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Thread: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

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    Cookiegod's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Icon5 Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!


    Two screens I made and cropped just now. If you switch from "All critics" to "Top critics", the approval rate of Joker goes down to 44% and that of the last Jedi goes up to 95%!

    I went to watch the Joker movie yesterday with extremely low expectations. I don't like superhero movies, the first two Nolan-Batman movies being the exception. But still. I went there to see what all the fuzz was about.

    All the incel hysteria etc. had ZERO to do with the movie. ZERO. The movie does not make any easily discernable political statements.
    Are the rich the evil or the mob? Meh, doesn't really matter. The Joker doesn't care.

    The only statement I'd say is overt in this movie, is that everyone's being an these days, that an amalgamation of certain factors can lead to terrible things. The Joker himself asks for more civility on air. But this message doesn't really take much space, and it's only controversial to people who have this retarded understanding of those crazy shooters being simply evil after watching the wrong movies and obviously playing Computer games.

    Anyway... I found this movie and the last jedi are pretty much a good comparison, in that they're pretty much the opposite. In the last Jedi every plot twist is unpredictable but makes the story worse, and neither the characters nor the story itself are logical. The superheroine Rey has zero flaws, as political correctness dictates she needs to fulfill both the female and male archetypes of a hero.

    Joker was completely unpredictable to me, most assumptions I had were wrong (though partly because I expected the movie to be worse), every plot twist made the movie better, didn't subvert the rest but enriched it.


    Obviously I wouldn't say the movie is for everyone. The movie didn't shy away from cringe but full-on embraced it. The social awkwardness was more painful to watch than any of the violence.
    I didn't buy into the protagonist at first. Mostly again, because of low expectations. The movie actually succeeded to portray the Joker as someone realistic. The movie is slow in the beginning. It doesn't make clear where it's heading right away. You don't get to understand the protagonist right away. It is ambiguous and Joaquin Phoenix, whom you see in almost every shot, doesn't hold your hand. So I would perfectly well understand if the overall audience score had been abysmal. But no: 90%.

    Instead it's the film critics, the one who're supposed to be the ones with the refined taste, the ones with the brains, who simply cannot stand to have those childish premonitions of good and evil ripped apart in a congruent way.





    I do get that art is subjective, as is taste. But sometimes there isn't even a competition. Michelangelo will always beat any drawing I'll ever make. None of the recent Star Wars movies had any depth. Joker actually succeeded in a similar vein as the Nolan trilogy did: Starting with a premise that's so ridiculously unrealistic and over the top and turning it into something that's actually relevant.

    Seriously. Not everyone liking a movie I get. Audience having a less refined taste in movies I'd get.

    Film critics having a less refined audience than the audience and hating on a character driven story whilst loving a really, really dumb one I don't get.

    So my question to you is: How da fug did this hilarious disconnect between film critics and audience come to be?!
    Is it because of the overall decline of journalism?! Is it because "film critic" is the job title of a person who's failed life and has actually less brain than the average? Are they unable to take a step back and simply critique anything on its own merits, rather than do so based on how it conforms to their world view?
    What the hell happened?
    Last edited by Cookiegod; October 13, 2019 at 09:26 AM.
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    You should see literature departments at universities these days. Graduate students don't even learn about aesthetics anymore. These days, works of art are judged on the basis of social impact. Art for art's sake is never on the mind of those critics. They do not want to admit that there are artistic archetypes that naturally connect with the human soul. They do not want to admit that there are immutable standards of aesthetics and truth.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    They get paid.
    They did the same thing for Bright and Godzilla King of Monsters. Both enjoyable films that critics didn't like.
    Where as trash like Last Jedi they give a 90% score even though it is one of the worst and most boring films I ever saw.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post

    Two screens I made and cropped just now. If you switch from "All critics" to "Top critics", the approval rate of Joker goes down to 44% and that of the last Jedi goes up to 95%!

    I went to watch the Joker movie yesterday with extremely low expectations. I don't like superhero movies, the first two Nolan-Batman movies being the exception. But still. I went there to see what all the fuzz was about.

    All the incel hysteria etc. had ZERO to do with the movie. ZERO. The movie does not make any easily discernable political statements.
    Are the rich the evil or the mob? Meh, doesn't really matter. The Joker doesn't care.

    The only statement I'd say is overt in this movie, is that everyone's being an these days, that an amalgamation of certain factors can lead to terrible things. The Joker himself asks for more civility on air. But this message doesn't really take much space, and it's only controversial to people who have this retarded understanding of those crazy shooters being simply evil after watching the wrong movies and obviously playing Computer games.

    Anyway... I found this movie and the last jedi are pretty much a good comparison, in that they're pretty much the opposite. In the last Jedi every plot twist is unpredictable but makes the story worse, and neither the characters nor the story itself are logical. The superheroine Rey has zero flaws, as political correctness dictates she needs to fulfill both the female and male archetypes of a hero.

    Joker was completely unpredictable to me, most assumptions I had were wrong (though partly because I expected the movie to be worse), every plot twist made the movie better, didn't subvert the rest but enriched it.


    Obviously I wouldn't say the movie is for everyone. The movie didn't shy away from cringe but full-on embraced it. The social awkwardness was more painful to watch than any of the violence.
    I didn't buy into the protagonist at first. Mostly again, because of low expectations. The movie actually succeeded to portray the Joker as someone realistic. The movie is slow in the beginning. It doesn't make clear where it's heading right away. You don't get to understand the protagonist right away. It is ambiguous and Joaquin Phoenix, whom you see in almost every shot, doesn't hold your hand. So I would perfectly well understand if the overall audience score had been abysmal. But no: 90%.

    Instead it's the film critics, the one who're supposed to be the ones with the refined taste, the ones with the brains, who simply cannot stand to have those childish premonitions of good and evil ripped apart in a congruent way.





    I do get that art is subjective, as is taste. But sometimes there isn't even a competition. Michelangelo will always beat any drawing I'll ever make. None of the recent Star Wars movies had any depth. Joker actually succeeded in a similar vein as the Nolan trilogy did: Starting with a premise that's so ridiculously unrealistic and over the top and turning it into something that's actually relevant.

    Seriously. Not everyone liking a movie I get. Audience having a less refined taste in movies I'd get.

    Film critics having a less refined audience than the audience and hating on a character driven story whilst loving a really, really dumb one I don't get.

    So my question to you is: How da fug did this hilarious disconnect between film critics and audience come to be?!
    Is it because of the overall decline of journalism?! Is it because "film critic" is the job title of a person who's failed life and has actually less brain than the average? Are they unable to take a step back and simply critique anything on its own merits, rather than do so based on how it conforms to their world view?
    What the hell happened?
    Maybe the film was rated poorly by the critics because it did not push some political agenda. The Last Jedi pushed correct political views and was loved by critics. The Joker didn't push the political correct views, and so was not liked by critics. Even though the movie didn't oppose politically correct views, that is not enough for these critics. If youndont push the right politics in a heavy handed manner, the film is no good. Had rhe rich been portrayed.as evil.Trump supporters deserving what happened to them, rhe critics would have loved the film.

    The same thing is true for Ad Astra, a bad film loved by the critics. The film was terrible, the space ship designs were poor and not logical, everyone acted like they were in 1 G instead of being in low g environment, the people did not behaveogicslly, the science in the movie was bad. But because it pushed some politically correct trite message at the end, critics.lovrd it. These days, it is all about the politically correct message of the film, not the quality of acting or if the film is really good. If the message is corrects rhe film is good. And if is not enough to be just neutral. The film has tonactivrly push the politically correct views.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; October 16, 2019 at 11:58 AM. Reason: typo correction

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    The problem was that the Joker wasn't black. I think it is pretty self-evident that the reviews would look much different.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Would it? I honestly don't know what their standards are. They can get mad for all kinds of reasons. I don't even get why they're mad at this movie in the first place. Well yeah, they say it's because it's about a white male serial killer. If he was black wouldn't they simply complain that they make a black protagonist a criminal serial killer?
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    You never wonder what's wrong with a very vocal segment of the audience?

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    You never wonder what's wrong with a very vocal segment of the audience?
    hm? Explain please.
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Well there's always been a segment of art critics, including film critics, who're just impossible to please, incredibly snobbish, label everyone a hack, and only enjoy obscure European arthouse flicks (in American media, Armond White is a good example). I guess you could call them the old school guys.
    And then there's the rest, who have devolved into what Diamat just described. At least the first category has something resembling an education; the new breed only cares about ideological conformity and doesn't even know any of the classics. It's worth pointing out though that not all critics who expect ideological conformity and judge everything on the basis of their personal morals are SJWs. Some are adherents of traditional religions, as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    You should see literature departments at universities these days. Graduate students don't even learn about aesthetics anymore. These days, works of art are judged on the basis of social impact. Art for art's sake is never on the mind of those critics. They do not want to admit that there are artistic archetypes that naturally connect with the human soul. They do not want to admit that there are immutable standards of aesthetics and truth.
    Exactly. They want everything to be "educational", of course in line with their own ideology.


    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Maybe the film was rated poorly bynrhr critics because it did not push some political agenda. The Last Jedi pushed correct political views and was loved by critics. The Joker didn't push the political correct views, and so was not liked by critics. Even though the movie didn't oppose politically correct views, that is not enough for these critics. If youndont push the right politics in a heavy handed manner, the film is no good. Had rhe rich been portrayed.as evil.Trump supporters deserving what happened to them, rhe critics would have loved the film.

    The same thing is true for Ad Astra, a bad film loved by the critics. The film was terrible, the space ship designs were poor and not logical, everyone acted like they were in 1 G instead of being in low g environment, the people did not behaveogicslly, the science in the movie was bad. But because it pushed some politically correct trite message at the end, critics.lovrd it. These days, it is all about the politically correct message of the film, not the quality of acting or if the film is really good. If the message is corrects rhe film is good. And if is not enough to be just neutral. The film has tonactivrly push the politically correct views.
    And Captain Marvel (critics love it, regular people say it's awful), and Dave Chappelle's latest Netflix special (opposite reaction), and probably many more... same pattern of discrepancy.

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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    hm? Explain please.
    Do not you think that a portion of the population may have a very bad taste? Furthermore, you have never heard of a portion of the population, with a certain ideology (against pc, etc.) and very active in social networks, who feels animosity towards any academic figure and thinks they are more prepared than (i.e.) professional film critics (globally, not even a specific critic or webpage)?
    Last edited by mishkin; October 16, 2019 at 12:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Would it? I honestly don't know what their standards are. They can get mad for all kinds of reasons. I don't even get why they're mad at this movie in the first place. Well yeah, they say it's because it's about a white male serial killer. If he was black wouldn't they simply complain that they make a black protagonist a criminal serial killer?
    Doubtful. They would see it is a reference to the heroic struggle of Black Lives Matter against police brutality. And the killing of the white rich kids would be seen as a heroic struggle against white privilege.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Do not you think that a portion of the population may have a very bad taste? Furthermore, you have never heard of a portion of the population, with a certain ideology (against pc, etc.) and very active in social networks, who feels animosity towards any academic figure and thinks they are more prepared than (i.e.) professional film critics (globally, not even a specific critic or webpage)?
    Newsflash, the Joker was apolitical, and Joker didn't kill a single minority. IN FACT all the minorities were portrayed positively.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; October 16, 2019 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Personal.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Oh, you felt attacked, I wonder why.

    I haven't seen the movie yet, I don't know if it's political or not, but its defenders and those who carry it as a banner have certain common features.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I saw it, thought it was kind of boring actually. Albeit the performances were pretty good.

    But my point is your response was quite dumb and disingenuous. Your claiming that anyone who likes or dislikes X or Y movie must be for political reasons is actually really dumb.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 17, 2019 at 02:21 AM. Reason: Insinuation part removed

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    I have talked about the close defenders of the movie and those who attack film critics as a collective with rather weak arguments (or just silly rants). Any movie can be politicized by some band of idiots (i.e: matrix, i.e: the last jedi, i.e: the joker), that does not mean that all people who enjoy that movie (or dislike it) are.

    Can you explain your angry response?
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 17, 2019 at 02:22 AM. Reason: For continuity

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Do not you think that a portion of the population may have a very bad taste? Furthermore, you have never heard of a portion of the population, with a certain ideology (against pc, etc.) and very active in social networks, who feels animosity towards any academic figure and thinks they are more prepared than (i.e.) professional film critics (globally, not even a specific critic or webpage)?
    That is the excuse that critics make when they accuse the audience of doing what in fact the critics are doing.

    It is the critics, not the audiences, who are pushing an agenda. While critics have accused the low audience scores on some movies to only a vocal minority, that has been investigated and found not to be the case.

    The low auudience scores in movies like Ad Astra were not just do to few vocal people not liking the movie, it due to it is not being a good movie.

    There will always be some difference in the taste between critics and the general audience. Movie critics see a lot of movies, regularly, and after having seen the same theme a hundreth time, can get a little jaded. Audiences, who see far fewer movies, might not be bothered by what critics see is rhe lack of originality. They want to be entertained, not view a great work of art.

    But lately, the critics seem to have thrown out all pretense of trying to determine if an audience will like a film, or if it is entertaining. It seems films are being judged upon if they are promoting the right social views. Even if the film doesn't go against the right social values, if is just neutral oe indifferent, that is not enough it seems for critics.these days. The film has to actively promote the politically correct views or the movie is regarded as no good. . It is a sign of how politicized the media, for which these critics work, has become.

    After the The Last Jedi, I thought it was just a one time thing. That maybe the clout off Disney had influenced the critic. But after the Joker and Ad Astra, I realized it is a lot more. It is not just the case of studio's buying critics, that would work for only positive reviews, but it more that movies are now building judged more on their social content than their entertainment value. The best thing we can regarding critics is ignore them.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Do not you think that a portion of the population may have a very bad taste? Furthermore, you have never heard of a portion of the population, with a certain ideology (against pc, etc.) and very active in social networks, who feels animosity towards any academic figure and thinks they are more prepared than (i.e.) professional film critics (globally, not even a specific critic or webpage)?
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Oh, you felt attacked, I wonder why.

    I haven't seen the movie yet, I don't know if it's political or not, but its defenders and those who carry it as a banner have certain common features.
    Well first of all, "the audience" is pretty much everyone. So some of them will not share your ideology, some of them won't share my taste. No s..t Sherlock? Like I said in my OP: Audience having a bad taste I'd get.
    Secondly, given that there's no other relation between your vague referral to some nasty people with forbidden thoughts and what this topic is actually about, your response is the posterchild of defensive whataboutism. If your first go-to counter to my question as to how critics have become so bad at this is to claim that those liking the movie are right-wing, you're clearly admitting defeat from the get go.
    Third, if people feel attacked after you insinuated they are right wing, doesn't mean they are confirming it, it just means they can take a hint.
    Fourth, like I said: Part of the audience being a bunch of douches I'd get. If your defense of movie critics is to refer to some fedora hat wearers and rednecks, well, I expect a higher standard from movie critics than some angry people off the internet.
    Fifth, I'd get a dissonance between audience and critics scores if the movie was Jackass (in which case critics might give it a bad score and audience a good one) or some highly intellectual movie (in which case it could be the other way, as the audience might not get it).

    But the dissonance as showcased by TLJ and the joker offers no such excuse.

    Sixth, yeah: I'll admit I feel threatened by PC people. That doesn't make me right wing. It puts me on the same lane as e.g. Stephen Fry, John Cleese, and many others. I do not like any totalitarian ideology that hunts down people accused of wrong-think and suffocates all kinds of art. I think a piece of art should be judged on its own merits. It can be highly political. It can purport a horrible ideology which I'd not support and still be brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Any movie can be politicized by some band of idiots (i.e: matrix, i.e: the last jedi, i.e: the joker), that does not mean that all people who enjoy that movie (or dislike it) are.
    Well then what was the point of your argument to begin with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    Doubtful. They would see it is a reference to the heroic struggle of Black Lives Matter against police brutality. And the killing of the white rich kids would be seen as a heroic struggle against white privilege.
    But the murders aren't being portrayed as something good. So I'm pretty sure some people would feel angry about that. But that's part of what I hate about outrage-culture. It's hard to predict and anticipate. At least to me it is. I still cannot follow as to why they hate this one. I mean, I understand the words, not the thoughts behind those.

    I still think you're probably more on the right track overall. Better not attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. I think/hope that the movie industry isn't bribing the critics on a massive scale.
    Many of those critics coming out of college brainwashed and completely unable to judge art on its own merits seems the more likely explanation.
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Gotta disagree with the verbiage so far.

    First unless somebody is slumming be honest some other guy is getting paid to review art or watch movies. It does mean at a minimum they can put together a more coherent 'post' than most people on the net, but let's be fair there is some jealousy here.

    Second. Anyone persons view is going to be any one persons view. Period, end of story.

    Third I liked it and they did not is not an argument. It bar talk. Diverging into the why they did not like for political reasons in bar talk with a couple beers or more.

    ----

    OK I'll make a bet. Anyone want to send me their real email and we can find and try to watch every best picture that won or was nominated for Oscar and also then spend the time to to see if we have a vote for a better movie in our perception that either should have won or lacked a nomination for every year?

    But as you can see its easy to find a list of other winners.

    https://www.vulture.com/article/best...re-losers.html

    So the Joker. Not seen it. But the fact is I am suffering from significant comic book - to movie exhaustion. It could be High Noon good and I would dislike it just for what it is.

    But as for serious reviews I see no particular lefty snow flack agenda here just board at seeing something already done but not as well or just punching buttons.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...aughing-matter

    But the simple fact is somethings popularity is not necessarily a measure of its staying power, nor is staying power over time something that leads to immediate popularity. In that thought consider Carmen one of the most popular Operas ever produced yet it with distain and meh from both audience and critic in its open run.

    -------------

    The movie actually succeeded to portray the Joker as someone realistic
    He is supposed to be? Really a comic villain that can stand up to Batman over and over again...

    Do I really need a backstory that he was what a deary social misfit at one time with possibly some metal defect?


    ---------------


    Sixth, yeah: I'll admit I feel threatened by PC people. That doesn't make me right wing. It puts me on the same lane as e.g. Stephen Fry, John Cleese, and many others. I do not like any totalitarian ideology that hunts down people accused of wrong-think and suffocates all kinds of art. I think a piece of art should be judged on its own merits. It can be highly political. It can purport a horrible ideology which I'd not support and still be brilliant.
    How many county fairs have you been too. Sometimes its fair to say that passable art at best or nice sketch but not more and not have some agenda.

    So you have a dug a bit fort here you are demanding that the move can only be deemed bad or simply work-a-day effort if that is a political opinion per-conceived. So I can't say Gone with the Wind in review is a nasty bit of racist fantasy southern apology that makes me throw up a bit bit in my mouth every time I see it. After all I would be reviewing the whole piece of art. So I grant technically and acting wise for the the time it was a well crafted film but I would have rather gone to see Dark Victory and if my review back in the day for paper X convinced you of that I would be happy.
    Last edited by conon394; October 16, 2019 at 03:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    You know, it's really amusing to see people complain about the SJW echo chamber by creating their own echo chamber.
    Last edited by Love Mountain; October 16, 2019 at 03:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Seriously... What's wrong with film critics?!

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Second. Anyone persons view is going to be any one persons view. Period, end of story.

    Third I liked it and they did not is not an argument. It bar talk.
    Good sir, ever heard of such a thing as statistics?

    I am not talking about that one specific person in the audience liking it and that one specific critic not liking it. You can look up the statistics on rotten tomatoes yourself. I cannot help you if you do not know what "%" means. Because that's the very simple basis that has your entire argument fall apart.

    I have never cared about Star Wars. I never cared about Snoke. That doesn't change the fact how stupid the movie was (I blame it more on JJ Abrams than on Rian Johnson though), especially compared to the 90% score it got. But fine, maybe their bar is extremely low?

    Joker proves that's not the case. I am not a DC fan or Marvel fan either. But certain things can be said with a high degree of certainty. TLJ being a much much much better movie than Joker (95%! vs 44%!) is about as likely as me being a better singer than Beyoncé. My voice just ain't got that ring to it.

    And just because Carmen is the most popular opera doesn't make it the best one. Which brings me back to this: Imagine the audience preferring Götterdämmerung and the opera critics Carmen whilst panning Götterdämmerung. That would leave me confused as well. (o_O)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    You know, it's really amusing to see people complain about the SJW echo chamber by creating their own echo chamber.
    He said smugly, not realising the irony in his unique approach to defend a 95% approval rating for a lackluster movie.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; October 16, 2019 at 03:46 PM.
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