddenly feel the need to start insulting Terminator movies for having strong women in it? Someone told me that Miller made Deadpool, which was liked by many, so he is a decent director. Then why was he fired from Deadpool 2?

  17. #157

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernXY View Post
    I'm half way through this thread but wanted to post before I forget (hard seeing things weeks old after the conversation has moved on).

    Rey is a Mary Sue, I haven't come across anyone with a valid argument she's not. I had to walk out of The Force Awakens, or should I say drunkenly stumbled? I have seen it in whole once, along with TLJ. I've watched some reviews praising them, but mostly ones hating it, which are mostly Star Wars fans. I'm not a Star Wars fan, didn't see one till my girlfriend in high made me, haven't seen Rogue One. I do pretentiously consider myself a film making snob, 4 years of high school broadcasting and film making, and a year of college. Rian Johnson does not like Star Wars or its fans, I have seen an interview where when he was asked in a friendly matter sitting next to Mark Hamill whether after time had passed and people had a chance to cool down if he thought at least some negative critiques of the film had some validity. In a flash he said no. He was sitting next to Mark Hamill, who he knows has opening criticized him and his script, in like every interview.
    While we can understand why Disney may have wanted to appeal to a new generation and a new audience, there are ways of doing so without alienating the old fans, which Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson deliberately did. Instead of making a more inclusive Star Wars movies, they made it the Star Wars the most exclusionary films in the series they could. Having a director who has no appreciation or respect for the Star Wars series, and who is arrogant to boot, as Johnson clearly is, shows more than just poor judgement on Kennedy's part - she set out to push an ideological agenda.

    The fact Disney didn't fire or replace Kennedy demonstrates that Disney supports that agenda, even over making profits. Having deliberately alienated the old fans, the ones most likely to appreciate the Star Wars theme park, one shouldn't be surprised that the Star Wars theme park is failing. Ticking off and deliberating insulting the very fans most likely to go to the Star Wars theme park is not a model for success.

    TLJ takes place right after Deathplanet was destroyed. Which means she's only known Chewie for a couple of days, somehow knows Wookie even though I wouldn't think her planet would have a high demand for WSL (Wookie as a second language). Whatever nerd! Right? When Rey and Chewie arrive on Luke's island, Chewie breaks down the door to Luke's house. Rey then proceeds to translate what Chewie says to Luke. Think about that for a minute while I move on. According to Disney, Rey is more powerful than Palpatine, so she can destroy the First Order by herself. If there's no tension, there's no stakes, but okay Disney, if you want to take on the Superman problem, I hope you understand what you're doing. According to Rian, Disney didn't know what they were doing and had no story outline for the trilogy for him to write the 2nd film around.
    To be slightly fair to The Last Jedi, we really don't know her long the trip to get to Luke took. Star Wars movies never clearly comes out and say how long it takes to get anywhere in the Star Wars. You can infer that the trips are relatively of short duration with hyperlight drive, since single seat fighters with no room to stretch your legs have no problem getting anywhere they want, and if trips took a long time, that would not be possible. But Kennedy and her henchmen like Rian have thrown logic and consistency with all the other Star Wars movies out the window.

    Considering all the other plot holes and just plain idiotic logic demonstrated by everyone in the movie, the fact that Rey knows instant Wookie is one of the relatively minor flaws, and is in keeping with her Mary Sue character.

    It is not the mere fact that Rey is so powerful, but that she virtually needs no training at all. She does things without training that only experience force users could do. She is so powerful she can learn Wookie in days.


    He was so convinced of his own greatness and of Star Wars fans patheticness, he didn't think marketing was important. He expected to put out any product and Star Wars fans to show up any way and spend everything they can. I'll admit that I'd probably never dress up for a movie or Comicon, but some people find it fun. I've also watched some Star Wars announcements events, the way I see some of those people act is disturbing, some crying with joy but some going hysterical and throwing rabid fits. Irregardless, I would never expect I can demean/disrespect a customer by expecting them to give me money no matter what quality of product I put out. The Star Wars Lands are doing horrible, and Disney has been caught cooking the books for at least one park. When The Rise of Skywalker tickets went on sale, Star Wars fans reported that a lot of seats had already been sold and when they looked at all the showings, there was something fishy, and I'm not talking about Admiral Ackbar*.
    It is not just that the product is terrible, is that the product deliberately went out its way to insult the old fans. It went out of its way to destroy the character of the star in the original Star Wars movie, making Luke a whining, bitter old man nobody could have any respect for, in total disregard to Luke's character as established in all the other movies. This was because Luke was male, and the movie didn't want any positive male role models, especially white ones.. Poe is a token white male character, whose immature and reckless behavior limits any effective model. In The Force Awakens Hans Solo character too was destroyed, reverting back to his old smuggler's way, which was enduring if you are young brash man, but not if you are an used up old has been. Both Luke and Solo's character were killed off in pointless manner, just to ensure they wouldn't be in any more sequels. Since Ford had wanted to kill off Hans. that was ok, but Hamill didn't express desire to kill off Luke, and Luke's death was done solely to push an agenda.

    Given all that, isn't any wonder that Star Wars Lands are doing terrible? When you deliberately go out of your way to insult and alienate the very people would have been its biggest fans, should we be surprised it is failing so badly? And by keeping Kennedy on, Disney is thumbing its nose at these fans, so we should not be surprised that the fans have responded by staying away.


    Yeah, if you think that's normal, you're a Disney bot and are playing stooge for Disney for free. Why would I listen to news about record tickets sales from company owned by Disney? Would they report poor ticket sales? Disney is also running defense that they're reshooting significant parts of TROS (movie reshoots are very normal, especially for corporate committee films after test screenings), and have already spent $300M in reshoots. When I was studying film, you could generally ballpark advertising costs to approach the cost of the movie itself, especially for summer action-adventure movies. However that's before comic book movies, the want for the international/Chinese market, and companies started purchasing their own tickets as socially suggestive advertising. "Wow, if the movie is that popular maybe I should see it too?" So it very well may cost upward of $900M. Let's try break it all down to see what's going through the accountants' heads at Disney. I've included domestic home sales, but I don't have the breakdown of profit but let's just say it's all profit because everything is online and the trend in sales is more important than the numbers. Also no toys, Star Wars is all about the toys I know, but they're not selling.

    TFA $245M budget, $500M total, $2B sales - $500M theatre, $200M home, ~$1.2B profit
    ROASWS $200M budget, $400 total, $1B sales - $250M theatre, $85M home, ~$335M profit
    TLJ $210M budget, $420 total, $1.3B sales - $325M theatre, $88M home, ~$665M profit
    SASWS $250+M budget, $400+M total, $400M sales - $50M theatre, $55M home, read ~$80M loss
    Despite all the complaints, the The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi made good money - a $1.28 billion dollar profit and a $665 million dollar profit is nothing to sneeze at. Sequels typically don't make as much money as the first movie, so the decline is nothing. Since both TFA and TLJ both made good profits, it probably explains why Disney is keeping Kennedy in charge of Star Wars at Disney. Failures of the Hans Solo movie can be explained away, and if the Rise of Skywalker makes money, Disney won't care about negative criticism from the old fans, since Disney is far more interested in what new fans think. Old fans are not going to buy action figures like new younger fans. And getting rid of Kennedy in what is perceived as a backlash by old fans, could alienate all the new fans that Disney hopes to develop.

    That the failure of Star Wars Lands could be related to the way Disney has deliberately snubbed old Star Wars fans is not something Disney is likely to admit. And to admit problems would be admitting that the corporate executives made a mistake by putting Kennedy in charge.

    Solo is a crap shoot because Disney was circling the wagons and wasn't going to be alerting the media and shareholders how much they really lost. Some sites report $250 total production cost and others $250M initial, $150M reshoots, totaling $400M total production as they nearly refilmed the entire movie, throw in probably $200M advertising costs and even a small 10% theatre cut, and I'm questioning their books, which they cook. My numbers aren't correct, but from 7 to 8, it saw a 33% decline in sales and a very vocal reaction, then less than 6 months later their next movie lost money. Star Wars is a license to print money, Iger decided to not use green ink. Solo's reshoots were suppose to make it better and thus more profitable, but it wasn't part of the Skywalker saga just like Rogue One, which from the first to the second, just like the Disney saga, saw a huge loss in sales. After how much they've insulted the fans, who again make Star Wars the cash cow it is with many repeat viewings and toys, Disney has seen nothing but a backlash. Iger has been "filling in" for Kennedy on decision making. They realized they can actually lose money if they don't produce somethings the fans want.
    The problem is, I think many long time Star Wars fans are so alienated that unless the Rise of Skywalkter is an outstanding movie, the old time fans are not going to come back. The Rise of Skywalker is the last Star Wars movie ever likely to be made, Kennedy has pretty much destroyed the mystique of Star Wars. The Star Wars saga is not resonating with the younger generation, and the long time fans might just see the movie once to finish off the series out of curiosity, but they are not going to see the movies repeatedly as they did in the past. In short, if TROS is to be a success, it will have to depend on appealing to those who are not Star Wars fan, and frankly, I don't see Abrams being that good a director to succeed.

    Han Solo was made as a sop to the long time Star Wars fans that Kennedy knew they were going to insult with The Last Jedi, to bring back an old fan favorite. But it is clear that their heart wasn't into making it a good movie, and since Kennedy had already alienated fans who were the most likely ones to go see it, the movie failed because it wasn't good enough to extract those who were not already fans of the Star Wars movies.


    Remember when I told you to think about that scene? Luke has known Chewie for over 40 years, why'd she translate what he was saying? In their reunion and with Luke learning of Han's death, she'd be forgotten instantly as the two long time friends grieved. We don't get that scene of Luke processing his friend, murdered by his son who he failed to train properly, who he already was in isolation over. Star Wars fans and even me needed that.
    It is worse than that. Not only does Luke show no real sympathy for the loss of his best friend, but Rey and the rest of the pathetic remains of the Resistance fleet show no sadness over the fact that 99.99% of their fellow Resistance members DIED, and the Resistance suffered a huge defeat, the worst in all the Star Wars movies. Why are Resistance survivors all smiling, as if they won some huge victory, when the Resistance is down to one small ship? At the end of The Empire Strikes Back, the last scene is of a sober looking Luke and Leia watching the Millennium Falcon fly off, as we expect. It is an example of how much better the original series were than the TFA and TLJ. Luke in the The Empire Strikes Back is a much more mature person than the panicky kid in Star Wars: A New Hope who is shouting "They're coming in too fast!". There is zero character growth in Rey's character, we don't get any sense she is any different from the person she was on the planet they found her in TFA.

    In Star Wars: A New Hope, the Rebels did have something to cheer about, destroying the Death Star was a major blow against the Empire, but the Resistance had nothing to cheer about, just a few people surviving. Given the terrible leadership of the Resistance, Leia and the people she put in charge managed to destroy the entire Resistance fleet, it would have been better off if all the Resistance members had died, and made a much better movie. The end scene would have made more sense and impact - the Resistance is dead, but the spirit of the Resistance lives on, and even if you killed all the Resistance members, others will arise to take the place of the fallen. That would have surprised fans's expectation, and would have made a much better and more interesting movie.

    *Vice-admiral Pink Hair should have been written for Admiral Ackbar. I did a quick rewrite for fun when I was bed ridden after surgery and the final scene he was telling everyone they had to flee, but he was staying. He reassures people over a microphone begging him to reconsider, that he knows what he's doing, he has a plan. We see him walking over to flight controls, the ship completely deserted, the eerie silence makes the pleas over of comm for him to come, much more unsettling. At flight controls, from the back over his shoulder we see a screen with that angry red head general turn on. He insults Ackbar then laughs.
    It would be insulting to Ackbar to ascribe such a stupid plan as Pink Hair Holdo's to Ackbar. Pink Hair giraffe neck admiral is one of the many things that made TLJ such a poor movie. Even if you were not a fan, her whole character is just terrible:

    a. Her dress may have been appropriate attending an diplomatic ball, but other than showing Holdo had a terrible taste in fashion, it completely lacked the military bearing of an outfit you would expect of an admiral in charge of a fleet. She was fighting space battles, not serving cocktails, but maybe that was the point, that the movie intended to convey on utterly incompetent the Resistance leadership was, and we all just missed the subtle point. Only someone even more incompetent to the already incompetent First Order Leadership could have lost to the idiots in charge of the First Order Fleet. (Why would you put an incompetent person like General Hux, who just lost the Death Planet, in charge of the First Order Fleet? He's a general, not an admiral, and a clearly incompetent general at that.)

    b. Her plan was incredibly stupid, and it depended on other's coming to bail out the pathetic Resistance, which they might or might not due. If the others chose not to bail out the Resistance which was clearly not worth bailing out, the Resistance was toast. There were dozens of the other plans Holdo could have come up with, anyone which were far more intelligent that her plan. (Since she knew the First Older was tracking the large ships, why not use the large ships as a decoy to lure away the First Order fleet by jumping to one location, while the rest of the Resistance jumps to a different location? Anything was better than Holdo's plan.)

    And logic aside, Holdo's plan made for a very boring chase scene, where the First Order leisurely blows up Resistance ships one by one. Without the casino planet ripoff of a bad James Bond film, the entire middle of the movie would have consisted of nothing much happening. Luke drinking disgusting green milk, Rey not getting trained, and Admiral Holdo acting like all around jerk by not bringing in the rest of the fleet into her confidence.

    c. Her plan being totally stupid is why she didn't share it with anybody else, because they would have pointed out just how stupid it was in every way. The arrogance of Holdo is mirrored by Johnson's own arrogance an conceit. Johnson ignored the rest of the 7 other Star Wars movie, and was established of could and could not be done in the Star Wars universe, simply so he could make the film his way without total disregard to whatever went before - disregard to the established personalities in the previous movies of the characters, disregard to the capability of the ships in the previous 7 movies, everything.

    Can't find what I actually wrote and it's not Shakespeare, but no one likes Pink Hair or her pink hair. Ackbar died unceremoniously getting blown into space with Leah. In my version you don't introduce a character who doesn't have much screen time and hope the audience cares enough about her sacrifice. My why gives a cult and meme favorite everywhere a noble send off. Maybe it "rhymes" to much.
    It is not just that Pink Hair was a minor character, it was also that she was a complete jerk of a character in what was shown. There was no reason for her not to share her plan with Poe and others, or at least assure Poe she had a plan. Poe didn't even insist she share the plan, just assure them she did have one. And she refused even to do that. Why should we care that

    Edit: The light speed ramming was a horrible idea, People in this galaxy have been using light speed for over 10,000 years, if this was possible, how is it only being discovered now? It'd be like when we invented guns we didn't learn we could use them in war for 10,000 years, just using them for hunting.
    Exactly the point of many of those criticizing the movie. Why not use the doomed Medical frigate to hyperspace ram the gun ship? Why not hyperspace ram the gunship before the all the other Resistance Fleet was completely destroyed? Why wait until all your other ships have been destroyd?

    IF that were the only flaw, it would be bad, but maybe could be overlooked. But it is consistent with everything in the movie, that deu ex machina plot devices are constantly introduced. Suddenly, after 7 movies, you can now track in hyperspace. Suddenly, after 7 movies, fuel and range becomes an issue for Star Wars ships. Luke in his little single seat X-wing had no problem going to the farthest reaches of known space, yet now, when it suits the director, it range and fuel becomes critical? After a 10,000 years, how come only now a method to track in hyperspace was finally developed?
    Last edited by Common Soldier; November 16, 2019 at 02:09 PM.

  18. #158
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Maybe it took thousands of years for one person to realize you can ram spaceships using warp speed, because it is like in the WH40K universe with Orks: they are psychic and therefore if enough of them believe something can happen, it can happen
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  19. #159
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I find it amazing that people can dedicate so much time and passion to a movie they didn't like.

    Since you are in it, at least you, (common soldier specifically) could not give such ridiculous arguments as the poor suitability of a dress or the willingness of the scriptwriters to ridicule the white man, or could you try to camouflage your misogyny a bit. Examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier
    While we can understand why Disney may have wanted to appeal to a new generation and a new audience, there are ways of doing so without alienating the old fans, which Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson deliberately did. Instead of making a more inclusive Star Wars movies, they made it the Star Wars the most exclusionary films in the series they could. Having a director who has no appreciation or respect for the Star Wars series, and who is arrogant to boot, as Johnson clearly is, shows more than just poor judgement on Kennedy's part - she set out to push an ideological agenda.

    [...]


    It is not just that the product is terrible, is that the product deliberately went out its way to insult the old fans. It went out of its way to destroy the character of the star in the original Star Wars movie, making Luke a whining, bitter old man nobody could have any respect for, in total disregard to Luke's character as established in all the other movies. This was because Luke was male, and the movie didn't want any positive male role models, especially white ones.. Poe is a token white male character, whose immature and reckless behavior limits any effective model. In The Force Awakens Hans Solo character too was destroyed, reverting back to his old smuggler's way, which was enduring if you are young brash man, but not if you are an used up old has been. Both Luke and Solo's character were killed off in pointless manner, just to ensure they wouldn't be in any more sequels. Since Ford had wanted to kill off Hans. that was ok, but Hamill didn't express desire to kill off Luke, and Luke's death was done solely to push an agenda.

    Pink Hair... Pink Hair... Pink Hair giraffe neck
    By the way it is Han, not Hans. And the color purple, not pink.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 16, 2019 at 01:46 PM.

  20. #160

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I find it amazing that people can dedicate so much time and passion to a movie they didn't like.

    Since you are in it, at least you, (common soldier specifically) could not give such ridiculous arguments as the poor suitability of a dress or the willingness of the scriptwriters to ridicule the white man, or could you try to camouflage your misogyny a bit. Examples:
    Rather typical of you to attack the persons rather than their arguments, but entirely up bderstandable since you dont have the arguments to counter thr claims.

    As for devoting so much time to one movie, it was because it was a particularly egregious example of the topic of the thread, of what was wrong with the critics. The gap between the The Last Jedi and the audience perception was among the largest of any movie. Extensive discussion and examples were needed to show why the TLJ was truly a not very good movie. You could have countered the arguments made with actual facts, but instead just chose to make unsuppported assertions as you are doing here.

    Since TLJ was one of the worse examples of the difference between the critics and audiences, it naturally deserved to be discussed in length, as anyone with real perception would.understand.

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