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Thread: V3 Balance

  1. #1

    Default V3 Balance

    Some observations regarding the faction balance ( V3 ) after playing several campaigns.


    - Ered Luin : tends to fight Angmar forever.
    - Bree : typically defends vs Dunland, sometimes taking Anuminas/Fornost
    - Angmar : fights forever vs multuiple enemies, mostly they lose eventually but don't get destroyed anytime fast
    - Northern Dunedain : gets their capital attacked often, tends to survive
    - Moria Goblins : survive always
    - Khazad Dum Dwarves : tend to hold Khazad dum East, do nothing else except for having the most money always
    - Snow Orcs : They can beat Erebor or lose against Erebor
    - Vale of Anduin: mostly surviving, sometimes attacking Dol Goldur succesfully
    - Enedwaith clans : do nothing or lose vs Dunland
    - Dunland : Win vs Enedwaith mostly, sometimes invading Bree but never destroying Bree.
    - Isengard : slowly beats down Rohan in most games
    - Rohan : in most games, gets beaten down slowly by Isengard
    - All 4 Elves factions : most games they don't take nor lose many lands
    - Dale : typically losing vs Rhun but only after a lot of turns, since Rhun needs a lot of turns before Dorwinion is finished
    - Dorwinion : always losing vs Rhun
    - Rhun : beats Dorwinion, they advances to Dale and Erebor
    - Erebor : can win or lose vs Snow Orcs, can lose vs Rhun
    - Dol Goldur : status quo most games
    - Mordor : tends to fight Gondor forever
    - Gondor : defends its lands against all fronts
    - Dol Amroth : can win or lose their fight vs Harad/Corsairs/Khand
    - Harad and Khand : small contribution to the wars with Gondor/DA
    - Corsairs : are typically annoying but never destroy other factions

    Did I forget a faction?

    The only two of the above observations that bother me are the following :
    - Dorwinion always losing vs Rhun
    - Gondor always surviving

  2. #2

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    These are on point except that in my campaigns every time Ered Luin destroys Angmar.

  3. #3

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    I said it before on the suggestions thread but I’ll say it again. Dorwinion in particular should take more land on turn 1 auto expansion.

  4. #4

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Steward Denethor II View Post
    I said it before on the suggestions thread but I’ll say it again. Dorwinion in particular should take more land on turn 1 auto expansion.
    In my campaigns they get wiped out by Rhun 4/5 times, hence, yes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    The trolls and greatbeasts Mordor eventually gets a lot of cause them to win all the auto-calc battles vs. Gondor, so Gondor is always on borrowed time.

    The only reason Vale of Anduin holds out and does well is there INSANE garrison scripts they have in multiple places. The A.I. can't handle them, the snow orcs sends what they think is enough to take out that vale city near gundabad and then SURPRISE, here are 5 extra garrison woodsmen causing the assaults to fail over and over and over.

    Many garrison scripts should be toned down a little. It leads to years upon years of chain sieges of settlements of otherwise defeated nations.

    Looking forward to version 4

  6. #6

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Multicolored View Post
    The trolls and greatbeasts Mordor eventually gets a lot of cause them to win all the auto-calc battles vs. Gondor, so Gondor is always on borrowed time.

    The only reason Vale of Anduin holds out and does well is there INSANE garrison scripts they have in multiple places. The A.I. can't handle them, the snow orcs sends what they think is enough to take out that vale city near gundabad and then SURPRISE, here are 5 extra garrison woodsmen causing the assaults to fail over and over and over.

    Many garrison scripts should be toned down a little. It leads to years upon years of chain sieges of settlements of otherwise defeated nations.

    Looking forward to version 4
    Stalemates are common in war. ME models a period of history probably from 800 A.D to 1200 A.D...some wars lasted for multiple generations with respite in between campaigns. Having factions get rolled in the first 25 turns completely unbalances the game...if Anduin falls then Lothlorien and mirkwood fall, then Imladris and ND, the KD, then Rohan...Anduin will fall eventually, unless they are saved by a good faction but late enough in the campaign that it isn't a total clusterf---- and the player can still have a challenge if evil and not have a slog if good. There is a lot that goes into balancing.

  7. #7
    Burlini's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Mordor's recruitment capabilities of great beasts should be nerfed. at the late game every stack of Mordor includes at least one unit of great beasts. they shouldn't be this common, especially since they wreck everything in auto resolve.

  8. #8

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    I disagree about nerfing Mordor. Reduce the stack spam yes but other than that it's supposed to be the great evil that wants to devour all of Middle earth. If Gondor without the help of anyone else could defeat Mordor what would the purpose be?
    Besides only 4 places if i remember correctly can recruit great beasts every 20 turns or something?

  9. #9

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Burlini View Post
    Mordor's recruitment capabilities of great beasts should be nerfed. at the late game every stack of Mordor includes at least one unit of great beasts. they shouldn't be this common, especially since they wreck everything in auto resolve.
    I agree with that, especially because for balancing AI vs. AI fights it is crucial.
    Last edited by asdfasers; October 08, 2019 at 07:19 AM.

  10. #10
    Burlini's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderAdama View Post
    I disagree about nerfing Mordor. Reduce the stack spam yes but other than that it's supposed to be the great evil that wants to devour all of Middle earth. If Gondor without the help of anyone else could defeat Mordor what would the purpose be?
    Besides only 4 places if i remember correctly can recruit great beasts every 20 turns or something?
    Mordor can still be a huge threat without the great beast spam, especially with the huge amounts of troops they can muster and the reduction of garrison troops in the upcoming version. I'm not sure what the precise rate of availability of the great beasts are, but i do know that after turn 120 almost every stack of Mordor that I fight includes one of these wretched creatures and in my opinion that's way too much.

  11. #11

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    I think the Great Beasts should be removed as a unit.

    I know someone worked really hard on them, and I appreciate the DaC Team's efforts, but the unit is unnecessary, especially since Gondor lacks a proper counter to them besides ballistae. Olog-hai already put the auto-resolve in favor of Mordor (a much needed weight, otherwise Mordor would lose almost every auto-resolve), no need for these guys to stack things even more. They're fun to use and they help against the elves, but I don't think that's worth the insane frequency the AI recruits them at.

  12. #12

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyPistol View Post
    Gondor lacks a proper counter to them besides ballistae.
    Lebennin Marines wipe out Great Beast with a single volley of javelins.

  13. #13

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirundo View Post
    Lebennin Marines wipe out Great Beast with a single volley of javelins.
    I see this claim a lot, but that's never happened with me even with a flank attack. Unless of course this is under the assumption of a 3 vs 1 ratio, in which case that means the Marines take up more army slots than they should just to deal with a multi-hit point unit that usually appear by the pair.

  14. #14

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Burlini View Post
    Mordor can still be a huge threat without the great beast spam, especially with the huge amounts of troops they can muster and the reduction of garrison troops in the upcoming version. I'm not sure what the precise rate of availability of the great beasts are, but i do know that after turn 120 almost every stack of Mordor that I fight includes one of these wretched creatures and in my opinion that's way too much.
    Without great beasts and Olog Hai Mordor are just pure trash that runs away. Do you know how funny it is to fight them and seeing half their army is just low tier orc trash and the other is halberds which never run and die to arrows because they're as slow as snails?

    In my experience Goblins of Moria can die against Khazad Dum, Mordor always beats Gondor and Dol Amroth conquering everything on its path, and Rhun literally conquers everything in all directions Gengis Khan style. In one game it broke its alliance with Mordor and conquered all of Mordor. Rhun has such a cosy little spot where it basically has both Dorwinion and Dale for Dinner and there's nothing that can be done about it. If you're playing as a faction that's far away from Rhun you can expect Rhun to be the major threat controlling half the world in the late game. Good thing Rhun's troops are not too strong like Dwarves or Elves or Snow Orcs.

    About the Khazad Dum dwarves and Elven factions not doing anything... They tend to not do anything when the're "ally locked". In order to fight a faction must have a border with its enemy. Otherwise it will sit and do nothing. So Lindon or Rivendell or Lorien can be "locked" by their allies and forced into a meagre existence with no purpose.

    This sort of mechanic leads me to often try "organising" my allies. The weak and uselss have to be exterminated because they just leech resources from towns they hoard to themselves. Though the problem with that is you cn't ally with your old allies if you killed their ally. I learned this the hard way when I exterminated the Dunedain and the Blue Mountain Dwarves in an attempt to give the whole region to Lindon so they can help me fight Rhun from the north. I ended up killing Lindon too because they refused to re-ally and then I gave the entire region to Lorien instead (which agreed to ally because they never allied with the Blue Mountains or Dunedain).

  15. #15
    Burlini's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBilbo View Post
    Without great beasts and Olog Hai Mordor are just pure trash that runs away. Do you know how funny it is to fight them and seeing half their army is just low tier orc trash and the other is halberds which never run and die to arrows because they're as slow as snails?

    In my experience Goblins of Moria can die against Khazad Dum, Mordor always beats Gondor and Dol Amroth conquering everything on its path, and Rhun literally conquers everything in all directions Gengis Khan style. In one game it broke its alliance with Mordor and conquered all of Mordor. Rhun has such a cosy little spot where it basically has both Dorwinion and Dale for Dinner and there's nothing that can be done about it. If you're playing as a faction that's far away from Rhun you can expect Rhun to be the major threat controlling half the world in the late game. Good thing Rhun's troops are not too strong like Dwarves or Elves or Snow Orcs.

    About the Khazad Dum dwarves and Elven factions not doing anything... They tend to not do anything when the're "ally locked". In order to fight a faction must have a border with its enemy. Otherwise it will sit and do nothing. So Lindon or Rivendell or Lorien can be "locked" by their allies and forced into a meagre existence with no purpose.

    This sort of mechanic leads me to often try "organising" my allies. The weak and uselss have to be exterminated because they just leech resources from towns they hoard to themselves. Though the problem with that is you cn't ally with your old allies if you killed their ally. I learned this the hard way when I exterminated the Dunedain and the Blue Mountain Dwarves in an attempt to give the whole region to Lindon so they can help me fight Rhun from the north. I ended up killing Lindon too because they refused to re-ally and then I gave the entire region to Lorien instead (which agreed to ally because they never allied with the Blue Mountains or Dunedain).
    Modor would still be able to muster Trolls and numenorean units that have good armor stats and thus favour them in auto resolve. This means that against AI Mordor won't easily be killed off. Regarding ''how funny it is to fight them and seeing half their army is just low tier orc trash and the other is halberds which never run and die to arrows because they're as slow as snails'' Have you ever fought battles in which there are great beasts present? It is a nightmare and does not make for entertaining battles, not to mention that currently nearly every stack off Mordor contains at least one unit of great beasts after turn 100.

  16. #16

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    Yeah I've fought them extensively. Not all their stacks use Great Beasts, I'd say about 1/2 or 2/3 at some points. Great beasts can be easily killed by javelins but if you don't have them they're not unkillable. They die quickly against pikes and concentrated crossbow/strong archer fire. A unit of great beasts is definitely one of their fiercest units but without them they just stash like 5 orc hosts and 4 uruk halberds and the rest are morannon spearmen and uruk archers. The temple units are exeptionally rare. In my experience Mordor is one the weakest factions in to fight in the game even with their Great Beasts and Olog Hai.

  17. #17

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    in my experoence all the orc factions are way too weak. Autoresolve favors numbers over strength more so than actual battles which is the only reason why the good nations donīt ROFLstomp them. LOTR is supposed to be set in a time where the victory of the orcs seem inevitable but instead their campaigns are the most challenging because their units just suck. It becomes apparent when you compare the stats of units to the stats in third age and in beginning of the end times mod. In DAC, elite units are way overstated in comparison, or in the case of the warhammer mod, a unit of skaven slaves costs 50 upkeep and is better than the lower tier of orcs in DaC where the absolutely worststated units possible cost 86 and are more comparable to skaven rat swarms that cost 20 upkeep and like 200 recruitment.

    An elite orc with heavy armor should have a high armor stat and be threatening, not lose to elven militia and have an armor stat comparable to textile armor in the good factions.

  18. #18

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    I think though you're not giving all the "good factions" a fair shake when talking smack about the orcs this way. Firstly, the new Gundabad orcs aren't really an orc faction of old so they don't count. Their orcs are fierce and are comparable to dwarves! Secondly, "wildmen" factions are quite similar stat wise to the orcs. Enedwaith in particular is quite showing but Dunland and Bree aren't much better.

    A big strength of Moria orcs is their warg riders which have a deadly charge attack. Mordor though it seems gets the crap end of the stick. So far I think Mordor is perhaps the weakest faction in the game which is quite ironic. Their only saving grace are their special units: trolls, great beasts, temple humans, and rhun and khand allies.

  19. #19

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    If you're complaining that much about the orc factions, you clearly don't know how to utilize swarm mechanics. There are plenty of guides and posts on this site that help you out with the various orc factions, including Gundabad now. The orcs were a threat in the books BECAUSE Sauron had marshaled so many armies of them, and that's reflected in the gameplay. Goblins of Moria got something of a short stick, but they're almost as fun as the original Orcs of the Misty Mountains.

  20. #20

    Default Re: V3 Balance

    I havenīt played version 3 yet so I guess itīs possible for improvement to have happened. I have noticed that Angmar has some post barracks event units that are even stronger than Uruk Hai, though the rest of their orc units arenīt very impressive. Orc marauders are described as the hard core of any orc army and skilled fighters armed with the best the orcs can find, and they are as strong as lightly armed enedwaith or Rhudaur skirmishers, except they donīt have any missiles.

    Itīs not that I cantīt win with these factions. I utilize swarm mechanics and try to get surrounds constantly, but it feels like everything is turned against my favor. My units are slower than the enemy, making it hard to get a surround. units with 240 orcs in are as good for as a single unit of 80 for the purpose of flanking. That means if you get a unit like orc marauders, they canīt swarm the enemy better than a 150 man unit with better troops in fact being worse because they are slower, have worse morale and are more vulnerable to missiles and cavalry, but they also lose in a 1v1. The way I succeded with isengard was to field hordes of spearmen, a combination of elites which could crush the Rohan cavalry and hordes of cannon fodder to fill out the numbers to ensure I always had the numbers to surround. The way Iīm fighting with Angmar is to go full divide and conquer and use bodyguards and snaga stalkers/orc fellers mostly. With an elven faction I could just take the enemy head on and pull out a victory of of my ass, but with the orcs I really have to work and be careful what battles I take, which wouldnīt neccesarily be bad except that orcs arenīt supposed to be underdogs. I just want to compare that to the skaven in end times who have 200 man units of slaves that are stronger than orcs and cost 50 upkeep. And ratswarms who are about as weak as you can get put cost 20 upkeep. Compared to 86 for the lowliest of snaga with 3 stats in DaC. Additionally Skaven have a mechanic where they replace about half of their losses after each battle if they win and have a general. And they donīt feel OP. end times isnīt even balanced stronger. For comparison, chaos warriors cost 400 upkeep for 128 something. They have 8/22 which is a bit better than Gondor infantry but also fewer numbers and I think the costs are comparable.

    yes Sauron had huge amounts of orcs, but trying to take a fully garrisoned minas tirith in a siege with orcs, well, At least 10 orcs would die for every man probably in game. How does Sauron pay for that? his economy is trash in game if I recall. With every orc faction. If the free peoples gather a mighty host, how much sauron can send is restricted by logistics. He canīt feed an army ten times the size of the enemies army. against an army that can use cavalry, sauron will probably need that size to have a chance to contend on the battlefield, because those cavalry charges are the bane of orcs and excellent at stopping flanking attacks.

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