Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

[mishkin]

You have affirmed that the critique (and I) would defend batwomen by the mere fact that its protagonist is a woman and a lesbian. I have shown that thats not true, you still say nothing more than vagueness that I will not answer anymore, sorry.

[Cookiegod]

You have affirmed that the critique (and I) would defend batwomen by the mere fact that its protagonist is a woman and a lesbian. I have shown that thats not true, you still say nothing more than vagueness that I will not answer anymore, sorry.

Apologies: I thought you had read your own link:

Metacritics. Batwoman metascore: 60.

Also, I get now what you mean by "vague": An answer that isn't as easy as you want it to be. You showed us from your very first post how absolute your position is:

you have never heard of a portion of the population, with a certain ideology

Very thinly veiled reference to right wingers, and strongly implying us to be that, as otherwise referring to right wingers would have had zero relevance at all.
This was understood by others as such and when they reacted this way, you pretty much confirmed it outright:

Oh, you felt attacked, I wonder why.

I haven't seen the movie yet, I don't know if it's political or not, but its defenders and those who carry it as a banner have certain common features.

You are espousing a firm belief in guilty by association. If two people agree that a movie is bad, and one of them is far right, it follows by your thinking, that both of them absolutely must be far right.

And you're expecting me to adhering to that same paradigm, expecting ALL people on "your" side, including you, to all like or dislike the very same movies. You're basically doing everything you dislike about rottentomatoes, but taken to an even greater extreme. Either one is with you or with your worst enemies.

Assuming that everyone works under the same flawed logic as you also has the very convenient side effect that you're giving yourself a strawman that's very easy to prove through a negative:

You have affirmed that the critique (and I) would defend batwomen by the mere fact that its protagonist is a woman and a lesbian. I have shown that thats not true, you still say nothing more than vagueness that I will not answer anymore, sorry.

What you're calling "vagueness" is actually propensity.

What I pointed out, is that political correctness people these days have a strong propensity to praise art undeserving of such high regard when it suits their ideology, and defame and deride that which is at odds with their beliefs. Propensity does not mean that you or anyone is obligated to 100% always act by it. For instance, you liking TLJ would not automatically mean you're SJW (you repeatedly and without any reasonable cause accusing people of being right wing does, though), nor does propensity mean that you must like Batwoman just because you see yourself in the same political camp as that show.

[Knight of Heaven]

A read to what the critics have been writing, is enough to get the idea of it. imo.

[Common Soldier]

duplicate posting

[Common Soldier]

I found this Bill Maher, who is no conservative, criticizing movie critics on a movie like Amy Schummer's movie "I Feel Pretty".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDW7PViQts0

And another reporting Bill Maher's comment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTAwY_BkP8g


Bill Maher's criticisms are relevant here, because they come from a person who is unbashedly a person of the left, but who still felt compelled to criticized the opinions of movie critics. Amy Schummer's movie was criticized because Amy wasn't fat enough, wasn't ugly enough, wasn't a minority for these critics. Even though Amy Schummer was not a conservative, and could be rightly called a feminist, she and her movie was still criticized because the movie didn't push the "social justice" agenda enough. Apparently some critics criticized Amy and the movie because Amy was "able body", in other words Amy had all her limbs. This criticism comes from a man with undisputed credentials of the Left, not some right winger or conservative.

Comedian Bill Maher vehemently defended the film against its allegations of body shaming, knocking Schumer's critics on his HBO television show Real Time with Bill Maher, stating, "Tonight I'd like to examine the reaction to Amy Schumer's new film I Feel Pretty, which the professionally offended have decided that even though it's a film by women filmmakers presenting an entirely pro-woman message, it does it the wrong way! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Feel_Pretty_(film)

Bill Maher is usually spot on in his criticisms, whether they be of his fellow members of the Left or the Right. He has just as critical of the failings of the Left as he is of the Right.

[Cookiegod]

I found this Bill Maher, who is no conservative, criticizing movie critics on a movie like Amy Schummer's movie "I Feel Pretty".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDW7PViQts0

And another reporting Bill Maher's comment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTAwY_BkP8g


Bill Maher's criticisms are relevant here, because they come from a person who is unbashedly a person of the left, but who still felt compelled to criticized the opinions of movie critics. Amy Schummer's movie was criticized because Amy wasn't fat enough, wasn't ugly enough, wasn't a minority for these critics. Even though Amy Schummer was not a conservative, and could be rightly called a feminist, she and her movie was still criticized because the movie didn't push the "social justice" agenda enough. Apparently some critics criticized Amy and the movie because Amy was "able body", in other words Amy had all her limbs. This criticism comes from a man with undisputed credentials of the Left, not some right winger or conservative.



Bill Maher is usually spot on in his criticisms, whether they be of his fellow members of the Left or the Right. He has just as critical of the failings of the Left as he is of the Right.

I'm sorry but you got it all backwards. The moment Bill Maher dared to criticise movie critics, he revealed himself to be an alt-right troll fanboy. He's probably a mole working for the Nazis.

This we know from our right wing experts. I mean experts on right wing.
They can read it from your palms and from the flight paths of birds in the sky.

If they say you're right wing, you better accept this fact even if you disagree with pretty much everything on the right. It's totally not because they've trained themselves to consider even the slightest differences in opinion to be far right.

"Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."* Requiescat in purgatorium. Amen.

[Kyriakos]

Maher is hardly characteristic of anything left of the establishment dem party, though
Anyway, a movie shouldn't be seen as a vehicle to present political stuff, in my view. And it is also problematic to just see it as something where one can project their own biases. For example the critique of the Joker, that it is about a "patron saint of incels", is ridiculous. Obviously incels existed prior to the meme.
I am surprised that an ok film (the Joker) gets treated like some cultural phenomenon and either a masterpiece or the worst thing ever. It isn't some cerebral film - well, if not juxtaposed to mere 'superhero' movies; which tend to be the opposite of cerebral in the first place.

[Cookiegod]

- It addressed relevant societal issues (alienated nihilistic men, mental illness)
- The presentation of mental illness was realistic, as it was not overly rationalised. It favoured realism over digestability
- The movie didn't force any message down your throat, it leaves it to you to make your own conclusions
- It had a coherent plot progression
- Every single plot twist served and strengthened the plot, rather than destroying the overall plot (as has become the fashion today) in favour of cheap surprise points, and is thus probably a rewatchable movie, as it does not rely on surprises
- I am usually the kind of guy who can predict pretty much everything that happens in movies. Like guessing the murderer within the first minutes of a movie, before a murder has even happened, or, in the movie "Solo" predicting which character would die in which order and who would be the traitor pretty much the moment they get introduced (because it was so in-your-face). With Joker I got most things wrong, simply because my expectations were so low, I constantly expected it to take some short cut. Compared to my expectations, every plot twist was much better
- The movie was good at creating empathy whilst simultaneously never suggesting that the actions of the protagonist were ok.
- It refrained from the oh so tired Good vs bad trope. Especially when Thomas Wayne is concerned
- It had a pristine ending. Did the movie plot really happen and he merely thought about it to himself whilst sitting in front of the psychiatrist, or is that simply another origin story the Joker made up before presumably killing the woman and escaping? Your interpretation is left up to you.

But we already talked about it. That is subjective. The things you disliked were generally strengths in my opinion.

Good thing is we two can agree or disagree without thinking the other has to be a member of the KKK.

[mishkin]

Who are those "alienated nihilistic men" the movie talk about? Snowflakes with zero tolerance for frustration?

[Cookiegod]

Depends.
It's been mentioned a couple of times already in this thread that neither right nor left wing nor Trump nor Snowflakes nor whatever are mentioned in the movie at all. So that part you already know.
But you already know that and that doesn't have to stop you.
If everyone with mental health issues and lack of social skills who ends up pushed out of society is right wing to you and the proper term for them in your opinion is snowflakes, then yes.

[mishkin]

What are you talking about mate? I asked you a very simple and very clear question

Who are those "alienated nihilistic men" the movie talk about? Snowflakes with zero tolerance for frustration?

[Cookiegod]

And I answered you. In my opinion no. But in our postmodern times it can be to you:

If everyone with mental health issues and lack of social skills who ends up pushed out of society is right wing to you and the proper term for them in your opinion is snowflakes, then yes.

[mishkin]

Ok. So first they were "alienated nihilistic men" and now is people with "lack of social skills who ends up pushed out of society". However you say it, I must admit sounds like a bunch of incels to me. Good night.

[Cookiegod]

Because wow. And all incels in your fantasy are right wing, right? None left, none center, none neutral. Nope. All right wing. Good night.

[mishkin]

So yes, you dont deny it, you were talking about incels.

(Wiki) Many incel communities are characterized by resentment, self-pity,[5] racism, misogyny, misanthropy, and narcissism.[1][7][5][4][25][35][24][34] Discussions often revolve around the belief that men are owed sex; other common topics include idleness, loneliness, unhappiness,[39] suicide, sexual surrogates, prostitutes and the acquisition of sex robots,[40] as well as various attributes they believe increase one's desirability as a partner such as income or personality.[23] Opposition to feminism and women's rights is commonplace, and some posters blame women's liberation for their inability to find a partner. Antisemitic beliefs are also regularly found on incel forums, with some posters going so far as to blame the rise of feminism on a plot masterminded by Jews to weaken the West.[19]

I think It doesn't fit in the leftist/progressive ideology, but if you say there are left-wing celibates it must be true.

[Kyriakos]

So yes, you dont deny it, you were talking about incels.

(Wiki) Many incel communities are characterized by resentment, self-pity,[5] racism, misogyny, misanthropy, and narcissism.[1][7][5][4][25][35][24][34] Discussions often revolve around the belief that men are owed sex; other common topics include idleness, loneliness, unhappiness,[39] suicide, sexual surrogates, prostitutes and the acquisition of sex robots,[40] as well as various attributes they believe increase one's desirability as a partner such as income or personality.[23] Opposition to feminism and women's rights is commonplace, and some posters blame women's liberation for their inability to find a partner. Antisemitic beliefs are also regularly found on incel forums, with some posters going so far as to blame the rise of feminism on a plot masterminded by Jews to weaken the West.[19]

I think It doesn't fit in the leftist/progressive ideology, but if you say there are left-wing celibates it must be true.

You know, a previous version of the film was posted (info about it) in this very thread, and if you actually watch that video it becomes apparent that the first version would be having a lot of more antifa-like elements, eg:
-the girl is real (not imaginary) in the relationship, and Joker tries to avenge sexism against her
-the Joker actually has sex with her

It is just that the final product got rid of those elements, so looks more tied to "incel" stuff. But really, people who have difficulty having sex aren't "right-wing" just cause the meme presents them as such. It is rather idiotic to claim that this has to do with political orientation, no?

I think it is good they got rid of the original version of the script, cause it was more convoluted and ultimately more of a political movie. I don't see the Joker as it got released as being about any political movement.

[mishkin]

Some interesting things about the movie, thanks.
People who have difficulty having sex and incels are two different things. Reading the wiki paragraph I posted you can see it, and you can also see the points in common with right wing ideology.
I have said it before, Joker might not be a political movie, but apparently some people with very well defined "political" ideas (incels and probably others) think the film is about them and are grateful.

[Cookiegod]

So yes, you dont deny it, you were talking about incels.

That's some pristine logic. If juuuuust slightly grasping for straws in your right wing witch hunt. But keep going. You have already judged the witches, now you just need to find some... Well not even evidence.

Spoiler alert: I have zero insight into incel subculture. I couldn't help you with that if I wanted to. I didn't even know there were that many of them, but according to you this boogeyman is lurking behind every corner.

Checking everything and everyone for compliance with your political orthodoxy has had some hefty consequences for you.

[Common Soldier]

You have affirmed that the critique (and I) would defend batwomen by the mere fact that its protagonist is a woman and a lesbian. I have shown that thats not true, you still say nothing more than vagueness that I will not answer anymore, sorry.

Actually, the example of Amy Schumer's "I Feel Pretty" and the critics shows that even if you do the right things, if you don't do it the way the critics want, then it is not good. Even though young women rated the film positively giving it an "A-" to "A", critics gave it only a 38%. See Bill Maher's link I provided on my previous post.


For the critics, it is not enough to do "the right things". You have to do the "the things" the critics way. If Batwoman is a minority transgender person, then it won't satisfy the critics

[mishkin]

Actually, the example of Amy Schumer's "I Feel Pretty" and the critics shows that even if you do the right things, if you don't do it the way the critics want, then it is not good. Even though young women rated the film positively giving it an "A-" to "A", critics gave it only a 38%. See Bill Maher's link I provided on my previous post.


For the critics, it is not enough to do "the right things". You have to do the "the things" the critics way. If Batwoman is a minority transgender person, then it won't satisfy the critics

this in another place would be the proof that a movie starring a feminist woman or in theory attractive to the LGTBI public can also be considered by most professional critics a bad or mediocre show.

Inconceivable to think that those movies had bad reviews simply because they were horrible, right? Also intolerable that most critics consider the Joker simply a good movie, not a masterpiece "over" other movies that you hate for purely "political" reasons ("A woman as a hero of the saga, a black man as her main companion?!!???"). Guys...