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Thread: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

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    Default [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    Hello,


    Citizenship is now in a crisis. What is citizenship and what is its purpose?
    Before I answer that question, let's us have a look at some data that I had collected.
    Number of patrons | Successful Applications = Ration of Patron to Successful Application
    2004: 20* | 99 = 4.9
    *16 Unknown patrons. Also, the Patronage system was not established yet)

    2005: 55 | 142 = 2.6
    2006: 66 | 128 = 1.9
    2007: 66 | 162 = 2.5
    2008: 55 | 90 = 1.7
    2009: 49 | 92 = 1.9
    2010: 43 | 72 = 1.7
    2011: 33 | 70 = 2.1
    2012: 31 | 47 = 1.4
    2013: 20 | 36 = 1.8
    2014: 25 | 35 = 1.4
    2015: 16 | 28 = 1.8
    2016: 10 | 24 = 2.4
    2017: 08 | 12 = 1.5
    2018: 13 | 25 = 1.9



    So, how did we get from 55+ Patrons a year to under 20? In 2017 we had just 8 Patrons. An argument has been made that there is little to no interest in the Curia. Reasons cited are infighting or the lack of any real voice. In the beginning, there was a great deal of "buzz" and excitement to virtually no "buzz." It is also important to point out that activity in the Curia does not necessarily translate with activity sitewide. In order to understand the problems of today we must understand history and through the study of history, we will gain perspective for a better solution.

    Before you read, here are some key terms to know;
    Civitates - Standard Civitates without the privilege to Patronise new Civitates.
    Patricians - Civitates in good standing who have been civitates two months or longer without receiving an official warning.
    Senatorii - Some of the original founding TWC members and subsequent ex-staff members.
    Curators - Existing TWC staff members. Triumvirs, Praetors, and Quaestors.

    Let's venture to the humble beginnings of the Curia.

    Kazak borispavlovgrozny (12 Dec. 2003)
    Any member with 50 posts or more and deems himself to be a contributing member in good standing may seek the nomination and patronage of any Curator for Civitate status. The Curators will then review the members? posts and vote for his possible ascendancy into Civitate status. The vote will be in the form of a majority, and upon approval, the Civitate will hold all rights as granted by letters patent, a vote in the Curia and a voice in His Forum.
    A nomination which does not win majority voted must abide by Amendments I-III as set forth in the Syntagma.
    As proposed by NM and TBP
    *NM refers to GodEmperor Nicholas. TBP or tBP is the Black Prince.

    This was further reiterated by the Black Prince. (source)
    well, as I helped to write it, I'm fully behind this idea.i just think its important to mention that being a civitate is not some kind of staff member thing,that they are still a member, the only difference is they get to vote in the curia, and I think, non civitates don't get to post in the curia either, (not sure there, but it would be a damn good idea&#33.


    we can set it up so that there is no difference between members and civitiates apart from the curia bit
    A year later when I proposal was made, GodEmperor Nicholas responded with this post in response. The bold was done by me.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by GodEmperor Nicholas View Post
    Rules are voted on, and then they are changed. Rub (rubulula) can start the resolution if he so wishes, and commence the vote. I personally disagree, however, and I will state my reasoning as clearly as I can.


    The civitates are doing there job brilliantly. When I say this, I mean the class as an entity has succeeded in every way we had hoped when we conceived of it several months ago. Our objectives were:


    1) To provide a smaller more intimate environment in which good members could post more intellectual material. The smaller community would serve to slow down the pace and increase the intimacy of the environment so that posts could really reach a zenith in depth of thought.


    2) To serve as a inspiration to the rest of the forum, so that members, in aspiring to join this elite group, would, in turn, demonstrate this worth through merit, good actions, and worthy debate, and in doing so enlarge and advance the purpose of this forum, which is to act as a conduit of discussion between individuals of different race, nationality, sex, etc. and in doing so, enlarge and expand the intellectual breadth of its members.


    In both these respects, the Civitate systems have succeeded. The symposium has been a place of, dare I say, an enlightened debate between truly the most respected and noteworthy members of the forum. This has served to grow the userbase of this forum by a truly epic proportion but still maintain a clearly organized, serious component of this forum. Many, many members have sought to become civitates, and as a resul,t the post quality of the whole forum has increased as more and more people seek to demonstrate there worth to a patron.


    The reforms suggested by Rububula would, In my humble opinion, endanger this system. By diluting the civitate pool, we are possibly allowing the very city on a hill of our forum to become overrun, and the basis of the hexagon councils plan for a post-Rome total war world to be swept aside in hopes of making this elite cadre more "inclusive".


    The system is not flawed. The real people to blame are the patrons, for they are expected to be interested in finding excellent members to nominate and gain clients. The very responsibility of this system lies in the individual, not the government. If you notice, by far the most members with Clients are the staff members, as Boris, Siblez and myself have 15 great civitates between us. We have been acting in our capacity to enlarge the civitate base with the rules, and we are finding ample members. I think before we change the rules and make it easier for other members, we must first ask if this failure is not from some other reasoning--that of the participation of the citizens. Smoke has nominated several civitates, and I am quite sure if one member can find 5, then we are just touching the very beginnings of this deep pond of talent.


    So go out and find good members! We of the staff are still a very small group, and we have other duties. It should be your responsibility to find members, and that is how the system works. Just making the entry exams easier will only revert us to the days of rabble and the problems that came with it.


    NM


    When Civitates were first suggested (that is the manner that they would be initially suggested, the term "exclusive" was thrown out. As I have tried to argue that Citizenship is not, nor was it ever intended to be "exclusive. Any member with a good quality contribution is entitled to becoming a Civitate. Over time, the requirements have become bloated and far too high. It is clear that citizenship was never meant to be a private group in which members have to jump through hoops to become a part of. Below are the quotations of the minor discussion between morble and Black Prince

    In a previous thread with a similar name, there was this interesting exchange between morble and the Black Prince. Once again the bold is my doing.
    morble (source)
    uh, fine, I nominate all of them. B)

    (How exclusive did you want to make this civitate club, anyway?)
    and
    the Black Prince (Source)
    inclusive would be a better word, as in it includes everyone but the spammers from voting (and spamming) on forum issues
    In the beginning, the process was simple. If you met the below standard, that member can be nominated. See in the spoiler
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Any member with 75 posts or more and deemed to be a contributing member in good standing may be nominated and patronized of any Curator or Patrician for Civitate status. Any members who directly request said status (by posting asking to be nominated) will be denied it outright. The Curators will then review the members' posts and vote for his possible ascendancy into Civitate status.
    With the exception of the 75 posts, the standard was much lower than the standard employed today.


    GodEmperor Nicholas summarizes the "new Client System>" and the official patronage system was born.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodEmperor Nicholas View Post
    As you may have recognized, part of the new civitate system is the client system like ancient Romans had. The nominator of a new civitate to take personal responsibility for his new member in order to encourage only worthy, good members to be nominated.


    So far the only purpose is that we assume people will only nominate good members, because otherwise they look like idiots, and are partly responsible, for poor members being made civitates.


    At present however there is nothing else that can be seen as a benefit or rationale behind the client system, so I am asking the civitates to offer any possible ideas or reasoning behind it. This is a good time because we have just started this new system and we might as well implement it well from the start.


    So any ideas or comments are appreciated.


    Obviously, should any member feel left out being a civitate without a patron, feel free to PM a member of staff or other civitate to get one? As I said before, there really is no incentive for this other than being able to actually identify yourself with a member of staff or senior civitate in the forum, the possible benefits of such a thing I leave up to you at present.
    Just wanted to say that you shouldn't feel left out


    Nor should this become some sort of pissing contest about getting clients, as before members are encouraged to remember that clients misdeeds WILL be held against a patron.


    Cheers,


    NM


    P.S. posting to ask for a possible patron on this thread or any other thread will just be met with a deletion-- it's for PM only



    I think we established the purpose behind Citizenship, now it is time to have a look at the evolution of the Civitates and how Civitates became patrons.

    First an amendment proposed by Boris and passed with a clear majority. (source)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Note, all current civitates stay civitates, there will be no demotions. This Legislature gives everyone a clean start.

    Civitates/ Politei


    Civitates are all those who do not hold an office and are contributing members of the forum, that is, have shown themselves to contribute meaningfully to the Forum. They hold the ultimate power. They can call into questions any decision by any of the aforementioned officials and can by popular vote have it overturned. They have, and should not be reluctant to use, the power to appeal any decision and have it heard by the whole of the Forum.


    Civitates are subject to the following criterion


    Any member with 75 posts or more and deemed to be a contributing member in good standing may be nominated and patronized of any Curator or Patrician for Civitate status. Any members who directly request said status (by posting asking to be nominated) will be denied it outright. The Curators will then review the members' posts and vote for his possible ascendancy into Civitate status.


    The possible Civitate will then be asked to explain in detail, and in his own words, his duties and privileges as a Civitate in PM form to any Triumvirate. Even if the vote passes, if his explanation is not satisfactory he will be denied the post.


    Any Civitate that exceeds a 20% Warn level will be subject to immediate demotion, without being subject to Ostrakon. (More severe than today)


    If within 240 hours of his promotion, said Civitate is found wanting, that is, conducting himself contrary to the principles of his post, he can be immediately demoted.


    Any Civitate that remain in good standing with no warnings after 2 months tenure can be automatically promoted to the rank of Patrician. ( The post count requisite for Patrician is hereby removed)


    Civitates that have been stripped of their rank will lose all legal privileges and are subject to legal precedent towards members, guard it well. Ex-Civitates will be marked as such.


    The vote will be in the form of a majority, and upon approval, the Civitate will hold all rights as granted by letters patent, a vote in the Curia and a voice in His Forum.


    A nomination which does not win majority voted must abide by Amendments I-III as set forth in the Syntagma.


    As proposed by NM and TBP, Re-edited and Amended by Boris
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Patricians


    Patricians are all those who do not hold an office and are contributing members of the forum, that is, have shown themselves to contribute meaningfully to the Forum as Civitates. They can call into questions any decision by any of the aforementioned officials and can by popular vote have it overturned. They have, and should not be reluctant to use, the power to appeal any decision and have it heard by the whole of the Forum.


    Patricians are subject to the following criterion.


    They are the only non-Curators class that can patronize Civitates, and are the only class subject to Ostrakon.


    Patricians will patronize Civitates by posting on their behalf in the Civitate Patronage Thread in General Discussion on behalf of their possible Civitate. If the Civitate is successful in his promotion, the Civitates name will be added to the Patricians Personal Information. A Civitate must honor his patron, for if he dishonors his patron by being demoted, his Patron may lose his privileges. This will guarantee that Patricians select only worthwhile Civitates and that Civitates will have someone looking out for their interests. If a Patrician fails to make worthwhile patronage 3 times, he can be demoted.


    Patricians cannot be removed from their post unless by an Official Ostrakon or by 3 unsuccessful Patronages, or conversely, by unanimous consent of the Triumvirate.


    As proposed by Boris
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Amendment IV
    If a Patrician is found to be acting in opposition to the rules of the forum and Curia or is otherwise neglecting his duties and/or carrying about in a disorderly and immature manner unbefitting his position for an unreasonable amount of time, he/she may be released from duties by the following procedure:


    He must be brought to the attention of the Curia by formally initiating an Ostrakon, that is, a vote of expulsion from Patrician -hood by a fellow Patrician or Staff member.


    Said Vote must contain delineated reasons for which said Civitate is being tried. The vote will adhere to the aforementioned rules in the Syntagma as to voting guidelines, lasting 336 hours and must pass by a majority vote of those who vote either Yay or Nay (Votes Abstained do not factor into majority calculation, it would be superfluous, a majority abstention decides nothing. ).


    The Patrician in Question will have a chance to defend himself against the allegations till the votes closing time, at which period the votes will be tallied and the appropriate decision taken.


    The duration of the Ostraka (time he will not be allowed to become a civitate again) is to be decided by the Triumvirate through a majority vote to be held immediately after the Ostraka vote has been closed.




    These conventions I implore you to ratify and respect. Only through order will we ever prosper.

    I should note that simply gaining the required time was not automatic promotion. Like Civitates, it was a minimal standard.

    Below is an example from 2005
    Good Morning, Evening or Night to everyone reading this, wherever you may be in the world. I have always been impressed by the system of governance you have here. When I first came to the site, soon after Rome Total War was released, I was impressed by the voice it gave to everyone on the site, from lowly members to the Gods of the forum at the top. I would like to contribute more to the great system of hierarchy, by continuing to make useful posts on the various boards as a Civitate, and as normal help out people new to Total War in Newb Alley, or wherever else they may need assistance.


    Maybe you’re thinking that I could be yet another guy to come along like a few others to become a Civitate and vanish into the internet wilderness. I won’t be doing this; I visit the site and forums every day to post, welcome new members, give my opinion or to help someone with a useful post. I can say with much confidence, that TWC is one of the best forums I’ve been on, with great discussions kept on key by a top of the line moderating team and Staff. Moderating under the rules isn’t always easy stuff. I have to moderate under the same rules at a fellow Ogresnet site – HL Fallout, and it isn’t easy as it looks, so my gratitude to you all.


    I understand what it means to be a Civitate in taking the time to help out the community, set an example of good and useful posting to others and keep posts under the forum rules, which set aside behaviour on the forum. I, of course, would like to keep up this, in what I consider a tradition of mine.


    I’d like to thank you all for reading, the legendary Necrobrit for being my patron and giving me this opportunity, The Triumvirate and Site Admins for keeping up such a great site, and of course the moderating and site staff for keeping the highly intelligent and thoughtful discussion and brilliant articles on the site.


    Thank you to you all, and if you would like to ask a question, please feel free to PM me.
    Omnipotent-Q
    What is the solution? What can we do to resolve the matter?
    Simply repeating what was done at the start would not work. There was a “buzz” that help push the agenda forward. I am told by many citizens that patronizing takes a lot of time. In many cases, members of sufficient quality go unrecognized under the nose of current active citizens.



    The Solution

    First, establish a Curial position. In the Roman tradition, Quaestors.

    Questors responsibility will be to facilitate patronages.

    + Each Quaestor will identify potential citizens.
    + Quaestors will communicate and come to a consensus on who to approach for citizenship.
    + Quaestors will contact the potential citizen based on contribution and observable behavior. They will share information about citizenship and determine if the member is willing.
    + The Quaestor can then ask other Quaestors if they agree if this person is a good candidate. Regardless, they can ask the member to write a paragraph.
    + The Quaestor will then ascertain if the member has regular interaction with any current citizens. If so, then the Quaestor will then contact the citizen and inquire an interest in patronizing the member for citizenship. If so, as before, they will write a paragraph on why they believe they will be good citizens and apply on their behalf in the QP. If not the Quaestor can opt, as a last resort, to patronize the member for him/herself.

    Note: Patronage was intended to be a special relationship. The most ideal patron/ client is one that has regular interaction. A Potential patron should only accept the offer of patronage if they believe the person being suggested is worthy of citizenship.

    Rationale
    Simply creating a group of patrons will not foster patronage as a central component. By facilitating patronage, it will promote it as a noble and essential duty of citizens. I have been told by many citizens when I asked about a member for citizenship that they should have done it themselves. The goal is to foster the nudge the patronage system back into usage. Ideally, as time passes, the practice of using Quaestors should become unnecessary. It is important to note, simply having "headhunters" patronizing will not foster the system but create a crutch by which it will not develop. The same is true if there was a committee seeking and approving members. It worked to get things started, but it will not work in this case. I doubt those who do patronize would want to lose that right unless they were un such a committee. The purpose is to work with the preexisting system.

    The number of Quaestors is indeterminant. It could be anywhere between 4-8 members. (if they identify one member a month, then four Quaestors would result in four applications a month. The manner in which the group is selected could depend on demand. If more than is needed, then an election could take place or else it could be voluntary or by appointment.
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  2. #2
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Firstly, my sincere advice is to reread your essay and correct the numerous grammatical, syntactical and vocabulary errors it includes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a native English speaker either and my writings are far from stellar, but your text is so confusing that it's quite hard to properly interpret and comprehend what you are trying to say. For example, in what concerns your statistics alone, you mistook "ratio" for "ration" and the numbers in the last column are not the ratio of patrons to successful applications, but actually the complete opposite. By the way, I really cannot understand what conclusions we are supposed to extract from this ratio, which, to me, seems as reasonable as the ratio of visitor messages to failed proposals about constitutional amendments.

    In any case, I'm not sure how representative the quoted comments were of the Curia in mid-00s, but they hardly matter in the current situation. The essence and purpose of the citizenship can only be defined subjectively, according to each member's special criteria, so the opinions of the Black Prince of Emperor Nicholas about an institution that has already evolved radically during the next decade are not more authoritative than those of any other member of the community. For instance, I personally believe that the declining participation numbers of the citizenship generally reflect, in a proportional manner, the loss of the traffic's site observed since the release of Empire and exacerbated due to the failure of Rome II, because of the changes in the modding landscape and the rise of social media. And yet, according to my expectations, the Curia still succeeds in performing its duties, by administering itself satisfactorily, by welccoming young citizens, by rewarding various members for their valianet efforts and by assisting the Tribunal at its job.

    I am sure there is considerable room for improvement and the number of patronisations could certainly be increased, but the establishment of a new bureaucratic body, whose performance can neither be easily assessed nor scrutinised seems unnecessary. To be frank, in the case of a failed Quaestor vote, restricting a citizen's right to notify another citizen about the prospects of a potential candidate, looks comically totalitarian and contradictory. After all, what would stop the Quaestor to circumvent the spirit of the system and the result of the vote, by directly proposing the "pleb" himself, instead of acting like a 19th century matchmaker? I suspect it would be much quicker and more practical that every forum user is allowed to encourage a citizen to patronise a specific contributor, without the superfluous intervention of badge-wearing matchmakers looking forward to the dowry.

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    La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham's Avatar Artifex♔Duffer♔Civitate
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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    First establish a committee. In the Roman tradition, we can call them Qaestors.
    Or just call them the CdeC? it amounts to the same thing in reality sir!

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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    For instance, I personally believe that the declining participation numbers of the citizenship generally reflect, in a proportional manner, the loss of the traffic's site observed since the release of Empire and exacerbated due to the failure of Rome II, because of the changes in the modding landscape and the rise of social media.
    I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

    I'd like to add that I don't believe that the number of patrons or patronisations is the sole metric for determining the success, value or worth of citizenship - important perhaps, but a rather narrow view. You ask why citizenship is in a crisis, I believe it's far less to do with the amount of citizens, but rather with the fact that citizens no longer have anything to do. Bringing back the CdeC in some form is something (although your proposed idea is far too mechanical, and further detracts from the idea of patrons and citizens having some kind of personal bond), but it's probably a little too late in the day now.

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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    ...and the numbers in the last column are not the ratio of patrons to successful applications, but actually the complete opposite. By the way, I really cannot understand what conclusions we are supposed to extract from this ratio, ...
    I stated that the hypothesis I had conducted the research on did not yield the results I expected. In furtherance, I stated that the decrease in patronage was correctly predicted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    .In any case, I'm not sure how representative the quoted comments were of the Curia in mid-00s, but they hardly matter in the current situation. The essence and purpose of the citizenship can only be defined subjectively, according to each member's special criteria, so the opinions of the Black Prince of Emperor Nicholas about an institution that has already evolved radically during the next decade are not more authoritative than those of any other member of the community. For instance, I personally believe that the declining participation numbers of the citizenship generally reflect, in a proportional manner, the loss of the traffic's site observed since the release of Empire and exacerbated due to the failure of Rome II, because of the changes in the modding landscape and the rise of social media. And yet, according to my expectations, the Curia still succeeds in performing its duties, by administering itself satisfactorily, by welccoming young citizens, by rewarding various members for their valianet efforts and by assisting the Tribunal at its job.
    The "radical" evolvement is precisely what I was trying to point out. These changes were detrimental. Quality and quantity of contribution were stressed over the behavior standard initially proposed.
    People make a huge mistake in believing that certain games had issues that this meant that there is a lack of interest. When GED was active he stated on numerous occasions that enrollment to a forum has not declined. What is observable in the data is less activity. So we have more people, but less activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I am sure there is considerable room for improvement and the number of patronisations could certainly be increased, but the establishment of a new bureaucratic body, whose performance can neither be easily assessed nor scrutinised seems unnecessary. To be frank, in the case of a failed Quaestor vote, restricting a citizen's right to notify another citizen about the prospects of a potential candidate, looks comically totalitarian and contradictory. After all, what would stop the Quaestor to circumvent the spirit of the system and the result of the vote, by directly proposing the "pleb" himself, instead of acting like a 19th century matchmaker? I suspect it would be much quicker and more practical that every forum user is allowed to encourage a citizen to patronise a specific contributor, without the superfluous intervention of badge-wearing matchmakers looking forward to the dowry.
    The infamous "doomsday scenario." I jest.
    I should note the current system will not be replaced or altered. So, any citizen (after being a citizen for three months) are free to patronize. The role of the Quaestor would be to facilitate the process. The most ideal situation is to have patrons know their clients. If a Qaestor observes someone that they know well is ready for citizenship, there is no ethical dilemma. As I mentioned previously, I have purposely gone into areas I am not familiar with to patronize worthy candidates. My attempt (a failure) was to motivate citizens active in those areas to patronize. The vote of the Quaestor is about taking the next step in the process. Does this person have enough to satisfy the minimal requirements? if a member fails to meet the requirements based on the Qaestor's opinion, then the name could be placed on a list that already exists. Any citizen can choose to take up the cause and the Quaestor should provide the details upon request. This isn't about denying citizenship but facilitating it for those who, for whatever reasons, never decide to patronize.

    Quote Originally Posted by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham View Post
    Or just call them the CdeC? it amounts to the same thing in reality sir!
    Absolutely not! For lack of a better word, Quaestors are match-makers. The goal is to identify and get patronize members who are citizenship material. I find it unlikely that any identify person would not meet the minimal requirements. many are simply overlooked. The CdeC was a council that judges the suitability of a member for citizenship. Quaestors are identifying members who are and then finding a patron to patronize them. The only thing this proposal have in common with the CdeC is they are both groups and they both have something to do with citizenship. It is only a group because they are more than one at that. The voting thing is more of a consensus and only to prevent an application failure. It is like, "hey, what do you think of this guy, here is his/her paragraph.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

    I'd like to add that I don't believe that the number of patrons or patronisations is the sole metric for determining the success, value or worth of citizenship - important perhaps, but a rather narrow view. You ask why citizenship is in a crisis, I believe it's far less to do with the amount of citizens, but rather with the fact that citizens no longer have anything to do. Bringing back the CdeC in some form is something (although your proposed idea is far too mechanical, and further detracts from the idea of patrons and citizens having some kind of personal bond), but it's probably a little too late in the day now.
    Citizens never had "anything to do" except be model citizens. From the beginning, citizenship is not doing anything, but exhibiting excellent posting. You are a role model of excellence; an exemplar. The fact that citizens in the past chose to add awards doesn't change that central premise.

    The system is about reestablishing the importance of a Bond. This is the nature of the system. It promotes that those that know the person well and regularly interacts with the person should be the patron. As I said, for whatever reason, the citizen chooses not to patronize. In some cases, I was told, it was too time-consuming. Well, the Quaestor gets the member to write their paragraph and the patron needs to do, is write their paragraph and post the application. I would also add it may be a good idea for Quaestor to check for all requirements are met (including moderation check).

    The role is to get the patronization process moving again. The ultimate goal is that Qaestors will not be needed.


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    Small note. The presentation was jumbled because I had serious browser freezing problems. After fooling around with it for hours I was finally able to submit it. By then it was late at night and my wife was giving me the evil eye. My apologies.
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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Citizens never had "anything to do" except be model citizens. From the beginning, citizenship is not doing anything, but exhibiting excellent posting. You are a role model of excellence; an exemplar. The fact that citizens in the past chose to add awards doesn't change that central premise.
    Perhaps we never had things we were explicitly mandated to do as citizens, but there were once more structures in place to generate activity and interest, even if all that amounted to was pseudo-roleplaying.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The system is about reestablishing the importance of a Bond. This is the nature of the system. It promotes that those that know the person well and regularly interacts with the person should be the patron. As I said, for whatever reason, the citizen chooses not to patronize. In some cases, I was told, it was too time-consuming. Well, the Quaestor gets the member to write their paragraph and the patron needs to do, is write their paragraph and post the application. I would also add it may be a good idea for Quaestor to check for all requirements are met (including moderation check).

    The role is to get the patronization process moving again. The ultimate goal is that Qaestors will not be needed.
    Well that doesn't sound like it reestablishes a bond at all, you're literally reducing the interaction between patron and client to zero by having a middle man do all the work. And if someone tried to come along and tell me who I should be patronising, I'd tell them to sod off.

    Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of having (elected?) citizens who will go out into the community and forge links between people - in a broad sense -, but matchmaking patrons and clients goes against my beliefs of what citizenship should be about. I never really liked the Citizenship Suggestions thread we have here, and I opposed that for much the same reasons.

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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Perhaps we never had things we were explicitly mandated to do as citizens, but there were once more structures in place to generate activity and interest, even if all that amounted to was pseudo-roleplaying.
    The only role or mandate was to find other worthy members for citizenship. later large awards were added. Later, the notion that the Curia was a "pool" of laborers for staff became en vogue, but that was false since staff preexisted the creation of citizenship.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Well that doesn't sound like it reestablishes a bond at all, you're literally reducing the interaction between patron and client to zero by having a middle man do all the work. And if someone tried to come along and tell me who I should be patronising, I'd tell them to sod off.

    Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of having (elected?) citizens who will go out into the community and forge links between people - in a broad sense -, but matchmaking patrons and clients goes against my beliefs of what citizenship should be about. I never really liked the Citizenship Suggestions thread we have here, and I opposed that for much the same reasons.
    How is it 'zero?" Quaestor will contact citizens who already interact with the member. There isn't any "forging" of a relationship since the relationship is already preexisting. Moreover, it would be a request. If you choose not to, then that is your prerogative. Quaestors are facilitators, not insistors.
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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    How is it 'zero?" Quaestor will contact citizens who already interact with the member. There isn't any "forging" of a relationship since the relationship is already preexisting. Moreover, it would be a request. If you choose not to, then that is your prerogative. Quaestors are facilitators, not insistors.
    Well let me see if I have this straight. Let's say there's a member in the Writers' Study who a Quaestor thinks is worthy of citizenship. The Quaestor then goes "hmm, he seems to get on alright with that Hitai fellow, who's also involved with the WS, they'd make a good match!". He then sends me a PM and asks if I want to be their patron. To use your rationale, I say "oh, I'd love to, but it's such a time-consuming process". The Quaestor then says "oh, don't worry, I'll sort it all out for you!" Then Mr Quaestor goes off, talks to the client, checks that they meet the requirements, and gets their paragraph. The Quaestor then passes all this on to me and I open a thread in the QP.

    So at what point do I interact with my client during this process? What's even the point of my being involved? Why doesn't the Quaestor just patronise them? It seems to me that all this does is demonstrate to my client that I'm too lazy, or that I care about them so little, to bother going through the application process with them myself.

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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Well let me see if I have this straight. Let's say there's a member in the Writers' Study who a Quaestor thinks is worthy of citizenship. The Quaestor then goes "hmm, he seems to get on alright with that Hitai fellow, who's also involved with the WS, they'd make a good match!". He then sends me a PM and asks if I want to be their patron. To use your rationale, I say "oh, I'd love to, but it's such a time-consuming process". The Quaestor then says "oh, don't worry, I'll sort it all out for you!" Then Mr Quaestor goes off, talks to the client, checks that they meet the requirements, and gets their paragraph. The Quaestor then passes all this on to me and I open a thread in the QP.

    So at what point do I interact with my client during this process? What's even the point of my being involved? Why doesn't the Quaestor just patronise them? It seems to me that all this does is demonstrate to my client that I'm too lazy, or that I care about them so little, to bother going through the application process with them myself.
    Not exactly!

    The Quaestor would already have the member in question to write a paragraph about their contribution. The Quaestor could consult with his fellow Quaestors if he/she has any doubts about the candidate. Once the Quaestor decides to move forward, the Quaestor will inform any citizen that interacts with the client if they feel this person is worthy of citizenship (sharing the paragraph) and if anyone would be interested in patronizing the person. Once a patron is found, then the patron is now responsible for the application. I think what you are glossing over is the fact that anyone contacted will already know the member and would have interacted with them. Quaestors do not create relationships, they just nudge it to the next level. Again, it is the citizen's choice to do so. Keep in mind, one of the motivating factors is that I have been told by potential citizens that they rather are patronized by someone they know. I also recently declined to patronized (more accurately politely suggested) and encourage him to seek patronage with the person who they know is a citizen. So, I think your concern is a little paranoid.

    Going back to your previous question about what citizens can do. Well, there isn't anything nobler than to patronize a member for citizenship. Paying it forward is nothing to dismiss as meaningless. Somehow, we lost that idea. It isn't going to start itself. There is a certain thrill with patronizing a successful candidate. It is gut-wrenching when they fail, but the success is thrilling. Once people see and feel the thrill, they would want to go on that ride again. In the past, there have been more people who patronized three or more than they are people doing it just once. With a little encouragement, this can be reversed and the system can take off again.
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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    @ Abdülmecid I

    Rome 2 is extremely successful and played about twice as much as Medieval 2. The updated version of Rome 2 is entirely worth playing, it's a great game and I give credit where it's due to CA releasing the family tree update years later.

    Taking a look at current data top 100 played games on steam within the last 48 hours

    current / peak today
    17,378 22,150 Total War: WARHAMMER II

    7,808 9,446 Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition

    4,388 5,364 Total War: MEDIEVAL II - Definitive Edition

    No other total war games are on this list, just these 3; these are the top 100 played steam games within the past 48 hours.

    We have massive mods for Rome 2 and Medieval 2; they are still actively being developed and are a huge draw to the site (DeI, Third Age, EB2 etc). However, what we don't have is the people willing to be a patron anymore.


    Not really sure what's going on there but obviously abolishing CDeC somehow had the opposite effect intended. It's worth thinking about why exactly, I don't think blaming it on a non issue since (Rome 2 * Medieval 2 are two of the most played games right now) is a factor.


    No mod websites for any game have figured out how to deal with steam workshop exactly quite yet, and maybe that's the real issue. We should figure out how to approach this.
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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Not exactly!

    The Quaestor would already have the member in question to write a paragraph about their contribution. The Quaestor could consult with his fellow Quaestors if he/she has any doubts about the candidate. Once the Quaestor decides to move forward, the Quaestor will inform any citizen that interacts with the client if they feel this person is worthy of citizenship (sharing the paragraph) and if anyone would be interested in patronizing the person. Once a patron is found, then the patron is now responsible for the application. I think what you are glossing over is the fact that anyone contacted will already know the member and would have interacted with them. Quaestors do not create relationships, they just nudge it to the next level. Again, it is the citizen's choice to do so. Keep in mind, one of the motivating factors is that I have been told by potential citizens that they rather are patronized by someone they know. I also recently declined to patronized (more accurately politely suggested) and encourage him to seek patronage with the person who they know is a citizen. So, I think your concern is a little paranoid.

    Going back to your previous question about what citizens can do. Well, there isn't anything nobler than to patronize a member for citizenship. Paying it forward is nothing to dismiss as meaningless. Somehow, we lost that idea. It isn't going to start itself. There is a certain thrill with patronizing a successful candidate. It is gut-wrenching when they fail, but the success is thrilling. Once people see and feel the thrill, they would want to go on that ride again. In the past, there have been more people who patronized three or more than they are people doing it just once. With a little encouragement, this can be reversed and the system can take off again.
    I see, well that's slightly different to the impression I got from reading this:

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Well, the Quaestor gets the member to write their paragraph and the patron needs to do, is write their paragraph and post the application.
    I presume here you meant to write 'all the patron needs to do', but even if not, it still seemed like a largely mechanical process. But if your idea is less 'the Quaestor's do all the work' and more 'Quaestor's nudge people in the right direction', that's certainly more palatable, but I'm not sure how much support you'd get for establishing a group of official nudgers. Perhaps there is something else they could do to round out their role a bit more?

    I agree that patronising others and paying it forward is indeed a noble cause (although not the only thing we could do), but in my mind at least it is noble because of the relationships it forges and the tradition it continues (as well as of course properly awarding people for their contributions to the site). Reducing it to a numbers game robs it a little of its charm. We should be inspiring people to patronise, but I believe that can be better done indirectly through improving the image, function and purpose of the citizenry and the Curia, rather than directly through encouraging patronisation in and of itself. Granted others think differently, and everyone has their own reasons for wanting or indeed not wanting to patronise.

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    Default Re: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    I would first of all like to thank Pikestance for taking the time to compile some statistics and present them. Simmetrical occasionally performed this task and it has been many years since it has been done on a regular basis.

    I get the jist of what you are saying, the site is in decline, and that it reflected in the Citizen numbers, activity, etc. That was predicted many years ago around the time of the rather bumpy release of Empire. Basically, the change in modding characteristics was the deathnell of the modding activities on this board. A slow strangulation of the process. In addition, the change in game mechanics that was less than optimal and was actually seen as a move backwards.

    Your idea has some merit and I am willing to try it. Not sure what the alternative is but is appears at least to be an organized effort to maintain some sense of tradition and organization.

    I would support.

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    Default Re: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    I see, well that's slightly different to the impression I got from reading this:
    I presume here you meant to write 'all the patron needs to do', but even if not, it still seemed like a largely mechanical process. But if your idea is less 'the Quaestor's do all the work' and more 'Quaestor's nudge people in the right direction', that's certainly more palatable, but I'm not sure how much support you'd get for establishing a group of official nudgers. Perhaps there is something else they could do to round out their role a bit more?
    The role of the Quaestor in each case would be based on a case by case basis.

    Getting the wording and responsibilities right is the purpose of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    I agree that patronising others and paying it forward is indeed a noble cause (although not the only thing we could do), but in my mind at least it is noble because of the relationships it forges and the tradition it continues (as well as of course properly awarding people for their contributions to the site). Reducing it to a numbers game robs it a little of its charm. We should be inspiring people to patronise, but I believe that can be better done indirectly through improving the image, function and purpose of the citizenry and the Curia, rather than directly through encouraging patronisation in and of itself. Granted others think differently, and everyone has their own reasons for wanting or indeed not wanting to patronise.
    I think it is important to point out that within a couple of months there were already close to a hundred new civitates. In fact, it didn't take Civitates to long to start suggesting names to the committee. Within 6 months, the "client system" was established. The system was a success for a few years. As I noted, the standards gradually increased commensurate to the decline of patronization.

    I believe there are two things that need to be done;
    1. promote/ restore the standard and purpose of citizenship as outlined.
    2. "pump up the engine" patronization. If (1) is done in conjunction with (2) within a year, it may not be necessary to have (2).

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    I would first of all like to thank Pikestance for taking the time to compile some statistics and present them. Simmetrical occasionally performed this task and it has been many years since it has been done on a regular basis.

    I get the jist of what you are saying, the site is in decline, and that it reflected in the Citizen numbers, activity, etc. That was predicted many years ago around the time of the rather bumpy release of Empire. Basically, the change in modding characteristics was the deathnell of the modding activities on this board. A slow strangulation of the process. In addition, the change in game mechanics that was less than optimal and was actually seen as a move backwards.

    Your idea has some merit and I am willing to try it. Not sure what the alternative is but is appears at least to be an organized effort to maintain some sense of tradition and organization.

    I would support.
    Thank you.

    Just to note, I did not see any correlation with game release and numbers. Reading through the applications from beginning to end, the number of patrons is consistent with the higher standard for applications. The biggest drop actually occurred when Shogun 2 was released, not ETW.
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    Default Re: Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    @ Abdülmecid I

    Rome 2 is extremely successful and played about twice as much as Medieval 2. The updated version of Rome 2 is entirely worth playing, it's a great game and I give credit where it's due to CA releasing the family tree update years later.

    Taking a look at current data top 100 played games on steam within the last 48 hours

    current / peak today
    17,378 22,150 Total War: WARHAMMER II

    7,808 9,446 Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition

    4,388 5,364 Total War: MEDIEVAL II - Definitive Edition

    No other total war games are on this list, just these 3; these are the top 100 played steam games within the past 48 hours.

    We have massive mods for Rome 2 and Medieval 2; they are still actively being developed and are a huge draw to the site (DeI, Third Age, EB2 etc). However, what we don't have is the people willing to be a patron anymore.


    Not really sure what's going on there but obviously abolishing CDeC somehow had the opposite effect intended. It's worth thinking about why exactly, I don't think blaming it on a non issue since (Rome 2 * Medieval 2 are two of the most played games right now) is a factor.


    No mod websites for any game have figured out how to deal with steam workshop exactly quite yet, and maybe that's the real issue. We should figure out how to approach this.
    You aren't incorrect, but the nature of the TW franchise has changed significantly since the days of Empire. In those days TW games were not released annually (excluding expansions) and this website was integral for the community. Easy access to modifications via the steam workshop and the growth of social media have made this community less relevant than it used to be.

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    Default Re: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    Gentleman, though a fascinating topic, the modders that do create mods are not recognized. I know there are more than a dozen who created mods for ATW who were never brought forward despite citizens interacting with them. I m not talking about 2 or 3 simple mods, but more than a half dozen mods each. That is just in that area alone. As I said, I know of AAR creators who told me no specifically because they rather are patronized by someone that is active in the area.

    There isn't a lack of contribution, just a lack of recognition of contribution.
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    Default Re: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Gentleman, though a fascinating topic, the modders that do create mods are not recognized. I know there are more than a dozen who created mods for ATW who were never brought forward despite citizens interacting with them. I m not talking about 2 or 3 simple mods, but more than a half dozen mods each. That is just in that area alone. As I said, I know of AAR creators who told me no specifically because they rather are patronized by someone that is active in the area.

    There isn't a lack of contribution, just a lack of recognition of contribution.
    It would be helpful if you cited these modders.

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    Default Re: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    Opposed. People will flock to the Curia if we get off our arse and actually do stuff for the good of the entire site, rather than sitting in our ivory tower and debating ad nauseam the inner runnings of the dead Curia.

    We should have taken control of the Modding Awards.
    We should be hosting competitions of our own that are open to everyone on the site
    We should be using the modding and debating expertise of Artifex's and Citizens to create guides and introduce members to the various parts of the forums

    There's so much we could be doing FOR TWCenter. If we did this stuff, people would want to join the Curia because they see that they can get involved as well.
    At the moment what is the point of being a Citizen? The only benefit is that you get to "rise above the mire". We're barely even a glorified awards committee anymore.




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    Default Re: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    It would be helpful if you cited these modders.
    Oh ye who doubt thee...

    Augustusng,
    Grizwald714,
    Kraut and Tea,
    Murderin,
    *** RoYaL sPaRtAn GuArD ***
    SadisticPlatypi,
    spH3RiCal,
    Theora
    Viking1978,
    zsimmortal,


    There is probably more. I only categoried one type of mod, but I ordered the mods for a second, just need to collate them to the modders list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    Opposed. People will flock to the Curia if we get off our arse and actually do stuff for the good of the entire site, rather than sitting in our ivory tower and debating ad nauseam the inner runnings of the dead Curia.

    We should have taken control of the Modding Awards.
    We should be hosting competitions of our own that are open to everyone on the site
    We should be using the modding and debating expertise of Artifex's and Citizens to create guides and introduce members to the various parts of the forums

    There's so much we could be doing FOR TWCenter. If we did this stuff, people would want to join the Curia because they see that they can get involved as well.
    At the moment what is the point of being a Citizen? The only benefit is that you get to "rise above the mire". We're barely even a glorified awards committee anymore.
    You apparently have not read one thing I have written. The Curia is not about giving awards. It created every single award except Civitates (Citizenship). There is only two things a citizen can do; [1] be a model member of the site [2] patronize worthy members who can also serve as a model. My child (client) do your duty and patronized and do it often. They are out there.

    On another note; the modding award was started by citizens.
    I would be in favor of anything that builds a modding community. We passed a measure to do just that. Well, at least there is hope with the Modding Staff to build community.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Oh ye who doubt thee...
    I've known Augustus for a while and have previously asked him if he was interested in citizenship. He was not.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: [Discussion/Proposal] Reboot; A Curia Story

    This is the point of my reforms.

    Citizenship is tied to "awards committee" or "participation in the Curia." etc... It is none of those. The Artifex was a specifically designed recognition for members who published mods on the forum. Citizenship is tied to it (a later addition). It is an added bonus, not a necessity. My advice in the future is to promote Artifex, not citizenship. That should be presented as a choice. It is important that Artifex recognize other modders worthy of Artifex.
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