Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 158

Thread: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

  1. #41

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I know how Rotten Tomatoes works. It is a binary choice, which makes their statistics an easy classification statistics. Does that allow for some discrepancies and inaccuracies? Sure. Does this allow for a 44% vs 95% discrepancy where the former movie is clearly the better one? Nope.
    Umm, yes it does. In an aggregation system that's binary, you are going to get extreme variance like this. So yes, good job highlighting the binary nature of Rotten Tomatoes, but I don't know how you reached the conclusion that you did. Its binary nature is what makes such wild discrepancies possible.

    Since people here have quoted the New Yorker either without reading it fully or omitting the less pleasant part on purpose, which directly contradicts their claim, here:
    Actually I just misquoted and mistakenly wrote New Yorker instead of New York Times. Yet my posts easily illustrate that the movie's rating wasn't sabotaged by "film critics" who "who simply cannot stand to have those childish premonitions of good and evil ripped apart in a congruent way." Or are three reviews not enough for you? Shall I find more where critics found issues with its plot structure? With the acting? With the, supposedly, lack of originality? Or literally any point that isn't "muh incels"?

    In other words: He heartedly admits he's been triggered. He just thinks it's best to play it cool.

    It's also beautiful to see statements like these:
    Yeah sure buddy. If people don't agree with you, they surely must be right-wing. Let's just pretend you're not the avowed antidemocrat and anarchocapitalist you frequently present yourself as.
    Lol it doesn't matter what political affiliation you have. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence or research to see your statements on film critics for what they are. Shallow, vapid, and motivated by a political agenda against a perceived intolerant left.

    What is also interesting, is that the conservatives historically have been much more tolerant to art than the left, and less inclined to use it politically. Richard Wagner was in the context of his time a leftie. His operas called for revolution and "free love". Yet he received a lot of praise from the bourgeois.
    While undoubtedly an interesting topic for a research paper, as a general sentiment or a powerful one-liner, your statement is simply not true. The "right" is just as guilty of censorship and intolerance to art as the "left". "Family values" complain just as much about violence as social justice warriors. For every feminist complaint, you'll find veterans or some other demographic whining about how "patriotic" or "un=American" a movie is. Then there's the churches, who can include both angles along with whining about how anti-Christian a movie is.

    So no, I don't, in any way, think that conservatives are more tolerant to art. Especially since some of the strongest opinions on film, come from the right on this very site. As evidenced by a near universal revulsion for The Force Awakens. Of course according to Cookiegod that's just a bad movie. Because you know, his opinion is "apolitical".

    Do I think a piece of art can be highly political and still brilliant? Absolutely. Do I have to agree with anything in the political message for me for me to acknowledge that it's good? Absolutely not.

    And that's where one of the key differences between Sukiyama on one side and me on the other is. I can and do judge the work on its own merits. He on the other hand needs to assert on a regular basis that people disagreeing with him on movies must be "right wing". Be that as it may I really miss the times when the left cheered art such as that of Bertold Brecht and Heinrich & Thomas Mann, rather than whatever lackluster, heartless product a certain billion dollar corporate conglomerate focused on children throws at them.
    I think its hilarious that you're accusing me of being politically motivated. How about you read your opening post? For somebody who wants to claim that they judge a movie based on its merits, and not its political message, you sure seem fixated on political correctness. As are a few posters in this thread.

  2. #42
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Tribunal
    Posts
    12,568

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I'm saying that your statement has as much validity as an arsonist complaining about all the fires he sets in the city. If you accuse people of being right-wing, you choose that topic, irrespective of what the actual topic is. To then blame them for talking politics you really have to be special.
    You have done nothing but confirm my initial idea that many of those who campaign against professional film critics and the most fervent admirers or detractors of certain films (the last jedy, joker) share certain political ideas. If this bothers you, maybe you should have reacted in another way, for example not admitting how much you worry about the fearsome political correction. Or maybe to begin with you should not have started this thread, a "politically incorrect people" recurring theme.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 17, 2019 at 07:53 AM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    You have done nothing but confirm my initial idea that many of those who campaign against professional film critics and the most fervent admirers or detractors of certain films (the last jedy, joker) share certain political ideas. If this bothers you, maybe you should have reacted in another way, for example not admitting how much you worry about the fearsome political correction. Or maybe to begin with you should not have started this thread, a "politically incorrect people" recurring theme.
    And you have confirmed my initial idea that most of rhosed who defend professional film critics also share certain political ideas as well.

  4. #44
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    You have done nothing but confirm my initial idea that many of those who campaign against professional film critics and the most fervent admirers or detractors of certain films (the last jedy, joker) share certain political ideas. If this bothers you, maybe you should have reacted in another way, for example not admitting how much you worry about the fearsome political correction. Or maybe to begin with you should not have started this thread, a "politically incorrect people" recurring theme.
    Oh no. The thought of judging things on their own merit instead of political ideology. What a far right thing.

    So from your point of view maybe yeah, you're right.

    It's like Stephen Fry. He's basically another Tommy Robinson.

    Or like John Cleese. He's basically another Hitler.

    In other words: It's not on me to dispel some ridiculous beliefs you want to have. If you want to play marxist cultural revolution where anyone not sharing your values is basically another fascist, that's on you.

    It's the same as with art itself: You and Sukiyama have that inherent belief that you need to vet people on wrong-think. If they disagree with you even slightly, it's already ok to assume they're wrong-thinkers. And it's them to prove to you that they are innocent. That's some arrogance right there.

    It doesn't work the other way. I have no problem with the left. At least not the one that used to be. The one that was actually left. I do not share your belief that arguments and people can be discarded solely on ad hominem accusations as to what the originator is. Not only do I not share your mindset, I think it to be even wrong to legitimise it. So find someone else to play NKVD-commissar with.

    The fact remains that you and Sukiyama were the ones turning this into a right vs left thing. A concept I don't agree with to begin with. What we see here is a classical example for psychological projection.
    You can't compartmentalise and view things independent of ideology. Therefore you two assume others don't either.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; October 17, 2019 at 11:36 AM.
    "Something funny."
    - not me.







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I'll be more than happy to share my opinion on any film and seeing how they diverge from professional critics. In fact, maybe it would be a fun exercise. Citizen Kane, a boring black and white movie that I had to make myself watch and force myself to finish.

  6. #46
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Tribunal
    Posts
    12,568

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    And you have confirmed my initial idea that most of rhosed who defend professional film critics also share certain political ideas as well.
    a somewhat bold statement in my opinion, but apart from that I have no problem with it
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    marxist cultural revolution
    Say no more

  7. #47
    AqD's Avatar (~‾▿‾)~
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Home
    Posts
    9,983

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I do get that art is subjective, as is taste. But sometimes there isn't even a competition. Michelangelo will always beat any drawing I'll ever make. None of the recent Star Wars movies had any depth. Joker actually succeeded in a similar vein as the Nolan trilogy did: Starting with a premise that's so ridiculously unrealistic and over the top and turning it into something that's actually relevant.
    You're just thinking like a film critic in a slightly different way!

    Why can't people just sit there and feel, instead of thinking logically and trying to analyze stories??


    Everyone but me is crazy these days.

  8. #48
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Say no more
    These guys:


    Though obviously if you want another example this one works just as fine:


    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    You're just thinking like a film critic in a slightly different way!

    Why can't people just sit there and feel, instead of thinking logically and trying to analyze stories??


    Everyone but me is crazy these days.
    Dude, it's not about people having different opinions, it's about one specific entire demographic (film critics) having a completely different opinion than another demographic (audience). And the latter having LESS refined taste than the former I'd get. THE OPPOSITE I do not get.

    And yeah, with those numbers of observations it'd probably be possible to train some machine learning algorithm to predict critics scores. Why you think this is about personal opinion when we're talking about hundreds and tens of thousands is beyond me.
    "Something funny."
    - not me.







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    It's the same as with art itself: You and Sukiyama have that inherent belief that you need to vet people on wrong-think. If they disagree with you even slightly, it's already ok to assume they're wrong-thinkers. And it's them to prove to you that they are innocent. That's some arrogance right there.
    Instead it's the film critics, the one who're supposed to be the ones with the refined taste, the ones with the brains, who simply cannot stand to have those childish premonitions of good and evil ripped apart in a congruent way.

    I do get that art is subjective, as is taste. But sometimes there isn't even a competition. Michelangelo will always beat any drawing I'll ever make. None of the recent Star Wars movies had any depth. Joker actually succeeded in a similar vein as the Nolan trilogy did: Starting with a premise that's so ridiculously unrealistic and over the top and turning it into something that's actually relevant.

    Seriously. Not everyone liking a movie I get. Audience having a less refined taste in movies I'd get.

    Film critics having a less refined audience than the audience and hating on a character driven story whilst loving a really, really dumb one I don't get.

    So my question to you is: How da fug did this hilarious disconnect between film critics and audience come to be?!
    Is it because of the overall decline of journalism?! Is it because "film critic" is the job title of a person who's failed life and has actually less brain than the average? Are they unable to take a step back and simply critique anything on its own merits, rather than do so based on how it conforms to their world view?
    I don't think you see the irony.

  10. #50
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I don't think you do either.
    "Something funny."
    - not me.







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I don't think you do either.
    Huh

  12. #52
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Is it ironic that me calling for art being criticised regardless of politics is something radically political? Yes it is.
    Is it ironic that you can't debate the actual argument on its merit, and have to rip stuff out of context time and again? Yes it is.

    The conversation has gone full circle already. This is where I'd remind you, Mr. echochamber, once again that we're talking about a discrepancy of more than 50% in the vote score. Obviously you know that's the context of the quote, you just don't care.

    Now you can pretend you know statistics, but if you did, you wouldn't be making the case you are. A binary answer doesn't allow for this huge a discrepancy. This is a simple example of a classification task. Given time and enough motivation, I would probably be able to train some machine learning algorithm to predict what score movie critics would give a movie based on some of the parameters. It is painfully obvious though that the critiques overall aren't based on the quality of the movies themselves. This is where you'll tell me to want art criticised on its own merits and being against censorship, including that under the label of "political correctness" is right wing these days, and in your world it possibly is. In mine it's not. Now I could remind you again who amongst us doesn't believe in democracy, etc. etc., but that would make me like you. I believe that the arguments should be able to stand on their own. You don't however, which is where you'll go back from ad hominem inquisition based on inferred political beliefs that aren't even close to the mark, to rip that quote out of context and say that's the same as me stating with a high degree of confidence that there's nothing whatsoever that can justify a >50% difference on these two movies, at least not based on artistic merit alone. Which is where the circle goes on and on, unless someone's got sense enough to pull the brake. Which I'm doing now. Far too late, I'll admit, but better late than never.
    "Something funny."
    - not me.







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Is it ironic that me calling for art being criticised regardless of politics is something radically political? Yes it is.
    Is it ironic that you can't debate the actual argument on its merit, and have to rip stuff out of context time and again? Yes it is.
    Neither of those things happened. What I did was point out the hypocrisy in your rhetoric.

    As you said, you're asking for art to be criticized regardless of politics. Yet in this very thread, you, and the people "agreeing" with you, attribute the mixed critical reception of Joker and the near universal critical praise of The Last Jedi to political correctness of, the obviously insinuated, left-wing critics who have no taste in art. I'm also not sure where I ripped stuff out of context. I copy-pasted pretty much the entirety of your argument. You weren't exactly subtle or nuanced in your point.
    Moreover, I demonstrated that more than half of the negative reviews of the first page criticize the movie on its artistic merits, and made it a point to de-emphasize the alleged "alt right" political message of the film. So I'm not sure if you actually didn't read the reviews and simply jumped to conclusions, or if you're simply being dishonest.


    The conversation has gone full circle already. This is where I'd remind you, Mr. echochamber, once again that we're talking about a discrepancy of more than 50% in the vote score. Obviously you know that's the context of the quote, you just don't care.

    Now you can pretend you know statistics, but if you did, you wouldn't be making the case you are. A binary answer doesn't allow for this huge a discrepancy. This is a simple example of a classification task. Given time and enough motivation, I would probably be able to train some machine learning algorithm to predict what score movie critics would give a movie based on some of the parameters. It is painfully obvious though that the critiques overall aren't based on the quality of the movies themselves. This is where you'll tell me to want art criticised on its own merits and being against censorship, including that under the label of "political correctness" is right wing these days, and in your world it possibly is. In mine it's not. Now I could remind you again who amongst us doesn't believe in democracy, etc. etc., but that would make me like you. I believe that the arguments should be able to stand on their own. You don't however, which is where you'll go back from ad hominem inquisition based on inferred political beliefs that aren't even close to the mark, to rip that quote out of context and say that's the same as me stating with a high degree of confidence that there's nothing whatsoever that can justify a >50% difference on these two movies, at least not based on artistic merit alone. Which is where the circle goes on and on, unless someone's got sense enough to pull the brake. Which I'm doing now. Far too late, I'll admit, but better late than never.
    It seems to me that art is already being judged on its own artistic merits. It's just that a certain subset of the population, including you, are unhappy with the assessment given by "professional" critics and attribute the discrepancy between your opinion and theirs to politicization of the medium, rather than a simple difference in opinion. I think the criticism of the new Star Wars trilogy is fairly damning in my accusations, considering that the New Trilogy and the Original Trilogy are essentially the same exact movies with different characters. The lack of originality is precisely the source of my dissatisfaction with the new films, but not because Rey is a Mary Sue, the plot not making sense, or simply "the movie being bad". This thread reads like bad cliche.

  14. #54
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Me saying that inquisition is bad and that a 50+% difference is hardly justifiable have hardly anything to do with one another and is hypocrisy in your warped mind alone.
    "Something funny."
    - not me.







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  15. #55
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Tribunal
    Posts
    12,568

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Seriously... What's wrong with the audience?

    Maleficent: Mistress of Evil:

    Tomatometer: 43%
    Audience score: 96%

    Gemini Man

    Tomatometer: 25%
    Audience score: 84%

    3 From Hell:

    Tomatometer: 50%
    Audience score: 71%
    I could spend the afternoon adding examples, but no.

    On the other hand, I've been thinking about movies that I didn't like "for political reasons". A recent one from a semi famous actor (cant recall the name) in which it seemed to me that some Mossad agents were going to be portrayed as sisters of charity, so I stopped watching. Another for children, which contained in my opinion very crude religious messages (are those "political reasons"?).

    Finally, out of curiosity, could someone tell me what the political message in the movie is for which film critics would be punishing Joker? Broadly speaking, I don't know, guys, if you have a theory about a conspiracy among movie critics, at least explain it.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 18, 2019 at 08:58 AM.

  16. #56
    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    1,742

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Finally, out of curiosity, could someone tell me what the political message in the movie is for which film critics would be punishing Joker? Broadly speaking, I don't know, guys, if you have a theory about a conspiracy among movie critics, at least explain it.
    I don't know man. I did not come up with the conspiracy theory that anyone disliking PC is basically Hitler. So basically you have yourself to ask?

    And how did a multibillion corporation focused on children's entertainment become the fetish for the "left"?

    Maybe explain that one first? Calling us conspiracy theorists and simultaneously be mad about us not delivering one is hilarious.
    "Something funny."
    - not me.







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  17. #57
    irontaino's Avatar Deadass B
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    3,799

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    You know, it's really amusing to see people complain about the SJW echo chamber by creating their own echo chamber.
    Most of the people who cry "REEEEE political correctness!!1!" Are just outraged by the presence of non white, non male protagonists.

    As for Joker, I give it 9 societies out of 10.
    Fact:Apples taste good, and you can throw them at people if you're being attacked
    Under the patronage of big daddy Elfdude



  18. #58
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Tribunal
    Posts
    12,568

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    hilarious.
    Indeed. Bizarre conclusions and out of tune comments. I have simply asked you to explain the cause for which you think film critics have been coordinated to punish the movie Joker and reward the film The Last Jedi. (I had the decency to explain why I said what I said).
    Last edited by mishkin; October 18, 2019 at 02:07 PM.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I think film critics just shouldn't dictate your opinion anyway. If I remember correctly, one of my favorite childhood movies, Starship Troopers (1997), was panned globally on its release. 20 years after release, people are finally starting to appreciate the film as much as me. Or perhaps it took several terrible movies and spin-offs to make the original look much better. Anyway, the point is, critics can get it wrong, and even if they don't, you should have your own opinion anyway.

  20. #60
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Tribunal
    Posts
    12,568

    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I am almost certain that none of those present here we agree even fifty percent with any list made by critics of "ten best films in history".

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •