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Thread: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

  1. #21

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Thanks to the trade war, China is divesting itself from US contagion.


    Thankfully, the Chinese have been inoculated from any such attempts; white supremacists can dream all they want but the NBA/Blizzard fiasco underlines the reality that the Chinese market is more important than the American market.
    Unlike China, minorities have reached the highest levels of the power. In China see minorities in neither positions of wealth nor power. Unlike China, rhe US is truly a multi-racial society. Oprah is one of the richest women in the US and Obama was president. Tell what positions of power have any of the many minorities that live in China reached?

    And so what if China is a more important market? The US is still an important market. And if the US is no longer on top, so what? The Wheel of Fortune turns. You could have written the history of science and invention for the proceeding 200 years before 1969, and leave China out, not missing anything important. The US doesn't need to display its military hardware to the world in ostentatious parades, and the US would rather share pictures of of the moon landing and pictures of Pluto and the Hubble Telescope with the world thsn conduct ostentatious parades showing off its latest military hardware.


    As far a rogue states go, it is China that is still occupy Tibet, which the world hasn't recognized, and the Dali Lama is an exile from his own country thanks to the Chinese. And China has be claiming disputed territory left and right. In the South China Sea , among the 8 disputed areas amonf various nations, China claims 7 of them, and only one area of the 8 is China not trying to take. Sounds like China is the real rogue state.




    Thr Chinese thought they were superior in the 19th century too, when the were first crushed by the British twice, then by the Japanese.

  2. #22

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Any scientist/economist knows the key thing to look for are trends, and the trends show the rate at which China's growing, it will eclipse the US around the 2020s. It already surpasses the US in PPP basis, hence why standard of living in Tier 1 cities are comparable if not higher to New York and why the PLA can afford carriers, stealth drones, state of the art ICBMs for a fraction of the Pentagon's budget.
    I am an economist, and any decent economist would not expect an economic growth rate to remain constant. It would be impossible for it to do so. I don't know what the Purchasing Power Parity has to do with this, or how the economic standing of individual cities dictates the economic standing of the nation. If Beijing is a glorious tech utopia and the rest of China is a bunch of villages, that doesn't exactly speak well to the nation's economic standing, now does it?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  3. #23

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Unlike China, minorities have reached the highest levels of the power. In China see minorities in neither positions of wealth nor power. Unlike China, rhe US is truly a multi-racial society. Oprah is one of the richest women in the US and Obama was president. Tell what positions of power have any of the many minorities that live in China reached?
    Black Lives Matter really came out during Obama's tenure as President; having coloured folks in high positions doesn't translate into better conditions for those coloured folks. Black people are still being murdered in their own homes by white police officers. THe united states has an active low level insurgency between black and whites, or more accurately, between whites and non whites with the few "obamas abetting such a system fo apartheid.

    In fact, the UN could place sanctions on the US for police violence against the african american community; other nations have been sanctioned for less.

  4. #24

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    In fact, the UN could place sanctions on the US for police violence against the african american community; other nations have been sanctioned for less.
    You may want to take another look at CCP policy in the Xinjiang and Tibet provinces. It would make a Dixiecrat blush.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  5. #25

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Black Lives Matter really came out during Obama's tenure as President; having coloured folks in high positions doesn't translate into better conditions for those coloured folks. Black people are still being murdered in their own homes by white police officers. THe united states has an active low level insurgency between black and whites, or more accurately, between whites and non whites with the few "obamas abetting such a system fo apartheid.

    In fact, the UN could place sanctions on the US for police violence against the african american community; other nations have been sanctioned for less.
    Only 2% of the blacks killed by guns were do to police shootings, thr majority of black killed were killed by other blacks. Black unemploymdnt is currently thr lowest it has been in more than 20 years.

    While the US is not perfect by any means, China treats it's own minorities far worse than the US treats it's minorities. No Chinese minority has the wealth of a woman like Oprah, and the average income for blacks is far higher than the income Chinese minorities. US minorities make up a larger percentage of professions like doctors, engineers, lawyers ans judges than they do in China. Name me multi millionaire work of one the Chinese minorities. How many scientist are there of a Chinese minority?

    And at least in the US,.protestors and minorities are Bei f run over by tanks like in China. There have been protest in the US, but nothing like what is going on in Hong Kong right now.

  6. #26

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    You may want to take another look at CCP policy in the Xinjiang and Tibet provinces. It would make a Dixiecrat blush.
    Really?
    Chinese police aren't allowed to just shoot people on the street or in their own homes, the way American police are allowed to; in fact, Chinese police don't even carry guns on patrol.
    Chinese don't even have concentration camps the way the Americans have concentration camps seperating kids from their parents just becase they're latino or african; hell, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation which comprises the entire Islamic world even sent Observers and inspectors in to see the uighur detainment camps and even they said it was nothing like Guantanamo, more like training facilities. If i was an islamic terrorist, i'd opt for the internment centre that has less rape and torture and more rehabilitation, but that's just me.

  7. #27

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Really?
    Really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Chinese police aren't allowed to just shoot people on the street or in their own homes, the way American police are allowed to; in fact, Chinese police don't even carry guns on patrol.
    Not sure what you mean by "the way American police are allowed to", but Chinese authorities are certainly "allowed" to shoot their citizens on the streets or, presumably, in their homes. Ever hear of the Tienanmen Square massacre? Do you think those CCP forces were brought to trial for shooting unarmed protesters? FFS, Chinese police in Hong Kong have shot protesters on camera. Get outta here with the portrayal of CCP authorities being gentle or reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Chinese don't even have concentration camps the way the Americans have concentration camps seperating kids from their parents just becase they're latino or african; hell, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation which comprises the entire Islamic world even sent Observers and inspectors in to see the uighur detainment camps and even they said it was nothing like Guantanamo, more like training facilities. If i was an islamic terrorist, i'd opt for the internment centre that has less rape and torture and more rehabilitation, but that's just me.
    No idea what reports you are referring to, but the cultural cleansing that takes place in the Xinjiang province are well documented. At best, they are involuntary state run "reeducation centers" where people are forced to write about how much they love the state (and, yes, are separated from their families). At worst, there are rampant rumors of language bans, name bans, religious practice bans, forced abortions, and inhumane confinement. All without criminal charges or trials. US has plenty of problems, to be sure; but FFS, to hold up the CCP as a higher standard of human rights is absolutely insane. And the US, for all our problems, at least has a generally free press that express these problems unlike in China where God knows what happens and is censored by the CCP.
    Last edited by The spartan; October 14, 2019 at 04:09 AM.
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  8. #28
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Any scientist/economist knows the key thing to look for are trends, and the trends show the rate at which China's growing, it will eclipse the US around the 2020s. It already surpasses the US in PPP basis, hence why standard of living in Tier 1 cities are comparable if not higher to New York and why the PLA can afford carriers, stealth drones, state of the art ICBMs for a fraction of the Pentagon's budget.
    You know when use the phase "a fraction" you usually mean an order of magnitude or 2 or more less.

    239 Billion vs 6333 Billion is not typically what I would call appropriate for the usage.

    https://chinapower.csis.org/military-spending/

    But you use the word CVs so China has some a fraction shall we say of the US.

    Lets take all claimas at face value.

    2 - type 001,001A
    1 - type 002 building
    1- rumored type 002 laid down
    1 -rumored type 003 laid down.
    1 type 075 l fitting out (large helo carrier only)

    Let's see USN

    10 Nimitz class
    1 Ford Class Building
    2 America Class, 11 planned
    8 Wasp Class.

    Actually ready to sail its 3:20.

    Obviously China is just starting in its ambitions (at sea - blue water that is) and the USN has decades of building behind those numbers. But if you want a me to tell you something that worries me it not China its the USN. Let's take all the rumors at face value in say 10 years China with have something nobody but the US has had almost 60 years the ability to put together a real muti carrier battle group. And also have some redundancy and flexibility to replace some capability with second tier CVs. The fact of the Ford tells me the USN has not really considered that. Rather than build an expensive techno toy the build plan should be one aimed at deterrence. The US is stuck with the Ford, get it working and call it a tests bed. Kill the next and for now build an updated Nimitz. But If you really want to make a statement built 2 updated Forestall Types. Smaller so you get more shipbuilders to bite but still super CVs and ditch the cost of nuclear power. In any case that would say you could afford to loose ships and replace them. Problem is the air wings you have I's maybe willing to expand the reserves and save more retired planes.

    It seems to me the calculation you need to in the mind of you rival sis not so much what shiny toys you have on day one but how many toys are working a week later. In this I would kill the Ford altogether. If I thought the USN would build a fleet of AIP type boats like the Japanese Soryu. A dozen of those based out of Japan would be a fine deterrent to a Chinese CV leaving port in anger happily. I did the math a while back but based on the cost number I dug in English for them says 1 Virginia buys 12 of them a Ford buys well a lot more.

    and the NBA kowtowed to China
    Business always bends to whatever they think the market is and usually for a short term gains.

    Colin Kaepernick is certainly a better QB than many guys playing today but he still is blacklisted. ENterntainment industries are certainly the fasted to twist in perceived wind. Look at Communist blacklisting back in the day.
    Last edited by conon394; October 14, 2019 at 12:17 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #29

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    It took some 40+ years to get ten supercarrier Nimitz supercarriers built. That's after decades of operating and building carriers. I highly doubt China can replicate such a long history in a mere 20 years.

  10. #30
    Miles
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    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Any scientist/economist knows the key thing to look for are trends, and the trends show the rate at which China's growing, it will eclipse the US around the 2020s. It already surpasses the US in PPP basis, hence why standard of living in Tier 1 cities are comparable if not higher to New York and why the PLA can afford carriers, stealth drones, state of the art ICBMs for a fraction of the Pentagon's budget.

    But young people don't care about facts and figures, so here's a more recent striking eg of China's economic power: Blizzard canned employees who got political about HK and the NBA kowtowed to China. Expect more of the same examples in the future as American companies navigate the future where the Chinese consumer is paramount and more important that the American consumer.
    The NBA kowtowed to China? I can understand them doing that to North Korea, but gee.. I never knew Basketball was that popular in China.

  11. #31

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Army Cheese View Post
    The NBA kowtowed to China? I can understand them doing that to North Korea, but gee.. I never knew Basketball was that popular in China.


    $1.6bln.
    That's how much money NBA makes in China and that's why the and whining of americans doesn't mean diddly, and why the future is Chinese; if US companies want to survive, they're going to have to speak Chinese and cater to the Chinese consumer. All these little pathetic college boys can downvote all they want, they're gonna have to learn mandarin to cater to Chinese clients or else start joining the neonazi fringes in the alt-right.



    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Really.

    Not sure what you mean by "the way American police are allowed to", but Chinese authorities are certainly "allowed" to shoot their citizens on the streets or, presumably, in their homes. Ever hear of the Tienanmen Square massacre? Do you think those CCP forces were brought to trial for shooting unarmed protesters? FFS, Chinese police in Hong Kong have shot protesters on camera. Get outta here with the portrayal of CCP authorities being gentle or reasonable.

    No idea what reports you are referring to, but the cultural cleansing that takes place in the Xinjiang province are well documented. At best, they are involuntary state run "reeducation centers" where people are forced to write about how much they love the state (and, yes, are separated from their families). At worst, there are rampant rumors of language bans, name bans, religious practice bans, forced abortions, and inhumane confinement. All without criminal charges or trials. US has plenty of problems, to be sure; but FFS, to hold up the CCP as a higher standard of human rights is absolutely insane. And the US, for all our problems, at least has a generally free press that express these problems unlike in China where God knows what happens and is censored by the CCP.
    We can certainly discuss China in some other thread, but without risking derailing this thread, i will say that the human rights record of the United States Government is wanting at best. Ferguson is deprived of clean drinking water because it is mostly lower class black and US society and government persists in waging a war of extermination against non white peoples.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You know when use the phase "a fraction" you usually mean an order of magnitude or 2 or more less.

    239 Billion vs 6333 Billion is not typically what I would call appropriate for the usage.

    https://chinapower.csis.org/military-spending/

    But you use the word CVs so China has some a fraction shall we say of the US.

    Lets take all claimas at face value.

    2 - type 001,001A
    1 - type 002 building
    1- rumored type 002 laid down
    1 -rumored type 003 laid down.
    1 type 075 l fitting out (large helo carrier only)

    Let's see USN

    10 Nimitz class
    1 Ford Class Building
    2 America Class, 11 planned
    8 Wasp Class.

    Actually ready to sail its 3:20.

    Obviously China is just starting in its ambitions (at sea - blue water that is) and the USN has decades of building behind those numbers. But if you want a me to tell you something that worries me it not China its the USN. Let's take all the rumors at face value in say 10 years China with have something nobody but the US has had almost 60 years the ability to put together a real muti carrier battle group. And also have some redundancy and flexibility to replace some capability with second tier CVs. The fact of the Ford tells me the USN has not really considered that. Rather than build an expensive techno toy the build plan should be one aimed at deterrence. The US is stuck with the Ford, get it working and call it a tests bed. Kill the next and for now build an updated Nimitz. But If you really want to make a statement built 2 updated Forestall Types. Smaller so you get more shipbuilders to bite but still super CVs and ditch the cost of nuclear power. In any case that would say you could afford to loose ships and replace them. Problem is the air wings you have I's maybe willing to expand the reserves and save more retired planes.

    It seems to me the calculation you need to in the mind of you rival sis not so much what shiny toys you have on day one but how many toys are working a week later. In this I would kill the Ford altogether. If I thought the USN would build a fleet of AIP type boats like the Japanese Soryu. A dozen of those based out of Japan would be a fine deterrent to a Chinese CV leaving port in anger happily. I did the math a while back but based on the cost number I dug in English for them says 1 Virginia buys 12 of them a Ford buys well a lot more.



    Business always bends to whatever they think the market is and usually for a short term gains.

    Colin Kaepernick is certainly a better QB than many guys playing today but he still is blacklisted. ENterntainment industries are certainly the fasted to twist in perceived wind. Look at Communist blacklisting back in the day.
    This post should really be in the other thread on the Chinese parade.

    But in answer to your post earlier, from the other thread in regards to wealth inequality contributing to social cold war conditions in america, it appears the ruling class in Washington had hoped to instigate a Chinese-US war in order to maintain their grip on power and to distract from problems at home. It appears the US think tanks had to recalculate and recalibrate their modeling given the relatively subdued warhawks of this past month.
    Last edited by Exarch; October 15, 2019 at 08:49 AM.

  12. #32
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    It took some 40+ years to get ten supercarrier Nimitz supercarriers built. That's after decades of operating and building carriers. I highly doubt China can replicate such a long history in a mere 20 years.
    You misunderstood. As things stand and giving a nod to half the rumors about China, as at least singles of intent - China looks to in some 10/15 years at least on paper have a fleet of maybe 4 CVs 2 large and 1 or more large helo carriers. That is potential blue water air power the US has not really dealt with in some time. I think the Ford is very much the wrong response. Far too expensive and reducing actual fleet size for dubious benefits. Certainly the reduction in crew size is maybe a peacetime MBA 'good thing' but crew and well trained crew is critical if you are actually being shot at. Returning to a forrestal type is fewer eggs in a basket, more shipyards that might compete to build them. It means long term deterrence to China since they cannot play we will just sink the 1 CV you have on station threat less credible.
    Last edited by conon394; October 15, 2019 at 09:01 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #33

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Really?
    Chinese police aren't allowed to just shoot people on the street or in their own homes, the way American police are allowed to; in fact, Chinese police don't even carry guns on patrol.
    Chinese don't even have concentration camps the way the Americans have concentration camps seperating kids from their parents just becase they're latino or african; hell, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation which comprises the entire Islamic world even sent Observers and inspectors in to see the uighur detainment camps and even they said it was nothing like Guantanamo, more like training facilities. If i was an islamic terrorist, i'd opt for the internment centre that has less rape and torture and more rehabilitation, but that's just me.
    No, the Chinese send people to long jail sentences just for criticizing the government like Lodoe Gymatso, who served 23 years already.

    The US police are not allowed to shoot people in their own homes, if you bothered to read the news rhe woman cop was convicted. Mistakes happen, but in the US unlike China, those mistakes are reported, in China you go to jail if you report them.


    Again, a question you avoided, is name a minority multi-millionaire in China, or one that holds any major government position, let alone the top position in China. Still waiting for your answer.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; October 15, 2019 at 10:40 AM.

  14. #34
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    That's how much money NBA makes in China and that's why the and whining of americans doesn't mean diddly, and why the future is Chinese; if US companies want to survive, they're going to have to speak Chinese and cater to the Chinese consumer. All these little pathetic college boys can downvote all they want, they're gonna have to learn mandarin to cater to Chinese clients or else start joining the neonazi fringes in the alt-right.
    ~10% percent of revenue and projection of 20% by 2030. Large but given the population not exactly the elderodo the Chinese market is supposed to be. What company. A huge multinational enterprise like the NBA certainly has to mind all its markets. But if China isn't you market meh.

    All these little pathetic college boys can downvote all they want
    Care to clarify?
    Last edited by conon394; October 15, 2019 at 01:33 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #35
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    No, the Chinese send people to long jail sentences just for criticizing the government like Lodoe Gymatso, who served 23 years already.

    The US police are not allowed to shoot people in their own homes, if you bothered to read the news rhe woman cop was convicted. Mistakes happen, but in the US unlike China, those mistakes are reported, in China you go to jail if you report them.

    Again, a question you avoided, is name a minority multi-millionaire in China, or one that holds any major government position, let alone the top position in China. Still waiting for your answer.
    Arguing with tankies is pointless, if only because they support virtually anything and everything that has a chance of knocking the US down a peg. Therefore, any position they adopt on a single issue related to the US is inherently disingenuous. The US takes heat when it appears to act hypocritically per the the metrics for good governance and political freedom that we/the British established for the world. China has no such obligation to that legacy.

    The thing to understand about China, though, is that mainlanders don’t necessarily care about human rights, individual political rights, democratic norms, etc. Those are regarded as entirely western concepts. The CCP justifies its existence and its control over the Chinese government based upon the “One China” principle and upon economic growth. It is delivering on both counts, thanks to decades of being the factory floor of the western world. Political liberties are not part of the equation. The post-WW2 metric of judging governments and societies by the relative political freedoms enjoyed by their citizens is proving to be the first casualty of US decline. After all, the Trump Admin more or less regards democratic norms and human rights a “weakness” that prevents the US from smashing its enemies by total war. This has handicapped US efforts to make the moral case to the world community that Chinese expansionism should be reigned in on moral grounds.

    The average highly educated and affluent mainland Chinese person, in Shanghai or Beijing for example, regards the ethnic minorities in prison camps or the political dissidents being disappeared in much the same way a Republican might regard illegal immigrants or the people sitting in a penitentiary for weed. “ em.” To the mainland Chinese, Hong Kong or Taiwan are what the Confederacy is to Americans, without the pop culture reverence: lost provinces to be reclaimed by any means necessary. East Asia is to China what Latin America is to the US. Accordingly, mainlanders will excuse their government’s unsavory deeds the same way Americans gloss over slavery, or the federal government’s treatment of Native Americans, among other things. Mao is George Washington to these people; never mind that George Washington owned slaves or that Mao slaughtered tens of millions of his own people. The end justifies the means. The people of mainland China know of no other reality than the one they’ve been taught. That’s how effective the CCP’s increasingly complete surveillance and control of information has become.

    This is the context the US must confront by default when dealing with China’s ambitions. The threat China poses to the US isn’t a physical or territorial one. It’s that global dependence on Chinese manufacturing and wealth will, by default, upend the 80 year project the US has embarked on to make the world a more politically liberal, capitalist, societally integrated place, if only because the CCP will not use its power to maintain or further those ends internationally, the way the US has.

    The only thing that will decide who comes out on top is strength, luck, and circumstance. The problem for the US is, to “win,” China just has to keep doing what it’s doing. The US, on the other hand, has to overcome a laundry list of bad habits, bad policy, and missed opportunities, courtesy of the hubris that comes with 30-70 years of global dominance. The US also has to convince the entire world, including its own monied interests, that China is the new USSR. Good luck with that. Do I think China can out-America America? No. Do I think self-inflicted US decline will render that question irrelevant to China’s rise and eclipse of US power? Yes.

  16. #36

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    No, the Chinese send people to long jail sentences just for criticizing the government like Lodoe Gymatso, who served 23 years already. .
    Surely we both know that China isn't a "free" country by the US' definition; which is why it puzzles me how there US dissidents being imprisoned eg Chelsea Manning, or even Julian Assange who has committed no crimes, has served whatever the initial charges were, and is simply being held because the US Elites are pissed off at hime and want to torture him to death.

    The US police are not allowed to shoot people in their own homes, if you bothered to read the news rhe woman cop was convicted. Mistakes happen, but in the US unlike China, those mistakes are reported, in China you go to jail if you report them.
    Kinda hard for Chinese police to shoot people without carrying handguns during patrols, what are they supposed to do? point their fingers and go 'bang' 'bang'?!
    In the US
    *in theory* US police officers aren't allowed to shoot people in their own homes or on the streets, but in practice, that only applies to white people.
    When it comes to black or other coloured minority groups, it's open season.

    Again, a question you avoided, is name a minority multi-millionaire in China, or one that holds any major government position, let alone the top position in China. Still waiting for your answer
    Your premise is flawed; you're saying that since xyz celebrity/multimillionare is of abc ethnicity that there is no racial discrimination in that society; we can see in US society that even with black obama, and kanye and JaRule, that Ferguson is still being persecuted, that black americans are still being genocided, that movements like BLM exist, that america is de jure, an apartheid state.




    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    ~10% percent of revenue and projection of 20% by 2030. Large but given the population not exactly the elderodo the Chinese market is supposed to be. What company. A huge multinational enterprise like the NBA certainly has to mind all its markets. But if China isn't you market meh.
    If US firms want to stay relevant in the globalised economy, they need to have a presence in China; otherwise, watch their competitors one up them in China and downstream, in the US domestic market as well.

    The alternative is to use government protectionism which is what the US is doing; in a very north korean move towards autarky, the US leadership has opted for protectionism and tearing up global cooperative agreements. It's only a matter of time before the world takes the US to task. France's Macron touting sanctions against US firms and companies via the EU is the biggest one to date.

    Care to clarify?
    The internet commentariat tends to lean towards the white, male, college age demographic, usually around the east coast. Their fears are expressed in the surge in neonazi partisanship these past few years as well as "race realists" across the twittersphere and internet.



    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Arguing with tankies is pointless, if only because they support virtually anything and everything that has a chance of knocking the US down a peg. Therefore, any position they adopt on a single issue related to the US is inherently disingenuous. The US takes heat when it appears to act hypocritically per the the metrics for good governance and political freedom that we/the British established for the world. China has no such obligation to that legacy. .
    That's hurtful, i love America and wish only the best for her people; the country is in the grip of white supremacists who insist on enslaving the world and using americans to fight in their wars of profit.

    The thing to understand about China, though, is that mainlanders don’t necessarily care about human rights, individual political rights, democratic norms, etc. Those are regarded as entirely western concepts. The CCP justifies its existence and its control over the Chinese government based upon the “One China” principle and upon economic growth. It is delivering on both counts, thanks to decades of being the factory floor of the western world. Political liberties are not part of the equation. The post-WW2 metric of judging governments and societies by the relative political freedoms enjoyed by their citizens is proving to be the first casualty of US decline. After all, the Trump Admin more or less regards democratic norms and human rights a “weakness” that prevents the US from smashing its enemies by total war. This has handicapped US efforts to make the moral case to the world community that Chinese expansionism should be reigned in on moral grounds.

    The average highly educated and affluent mainland Chinese person, in Shanghai or Beijing for example, regards the ethnic minorities in prison camps or the political dissidents being disappeared in much the same way a Republican might regard illegal immigrants or the people sitting in a penitentiary for weed. “ em.” To the mainland Chinese, Hong Kong or Taiwan are what the Confederacy is to Americans, without the pop culture reverence: lost provinces to be reclaimed by any means necessary. East Asia is to China what Latin America is to the US. Accordingly, mainlanders will excuse their government’s unsavory deeds the same way Americans gloss over slavery, or the federal government’s treatment of Native Americans, among other things. Mao is George Washington to these people; never mind that George Washington owned slaves or that Mao slaughtered tens of millions of his own people. The end justifies the means. The people of mainland China know of no other reality than the one they’ve been taught. That’s how effective the CCP’s increasingly complete surveillance and control of information has become.
    Ah, false equivalencies; let me guess, you spent a summer in Asia and are now a China Watcher/China expert who knows everything about Face.
    This is the context the US must confront by default when dealing with ChinaÂ’s ambitions. The threat China poses to the US isnÂ’t a physical or territorial one. ItÂ’s that global dependence on Chinese manufacturing and wealth will, by default, upend the 80 year project the US has embarked on to make the world a more politically liberal, capitalist, societally integrated place, if only because the CCP will not use its power to maintain or further those ends internationally, the way the US has.
    Even with international agreements, and a black President following the diktat of the Soros/Clinton clique, the US couldn't get enough nations on board for the China containment project; in fact, more nations joined BRI and even joined the competitor to the IMF/World Bank, the AIIB, most notably Anglo FVEYE ally, Australia.

    The trend is that China will become more and more powerful and eventually, all those international organisations will be used against the US in much the same way they were used against Iran and North Korea with US influence being eroded.

    The only thing that will decide who comes out on top is strength, luck, and circumstance. The problem for the US is, to “win,” China just has to keep doing what it’s doing. The US, on the other hand, has to overcome a laundry list of bad habits, bad policy, and missed opportunities, courtesy of the hubris that comes with 30-70 years of global dominance. The US also has to convince the entire world, including its own monied interests, that China is the new USSR. Good luck with that. Do I think China can out-America America? No. Do I think self-inflicted US decline will render that question irrelevant to China’s rise and eclipse of US power? Yes
    The American people who i care for deeply, have lost their way and have become acolytes of Slaanesh, look at the transgender operations being forced upon children; these are deep societal problems that can't be solved by a single politician. Conversion to Islam might help,might not, as some white europeans are desperately looking towards as a solution.

    The USSR was self isolated; modern China can't be isolated, as the Navarro/Bannon/Trump team found out these past 2 years; they ended up isolating the US itself.

  17. #37

    Icon8 Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Blizzard
    *Disgustingly*
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    canned employees who got political about HK and the NBA kowtowed to China. Expect more of the same examples in the future as American companies navigate the future where the Chinese consumer is paramount and more important that the American consumer.

    -
    G. Ward


  18. #38
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Surely we both know that China isn't a "free" country by the US' definition; which is why it puzzles me how there US dissidents being imprisoned eg Chelsea Manning, or even Julian Assange who has committed no crimes, has served whatever the initial charges were, and is simply being held because the US Elites are pissed off at hime and want to torture him to death.
    False equivalence. I am rather sure the state of affairs for somebody leaking that much sensitive material would be no better in China. Rather the point of 'dissident' applies more to say the crack down on Falun Gong.

    *in theory* US police officers aren't allowed to shoot people in their own homes or on the streets, but in practice, that only applies to white people.
    When it comes to black or other coloured minority groups, it's open season.
    No due armed society police are rather shoot happy. They do no doubt end up in confrontations with minorities more often. The history of racism, poverty, expectations etc. However you obviously have not interacted with American police much in any situation that is not a simple traffic stop. In any you race blatter is confounded by the fact whites get killed more often Asians and over more whites get offed by the cops than anyone. No doubt the rate for 'brown' minorities is higher. Your characterization is driven my media focus not data.

    Even with international agreements, and a black President following the diktat of the Soros/Clinton clique, the US couldn't get enough nations on board for the China containment project; in fact, more nations joined BRI and even joined the competitor to the IMF/World Bank, the AIIB, most notably Anglo FVEYE ally, Australia.

    The trend is that China will become more and more powerful and eventually, all those international organisations will be used against the US in much the same way they were used against Iran and North Korea with US influence being eroded.
    Waking fantasy much.



    that movements like BLM exist, that america is de jure, an apartheid state.
    Would a movement similar to BLM even be allowed in China? How about a pro democracy and independence party in Hong Kong?

    If US firms want to stay relevant in the globalised economy, they need to have a presence in China; otherwise, watch their competitors one up them in China and downstream, in the US domestic market as well.
    That assumes you global ambitions. It also means every large market is equality important and also you expectations for which markets will be you growth area and if you think you need to grow endlessly. FOr something like the NBA that is true for other business with other models not necessarily.

    The alternative is to use government protectionism which is what the US is doing; in a very north korean move towards autarky, the US leadership has opted for protectionism and tearing up global cooperative agreements. It's only a matter of time before the world takes the US to task.
    You do realize China has protected market segments and demands for local partnerships right?

    The internet commentariat tends to lean towards the white, male, college age demographic, usually around the east coast. Their fears are expressed in the surge in neonazi partisanship these past few years as well as "race realists" across the twittersphere and internet.
    The internet certainly enables extreme views to be expressed I'm not sure you can correlate to any particular change in the actual population especially once you correct out bots.

    The trend is that China will become more and more powerful and eventually, all those international organisations will be used against the US in much the same way they were used against Iran and North Korea with US influence being eroded.
    Interesting is that really what you see. I don't since I notice that China is allowed the 3rd largest share of votes at the world bank even though is one of the largest debtors to it and contributes hardly all (I mean less than Spain?). One would think if the US were doing what you say the voting power would be set exactly according to who shows up with money.

    The American people who i care for deeply, have lost their way and have become acolytes of Slaanesh, look at the transgender operations being forced upon children
    Again this one of those scratch head moments - what are you babbling about. Also sure China force sterilized people or forced abortions or anything.
    Last edited by conon394; October 16, 2019 at 08:16 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #39

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    False equivalence. I am rather sure the state of affairs for somebody leaking that much sensitive material would be no better in China. Rather the point of 'dissident' applies more to say the crack down on Falun Gong.
    How strange, you offer up another false equivalence to defend your thesis; falun gong is comparable to a more militant anti US scientology/Eden's Gate religious cult, whereas Snowden and Assange are more akin to the Pentagon Papers and the Washington Post. You should be thanking Snowden and Assange for the heroes that they are for fighting for your constitutional rights, rather than allowing fascism to contaminate this great nation.

    No due armed society police are rather shoot happy. They do no doubt end up in confrontations with minorities more often. The history of racism, poverty, expectations etc. However you obviously have not interacted with American police much in any situation that is not a simple traffic stop. In any you race blatter is confounded by the fact whites get killed more often Asians and over more whites get offed by the cops than anyone. No doubt the rate for 'brown' minorities is higher. Your characterization is driven my media focus not data.
    Red herring; asians are a small minority compared to whites and blacks; naturally the numbers of asians killed are going to be lower.

    Bet you didn't know that most of the Black Lives Matter leaders from Ferguson were mysteriously 'suicided'; sure is funny, it aint like nothing the FBI hasn't done before to Malcolm X and the Black Panthers:
    Mysterious Deaths Leave Ferguson Activists ‘On Pins and Needles’

    Six people in the Ferguson, Missouri, activist community have been found dead in the four years since Michael Brown was killed
    ItÂ’s been four and a half years since the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown, the unarmed young black man whose shooting by police officer Darren Wilson sparked protests and riots in Ferguson, Missouri, helping to solidify the Black Lives Matter movement. Though the unrest is over, his passing is still deeply felt in the community, particularly among activists who say they are receiving anonymous threats following reports of deaths in their community.
    Since the 2014 shooting, about six people connected to the protests following Brown’s death have died — some in violent, mysterious ways, the Associated Press reports. While police say there is no evidence that foul play was involved in the men’s deaths, those within the community report feeling as if they are “on pins and needles,” Rev. Darryl Grey said. The prominent African American leader added that he has received anonymous threats, and that he recently found an unmarked box containing a 6-foot python in his car.
    Source: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...-brown-809407/

    It's like a cycle, whenever the negroes or indeed any other race get too uppity; the apartheid state sends in the death squads abetted by the secret police in the FBI to assassinate and 'neutralise' domestic threats to white anglo supremacy.

    Given the historical actions of the USG/US Elites resemble mafiosi tactics, it's not unreasonable to expect mafia tactics like extortion and kidnapping from the modern american ruling class.


    Waking fantasy much.
    The only way to deal with organised crime is with an even bigger alliance of organised crime; that's what the police is supposed to be, and what the PLA is to the US military.

    Would a movement similar to BLM even be allowed in China? How about a pro democracy and independence party in Hong Kong?
    In the mainland? No; in HK? Apparently yes, since the MSS has yet to send death squads to murder CIA handlers.

    That assumes you global ambitions. It also means every large market is equality important and also you expectations for which markets will be you growth area and if you think you need to grow endlessly. FOr something like the NBA that is true for other business with other models not necessarily.
    In this globalised world, if a publicly traded company isn't looking to go global or bigger than what they already are, i'd be selling those shares asap; if they're not growing wtf is the point of hanging onto those shares? Patriotism? Tell that to US firms that matter.

    You'll notice that in the Beltway, it's the CISCOs, the Boeings that are against the trade war, whereas it's the Military/Security types who live in apartments on 40k per annum who want a trade war so they can ensure their own self employment

    You do realize China has protected market segments and demands for local partnerships right?
    Again, outdated information from at least 10 years ago:
    Quote Originally Posted by [FONT=Roboto
    Columbia University Professor Jeffrey Sachs [/FONT]]China is a technology super power. That’s what actually driving this. Not so much that they’re stealing but they’re getting ahead in artificial intelligence, expert systems and 5g. The attack on Huawei is not because they’re stealing but ‘Oh my god they’re getting ahead’
    What’s really driving this in foreign policy terms is fear they’re moving ahead not that they’re stealing from us. Every week I read the leading scientific journals. Chinas publishing like crazy. They’re not stealing from us. They’re in a very advanced stage. New chips, new applications of AI, new super computers.”



    China is not a free market capitalist economy, nor does it subscribe to it as religous doctrine the way the white americans do; secondly, in a free market those are terms which american firms can CHOOSE whether or not to accept.

    Freedom doesn't mean freedom from consequences as Americans so often assume; gone are the days where white americans can expect to get away with crimes. It's only a matter of time but Bush Jr and Cheney etc will be hauled before an international tribunal to answer for their crimes from the 2000s.

    Interesting is that really what you see. I don't since I notice that China is allowed the 3rd largest share of votes at the world bank even though is one of the largest debtors to it and contributes hardly all (I mean less than Spain?). One would think if the US were doing what you say the voting power would be set exactly according to who shows up with money.
    the World Bank is still a US institutiton; good thing too that other nations can rely on China for credit, much to the chagrin of white american vulture funds.

    Again this one of those scratch head moments - what are you babbling about. Also sure China force sterilized people or forced abortions or anything.
    You mean the ongoing program of extermination against the african americans in the US? The concentration camps in the southern border where the children are led away to be raped by guards?

    Slaanesh has taken possession of a significant part of US society, expressed via the forced sex changes upon children in the US. This is not a healthy society, just because the majority of white americans live in luxury and privilege does not mean they'll be shielded from being the beneficiaries to genocide and repression.
    Last edited by Exarch; October 17, 2019 at 09:24 AM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: What if the world treated the U.S. like a rogue state?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Again this one of those scratch head moments - what are you babbling about. Also sure China force sterilized people or forced abortions or anything.
    It's a Warhammer/Warhammer 40K reference. Basically authoritarian governments and their apologists see the US not killing trans people as a sign of weakness and lack of moral fiber. Of course if you suggest to them that it isn't the government's business to police sexuality in a modern state and the only reason their government does is an obsession with power over others they'll vehemently deny it.

    One of the many horrible things about living in China is the state controls sexuality. Like 1984's Oceania, obedient peasants are to only have sex for procreation and otherwise put all of the energy healthy human beings put towards sex and sexuality towards benefiting the party that oppresses them.

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