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Thread: Zheng He Treasure Ships actual size?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Zheng He Treasure Ships actual size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Rather bad analogy. The sailors who served on the Nimitz would not saying was a mile.longz and if the nightly anchor said factually the Nimitz was a mile long, thr station would be flooded with calls correcting him. In the case of your Shugli, if we have no other evidence we might accept his claims, since we likely don't have any other evidence. An inscription out up at the time claiming how the king conquered Ll these lands might be just propoganda, but it is still more reliable that a writer making the same boast 200 years later.
    If you beleive I'm suggesting that no one at the time knew the true dimensions of the vessels, you've misunderstood the intent of the analogy. Regarding Shulgi, I'll quote an excerpt:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I am a king, offspring begotten by a king and borne by a queen. I, Šulgi the noble, have been blessed with a favourable destiny right from the womb. When I was small, I was at the academy, where I learned the scribal art from the tablets of Sumer and Akkad. None of the nobles could write on clay as I could. There where people regularly went for tutelage in the scribal art, I qualified fully in subtraction, addition, reckoning and accounting. The fair Nanibgal, Nisaba, provided me amply with knowledge and comprehension. I am an experienced scribe who does not neglect a thing.

    When I sprang up, muscular as a cheetah, galloping like a thoroughbred ass at full gallop, the favour of An brought me joy; to my delight Enlil spoke favourably about me, and they gave me the sceptre because of my righteousness. I place my foot on the neck of the foreign lands; the fame of my weapons is established as far as the south, and my victory is established in the highlands...

    I sow fear and confusion in the foreign land. I look to my brother and friend, youthful Utu, as a source of divine encouragement. I, Šulgi, converse with him whenever he rises over there; he is the god who keeps a good eye on my battles. The youth Utu, beloved in the mountains, is the protective deity of my weapons; by his words I am strengthened and made pugnacious. In those battles, where weapon clashes on weapon, Utu shines on me. Thus I broke the weapons of the highlands over my knees, and in the south placed a yoke on the neck of Elam. I make the populations of the rebel landsscatter like seed-grain over Sumer and Akkad. How could they still resist my weapons?

    Let me boast of what I have done. The fame of my power is spread far and wide. My wisdom is full of subtlety. Do not my achievements surpass all qualifications?

    I stride forward in majesty, trampling endlessly through the esparto grass and thickets, capturing elephant after elephant, creatures of the plain; and I put an end to the heroic roaring in the plains of the different liona, the dragons of the plains, wherever it approaches from and wherever it is going. I do not go after them with a net, nor do I lie in wait for them in a hide; it comes to a confrontation of strength and weapons. I do not hurl a weapon; when I plunge a bitter-pointed lance in their throats, I do not flinch at their roar. I am not one to retreat to my hiding-place but, as when one warrior kills another warrior, I do everything swiftly on the open plain. In the desert where the paths peter out, I reduce the roar at the lair to silence. In the sheepfold and the cattle-pen, where heads are laid to rest, I put the shepherd tribesmen at ease. Let no one ever at any time say about me, "Could he really subdue them all on his own?" The number of lions that I have despatched with my weapons is limitless; their total is unknown.

    Let me boast of what I have done. The fame of my power is spread far and wide. My wisdom is full of subtlety. Do not my achievements surpass all qualifications?

    I am Šulgi, god of manliness, the foremost of the troops. When I stretch the bowstring on the bow, when I fit a perfect arrow to it, I shoot the bow's arrow with the full strength of my arms. The great wild bull, the bull of heaven, the wild cow and the bison bellow. As they pass across the foothills of the mountains, I shoot barbed arrows at them with my powerful strength...

    I, the king, am the Land's most excellent fighter against the enemy. I, Šulgi, am respected for my immense bodily strength. I am mighty; nothing resists me; I know no setbacks. My barges on the river do not sink under me; my teams of asses do not collapse under me. Striding forward like my brother and friend, the youth Utu, as if with the legs of a lion, I am the good groom of my dust-making asses that bray like lions roaring. Like that of a stallion, my strength is unwavering during the running-race; I come first in the race, and my knees do not get tired. I am fearless; I dance with joy. My words shall never be forgotten. Praise for me because of my reliable judgments is on everyone's lips...

    Let me boast of what I have done. The fame of my power is spread far and wide. My wisdom is full of subtlety. Do not my achievements surpass all qualifications?

    I, Šulgi, king of Urim, have also devoted myself to the art of music. Nothing is too complicated for me; I know the full extent of the tigi and the adab, the perfection of the art of music. When I fix the frets on the lute, which enraptures my heart, I never damage its neck; I have devised rules for raising and lowering its intervals. On the gu-uš lyre I know the melodious tuning. I am familiar with the sa-eš and with drumming on its musical soundbox. I can take in my hands the miritum, which ……. I know the finger technique of the alĝar and sabitum, royal creations. In the same way I can produce sounds from the urzababitum, the ḫarḫar, the zanaru, the ur-gula and the dim-lu-magura. Even if they bring to me, as one might to a skilled musician, a musical instrument that I have not heard before, when I strike it up I make its true sound known; I am able to handle it just like something that has been in my hands before. Tuning, stringing, unstringing and fastening are not beyond my skills. I do not make the reed pipe sound like a rustic pipe, and on my own initiative I can wail a šumunša or make a lament as well as anyone who does it regularly.

    When I pronounce a completed verdict, it is heartily welcomed, since I am wise and exalted in kingship. So that my consultative assemblies, sitting together to care for the people, inspire respect in their hearts when the chief herald sounds the horn, they should deliberate and debate; and so that the council should decide policy properly, I have taught my governors to deliberate and to debate. While the words at their dining tables flow like a river, I tackle crime, so that the foundations are securely established for my wide dominions. I vanquish a city with words as weapons, and my wisdom keeps it subjected just as violence with burning torches would. I have taught them the meaning of the words "I have no mother". My words can be words smooth as the finest quality oil; I know how to cool hearts which are hot as fire, and I know how to extinguish a mouth set on fire like a reedbed. I weigh my words against those of the braggart. I am a man of the very highest standards of value. The importance of the humbleness is of particular value to me...

    I have no equal among even the most distant rulers, and I can also state that my deeds are great deeds. Everything is achievable by me, the king.
    Do note that his wisdom is unmatched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    US has proven it can go to the moon, if someone says the US didn't land on the moon during Trump's presidency, it is not because the US didn't have the ability, but because it didn't happen.
    You may want to reconsider that in light of the number of people claiming the moon landing was faked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #22

    Default Re: Zheng He Treasure Ships actual size?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    If you beleive I'm suggesting that no one at the time knew the true dimensions of the vessels, you've misunderstood the intent of the analogy. Regarding Shulgi, I'll quote an excerpt:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I am a king, offspring begotten by a king and borne by a queen. I, Šulgi the noble, have been blessed with a favourable destiny right from the womb. When I was small, I was at the academy, where I learned the scribal art from the tablets of Sumer and Akkad. None of the nobles could write on clay as I could. There where people regularly went for tutelage in the scribal art, I qualified fully in subtraction, addition, reckoning and accounting. The fair Nanibgal, Nisaba, provided me amply with knowledge and comprehension. I am an experienced scribe who does not neglect a thing.

    When I sprang up, muscular as a cheetah, galloping like a thoroughbred ass at full gallop, the favour of An brought me joy; to my delight Enlil spoke favourably about me, and they gave me the sceptre because of my righteousness. I place my foot on the neck of the foreign lands; the fame of my weapons is established as far as the south, and my victory is established in the highlands...

    I sow fear and confusion in the foreign land. I look to my brother and friend, youthful Utu, as a source of divine encouragement. I, Šulgi, converse with him whenever he rises over there; he is the god who keeps a good eye on my battles. The youth Utu, beloved in the mountains, is the protective deity of my weapons; by his words I am strengthened and made pugnacious. In those battles, where weapon clashes on weapon, Utu shines on me. Thus I broke the weapons of the highlands over my knees, and in the south placed a yoke on the neck of Elam. I make the populations of the rebel landsscatter like seed-grain over Sumer and Akkad. How could they still resist my weapons?

    Let me boast of what I have done. The fame of my power is spread far and wide. My wisdom is full of subtlety. Do not my achievements surpass all qualifications?

    I stride forward in majesty, trampling endlessly through the esparto grass and thickets, capturing elephant after elephant, creatures of the plain; and I put an end to the heroic roaring in the plains of the different liona, the dragons of the plains, wherever it approaches from and wherever it is going. I do not go after them with a net, nor do I lie in wait for them in a hide; it comes to a confrontation of strength and weapons. I do not hurl a weapon; when I plunge a bitter-pointed lance in their throats, I do not flinch at their roar. I am not one to retreat to my hiding-place but, as when one warrior kills another warrior, I do everything swiftly on the open plain. In the desert where the paths peter out, I reduce the roar at the lair to silence. In the sheepfold and the cattle-pen, where heads are laid to rest, I put the shepherd tribesmen at ease. Let no one ever at any time say about me, "Could he really subdue them all on his own?" The number of lions that I have despatched with my weapons is limitless; their total is unknown.

    Let me boast of what I have done. The fame of my power is spread far and wide. My wisdom is full of subtlety. Do not my achievements surpass all qualifications?

    I am Šulgi, god of manliness, the foremost of the troops. When I stretch the bowstring on the bow, when I fit a perfect arrow to it, I shoot the bow's arrow with the full strength of my arms. The great wild bull, the bull of heaven, the wild cow and the bison bellow. As they pass across the foothills of the mountains, I shoot barbed arrows at them with my powerful strength...

    I, the king, am the Land's most excellent fighter against the enemy. I, Šulgi, am respected for my immense bodily strength. I am mighty; nothing resists me; I know no setbacks. My barges on the river do not sink under me; my teams of asses do not collapse under me. Striding forward like my brother and friend, the youth Utu, as if with the legs of a lion, I am the good groom of my dust-making asses that bray like lions roaring. Like that of a stallion, my strength is unwavering during the running-race; I come first in the race, and my knees do not get tired. I am fearless; I dance with joy. My words shall never be forgotten. Praise for me because of my reliable judgments is on everyone's lips...

    Let me boast of what I have done. The fame of my power is spread far and wide. My wisdom is full of subtlety. Do not my achievements surpass all qualifications?

    I, Šulgi, king of Urim, have also devoted myself to the art of music. Nothing is too complicated for me; I know the full extent of the tigi and the adab, the perfection of the art of music. When I fix the frets on the lute, which enraptures my heart, I never damage its neck; I have devised rules for raising and lowering its intervals. On the gu-uš lyre I know the melodious tuning. I am familiar with the sa-eš and with drumming on its musical soundbox. I can take in my hands the miritum, which ……. I know the finger technique of the alĝar and sabitum, royal creations. In the same way I can produce sounds from the urzababitum, the ḫarḫar, the zanaru, the ur-gula and the dim-lu-magura. Even if they bring to me, as one might to a skilled musician, a musical instrument that I have not heard before, when I strike it up I make its true sound known; I am able to handle it just like something that has been in my hands before. Tuning, stringing, unstringing and fastening are not beyond my skills. I do not make the reed pipe sound like a rustic pipe, and on my own initiative I can wail a šumunša or make a lament as well as anyone who does it regularly.

    When I pronounce a completed verdict, it is heartily welcomed, since I am wise and exalted in kingship. So that my consultative assemblies, sitting together to care for the people, inspire respect in their hearts when the chief herald sounds the horn, they should deliberate and debate; and so that the council should decide policy properly, I have taught my governors to deliberate and to debate. While the words at their dining tables flow like a river, I tackle crime, so that the foundations are securely established for my wide dominions. I vanquish a city with words as weapons, and my wisdom keeps it subjected just as violence with burning torches would. I have taught them the meaning of the words "I have no mother". My words can be words smooth as the finest quality oil; I know how to cool hearts which are hot as fire, and I know how to extinguish a mouth set on fire like a reedbed. I weigh my words against those of the braggart. I am a man of the very highest standards of value. The importance of the humbleness is of particular value to me...

    I have no equal among even the most distant rulers, and I can also state that my deeds are great deeds. Everything is achievable by me, the king.
    Do note that his wisdom is unmatched.
    Somthr guy is boastful, he is hardly the only leader in history to be so. Still, boastful or not, I might tend to give credence Ronnie claim he could read and write than to a source 1000 years later asserting that Kings could not write back them, only priest oils, and or that nobles.xould not play musical instruments, but only the king. And I.might consider his claim he conquered Elam. Do we have any indication Elam was not conquered or suffered a military defeat?

    You may want to reconsider that in light of the number of people claiming the moon landing was faked.
    And a lot of people think the Earth is flat too. The belief and opinion od peoplensomout of touch with reality are not worth considering. You are not one of the Moon Landing is a Hoax person, are you?

  3. #23

    Default Re: Zheng He Treasure Ships actual size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    And I.might consider his claim he conquered Elam. Do we have any indication Elam was not conquered or suffered a military defeat?
    If he had any success against them, it was short lived, since conflict with Elam was a common theme during the reigns of his successor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    And a lot of people think the Earth is flat too. The belief and opinion od peoplensomout of touch with reality are not worth considering. You are not one of the Moon Landing is a Hoax person, are you?
    My point seems to have gotten lost somewhere. Accepting that a contemporary is more likely to have accurate knowledge than an individual writing two centuries later without a written chain of transmission doesn't mean that one should accept far-fetched claims of contemporaries. The relative reliableness of contemporaries is a plausible assertion based on an all things being equal assumption anyway, and all things are rarely equal. A person with accurate documents two centuries later may very well be a more accurate and honest source than a boasting or mistaken contemporary. That the source lived a couple centuries later is weaker counter-evidence than the fact that the claim is far-fetched on empirical grounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  4. #24
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Zheng He Treasure Ships actual size?

    but noted and respected scholars like Joseph Needham do take the claims of the 450 feet Treaure Ships seriously.
    I not quite sure you have placed the man correctly. His respected but he and his work were always controversial, no single aspect of his seminal work is without criticism. His motivation almost assured he editorially would take the most optimal view of evidence about Zeng and his boats or the nature of his travels. They were after all reacting is someways to what they saw as the same tendency to do so about 'Western' History up to their present. In Zeng He and the chance to contrast not with Columbus with the Portuguese, Needham found a vehicle for his personal views and judgment.

    You may find this review of the Work and the particular treatment of Zheng interesting

    Finlay, Robert. "China, the West, and World History in Joseph Needham's "Science and Civilisation in China"." Journal of World History 11, no. 2 (2000): 265-303. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20078851.
    Last edited by conon394; October 11, 2019 at 07:54 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Zheng He Treasure Ships actual size?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I not quite sure you have placed the man correctly. His respected but he and his work were always controversial, no single aspect of his seminal work is without criticism. His motivation almost assured he editorially would take the most optimal view of evidence about Zeng and his boats or the nature of his travels. They were after all reacting is someways to what they saw as the same tendency to do so about 'Western' History up to their present. In Zeng He and the chance to contrast not with Columbus with the Portuguese, Needham found a vehicle for his personal views and judgment.
    Thanks.. I am well aware of Needham's strong bias in favor of the Chinese. In fact, it his acceptance of things like the super large dimensions of the Zheng He that cause me to have an issue with him and his work. He knew the dimensions came from a fantasy novel, but defended the novel by asserting, in true Needham fashion, without any justification that the fantasy novel was "generally rsliable". No explanation explaining point by point why a work of fantasy fiction can be trusted, just an assertion. As you can see, I am not his biggest fan.

    Still, Needham was a respected scholars, and shows my point that while nobody outside of fervent Indian nationalist takes claims of ancient India having nuclear bombs and aircraft seriously, quite a number of people non-Chinese do take the claims of super large Treasue Ships as fact.

    You may find this review of the Work and the particular treatment of Zheng interesting

    Finlay, Robert. "China, the West, and World History in Joseph Needham's "Science and Civilisation in China"." Journal of World History 11, no. 2 (2000): 265-303. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20078851.
    Thanks, I will try to look it up.

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