Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

[Common Soldier]

What I'm saying is she's either doing good in tv(Mandalorian, Rebels), books(holy ...too many to list), comics(holy too many to sift much lest list), or you just think she's bad because one movie was definitively bad(Solo: A Star Wars Story).


Remember, she runs it all. Not just the movies.

I forgot she is also responsible for the TV shows and every thing else, which pretty much invalidates all what I said about her. I guess I was wrong about her, thanks for pointing it out.

I wonder what happened with the movies? Compared to the TV shows and such, they are much weaker. But a 100% Rotten Tomaro score for Star Wars Rebels still seems a little high. 90% sure, but every critic? Even 5hr original Star Wars didn't score so highly. I kind of wonder these high Rotten Tomatoes scores are not due in part to Disney's studion influence. Disney can't make the critics like a really bad film, but maybe ifnir is a decent movie they can have the critics give it a slight boost.

[Gaidin]

I didn’t say it invalidated what you said. I said you have an insanely biased sample. Get it right.

[Gromovnik]

But what about the great conspiracy?

[athanaric]

But what about the great conspiracy?

Who's been claiming there is one?

[mishkin]

Who's been claiming there is one?

Actually we have two (totally related in my opinion, maybe we should ask them directly) conspiracies here: "movie critics are leftists with an agenda/promoting some films" (mainly Cookiegod) and "The last Jedi (and all the recent saga) is feminazi bs" (mainly Common Soldier). I recommend you reading the posts here of these two users. Of course I'm eager to read your opinion about this or even about the opening post.

[Kyriakos]

I don't think it is about actual leftism. More like hackery and following some trend.
Most critics are just trying to be part of a system, and it's not like their own work is something of importance. Also, in most such jobs one is just after money and belonging to a club.
I don't see how any of the political hackery is about actual leftism, I mean they aren't Bernie Sanders; they are just some lowlife on MSNBC, itself just the cousin of the analogue at Fox.

[Gromovnik]

Who's been claiming there is one?

A person in this thread claimed that Disney is pushing some agenda even at the expense of their profits.

[Knight of Heaven]

Conspiracy is not the word. I mean it is pretty much in the open.

And it isn't Particular to Disney, it is all over the industry it self, not just movies, but media at large, tv series, comedy specials etc. Also lots of Corporations today prefer to virtual signal hot fracturing social topics in the hopes of getting major publicity. Whatever audiences like it or not. It is a modern trend.
Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. I do think we are entering in an era were is getting less effective. Due to current culture war and increasingly social fracturing we see today. Obviously social media plays a huge role in this dynamics.

I don't think it is about actual leftism. More like hackery and following some trend.

It isn't really about actual leftism, it is what you say, and also about what is today called the "woke" culture.

[mishkin]

Also lots of Corporations today prefer to virtual signal hot fracturing social topics in the hopes of getting major publicity. Whatever audiences like it or not. It is a modern trend.
Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. I do think we are entering in an era were is getting less effective.

Could you say explicitly what trend you are talking about? Feminist movies? Movies that include people of color in their cast? Can you give examples of this trend? On the current billboard, I could only catalog as "feminist", with many quotes, Charlie's Angels. By the way, a movie strongly criticized by ["URL="https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/charlies_angels_2019"]those who should defend it,[/URL]" right?

Due to current culture war and increasingly social fracturing we see today. Obviously social media plays a huge role in this dynamics.

It isn't really about actual leftism, it is what you say, and also about what is today called the "woke" culture.

What war are you talking about?

With woke culture do you mean people becoming aware that we live in an eminently sexist society that respects minorities very little?

[Knight of Heaven]

Could you say explicitly what trend you are talking about? Feminist movies? Movies that include people of color in their cast? Can you give examples of this trend? On the current billboard, I could only catalog as "feminist", with many quotes, Charlie's Angels. By the way, a movie strongly criticized

The point isn't that there is people of color in movies, people of color are part of Hollywood movies for decades now, as well women. It isn't about feminist movies. The trend is about virtual signaling, this issues, in the media, in hopes to get points in publicity, as well moral points, in media, as well social media. Empty outrage so they can sell a product, and probably feel good about themselves. Also the belief that in itself is enough to make a movie relevant, or even good.

Charlie Angels is a great example of that. A film that painted itself as a feminist, where the director herself said it wasn't made for men, and later blamed men for not going to see it.
She is using sexism as excuse for the film failings in the box office, as she used apparent social issues to promote her film, and paint herself and the film morally virtuous.

While the truth is the film isn't very good, nor it had a proper marketing campaign, most people didn't knew about the film until news that it had bombed. Also admittedly the concept is creatively bankrupt and shallow as it goes. But such is the trend in Hollywood.

By numbers alone More women went to see Rambo last blood then, they went to see Charlie Angels. It wasn't that men didn't went to see it. It was that nobody went to see it.

The studios, directors, and actors often in this movies put themselves into a corner, and then they blame the audience. They create a problem, where there isn't none to begin with. Lots of films in Hollywood even recently, with people of color, and women as front leads, have been successful, both critically, and financially.

So no. the trend im talking about is about virtual signaling social issues. Not about not having people of color and women in the movies. But the fact that having people of color and women in those movies, is used to virtual signal.

As far im concerned its ok to have a film with all people of color. As much is ok to have a film of all white people in it. Most people just want to see a good movie, or at least be entertained. Not to be called upon how sexist, and racist they supposedly are.

With woke culture do you mean people becoming aware that we live in an eminently sexist society that respects minorities very little?

Do we? i mean im not saying there isn't problems. But that isn't what i would define western developed societies as a whole. I mean being dominated by a Patriarchal system, and being dominated by oppressive racism.

When we look at it generally, our societies are the most egalitarian, and less sexist in the world ( specially western Europe). So no i dont think our societies are eminently sexist, or racist, and never in our history, minorities were as protected and represented, and influential then today. Even with the issues.

Not discounting, that problems, and issues that exist. They are not as big as often "woke" media makes it out to be.

Woke culture is linked to feign outrage, over moral values imo. And corporations are full of it. That in itself doesn't make their product better, neither critically or financially. But a lot of people today think it does. Hence a disparity in critics and audiences in this type of movies and media, for example.


You know im generally left wing. But the current Culture of political correctness, and neo puritanism, and that of compliance by virtual signaling moral values, was never something i appreciated, used to be predicated, in extreme conservationism, and the so called good habits culturally. But today oddly enough it isn't them that are pushing for this dynamics the most.

At any case i believe this will pass.

What war are you talking about?

Mate. I didn't want to get into it, since it involves a lots of elements to it, and there is different contexts to it. But in my mind, there is no doubt, there is an increasingly polarization, both in views, and how we discuss them. This is blatantly obvious in politics today, in western societies, but even socially. It is no surprise this translates to media in general. Its linked to the rise of populism, on the right, and extreme post modernist ideologies on the far left.

[mishkin]

You say that certain movies deal with certain themes and hire certain actors with the only objective of reaching a certain audience. Is that the trend you were talking about? It may be the case of the aforementioned charlie angels (I would bet that none of us have seen it), it may be the case of the latest ghostbusters or the remake (or whatever that was) of Oceans eleven. How many more cases occur per year? How many movies (which ones?) have been produced in recent years to capitalize on issues such as feminism, LGBTI community rights and the like? Five? Ten? Is that the trend that worries you so much? And why do you care so much about this? Now you discover that there are people who try anything to try to sell a product?

We live in a macho society that treats minorities with little respect. That is a fact, and to say that in other places society is more macho or cruel is a very bad excuse not to continue fighting here. It's like denying the right to try to improve security in our cities because in other places there are daily shootings. Again I ask you for examples of blockbusters trying to take advantage of the fight against these injustices demonstrably only for spurious reasons. Black Panther? Call me By Your Name? Three Billboards? Ladybird? The Green Book? Is there anything illegitimate in those movies for example? (Now I have the temptation to mention here so many old movies with political messages or socally relevant).

I guess I do not understand the "virtual signaling social issues" thing. Are you worried that a movie will "claim moral superiority" for being (i.e.) feminist? Does it make you feel uncomfortable?

[Kyriakos]

Movies don't have moral superiority regardless. I mean... at best a movie is still a rather low-level art product. But it shouldn't became a free for all where art isn't even a thought in the producers' minds.

[Knight of Heaven]

I guess I do not understand the "virtual signaling social issues" thing. Are you worried that a movie will "claim moral superiority" for being (i.e.) feminist? Does it make you feel uncomfortable?

I telling you it doesn't make it necessarily a good or relevant movie. That is my point.

We live in a macho society that treats minorities with little respect. That is a fact, and to say that in other places society is more macho or cruel is a very bad excuse not to continue fighting here.

That is debatable, in my country for example, the poorest and most forgotten people are often not minorities. The poorest regions in my country for example, it has very low minority population. This isn't as black and white as some people make it out to be, it is a complicated issue.

And the so called fight against macho societies today, it resumes itself very often in what men should and shouldn't watch, or consume, how to dress, how to sit, and how to speak, what art should be showed and shouldn't on women's anatomy, what comedy is acceptable and which isn't, in the views of a modern feminist lens. We are worried about lowering grades requisitions for women only to enter in university engineer courses.
With things like Mansplaning, and manspreading, and other superficial nonsensical stuff. In Germany for example there is already sex segregated cars on subway, not unlike those you see in Indonesia, Iran, Egypt and such, plans for doing it in UK, and Australia exist as well. In Spain Manspreading is a actually a thing, and you get fined because of it.
We are walking backwards in a lot of ways. Due to this neo Puritanism, and identitarianism. Which in my opinion, it only fuels the extremes.

Modern feminism in our societies generally speaking is also quite ideological bankrupt. Mostly influenced by far left post modernist ideologies. Usually conflating Patriarchal system with capitalism for example.
Im an egalitarian, and im for freedom. This we are seeing today? it is not the way to fight for it. Imo it fuels division even more.

That said obviously there is fights that need to be fought, issues like domestic violence for example are a problem, and focus on the victims ( which aren't always women) need to be happening.

[mishkin]

In my two replies to your messages I have asked you to talk about specific facts and you keep responding with generic sexist and anti PC ("they want to censor us!!!") diatribes. No, thanks.

[Gromovnik]

Plus, almost nothing in that diatribe was true.

[Knight of Heaven]

Sure i must live in an alternative universe or something. Because im sure you do hold the truth and all the facts yes?

In my two replies to your messages I have asked you to talk about specific facts and you keep responding with generic sexist and anti PC ("they want to censor us!!!") diatribes. No, thanks.

In your own diatribe you keep mention generic stuff as well. And then called it facts. And then you polarize my opinion. If i dont think like you , then i must be sexist, and anti PC.
Because i call it how i see it? I tell you again, painting a movie in a coat of morally virtuous paint doesn't necessarily make said movie, good, relevant, or even worthy of interest. Its just not how art works.

And if you think the modern paranoia on issues of racial, political, social justice, gender issues, etc doesn't exist among general media, and it doesn't affect them in any way what so ever, then i got nothing for you.

Im telling you i dont follow you there. Not on this, in specific.

[Gromovnik]

Are you sure the media are the ones who are being paranoid?

[mishkin]

No, it is a fact that we are at war because our legitimate right to make racist or sexist comments without being criticized is at risk. It is also a fact that film critics defend any film for the mere fact that someone can consider it feminist and that filmmakers introduce progressive messages in their movies to win the favor of both critics and the public (cunning bastards). When critics negatively criticize some "feminist films" (charlies angels, the last elizabeth moss film, the last hathaway "comedy", a long etcetera) they do so only as a smokescreen, and in fact these other feminist or progressive films are financed by large studios (especially Disney) with this unique objective.

Now, I really hate sarcasm. It is totally useless, spoils any attempt at honest debate. But maybe someone clearly seeing such a big nonsense react. Not to say, wake up.

[NorthernXY]

I find it amazing that people can dedicate so much time and passion to a movie they didn't like.

Catharsis.

Yeah typical mishkin, right?


In previous pages I have shown examples of other films with wide differences between criticism and audience. I've also alluded to campaigns launched by certain groups, at least misogynist, to boycott this movie because they consider, like you, that the last jedi is part of some anti (white) men / feminazi campaign, something that is so ridiculous that, again my apologies, I will not waste time responding.

The fact that some consider that there is a hidden agenda behind this movie is what makes that movie "special", not a difference in punctuation in any web page.

Resources?

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Loving where this ended up.