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Thread: How numerous are the Mongols?

  1. #1

    Default How numerous are the Mongols?

    Hi

    I am playing (only) my second ever Med2 campaign - as Byzantium, early, med/med.

    It's 1245. Things are going satisfactorily for Basilicus the Utter Bastard and his empire: the Seljuks and Venetians are no more. I have the Sicilians by the unmentionables in North Africa. My fleets dominate the Mediterranean. Jerusalem is within striking distance. And whilst the Genoese, Novgorodi, Khwarezmians and Fatimids all want a piece of me, my economy is healthy, my population is 'content', and I am able to field sufficient numbers of professional-quality troops to repel all comers, and to expand when I decide the time and circumstances are right.

    Of course, all that is about to change with the imminent arrival of the Mongol Horde on my borders.

    My spies have revealed the havoc wrought on the Khwarezmians by these demons from the far east. There remain a half a dozen cities/castles before the MH are (literally) at the gates of my eastern settlements, but the prospect of an Ain Jalut happening in this campaign before I have to shed Mongol blood seem slim.

    The Imperial Council of War has planned the defence of Eastern Christendom based around a half a dozen ballista-towered major cities and fortresses, with a series of forts constructed at key choke points. I am confident that my brave scoutatoi spearmen and mourtatoi archers (with their stakes) can fight off the initial wave of these savage barbarians. Plus, I have a happy band of (8+ star) psycopaths impatient and eager to stab/poison/garotte as many of the heinous pagans' generals as they can.

    But I have no idea as to how many armies I am likely to have to repel before the Mongol tide can truly be said to have been turned.


    So I will be grateful to receive estimates as to the numbers of Mongol stacks that are likely to get as far as, say, the Eastern Mediterranean coastal provinces.


    (I know I can use toggle_fow to see and count what's on the map. But I've resisted doing that 'cos the in-game tension is, frankly, too delicious to forgo. And I can still vividly recall the 'shock' I experienced the first time I went toe to toe with the Mongols in Med1. I got my @r$£ well and truly kicked. It was thrilling. And it revealed to me God's purpose when he gave his faithful crossbows.)

    Thanks and best regards
    VGB

  2. #2

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    There are at least 10 stacks when the Mongols first show up, then they get a steady supply of stacks every few turns or so for some time. By the time the stacks stop coming they'll be too broke to replenish their armies.

    In my experience they either take out Kwarezm and head north into Russia or they blitz the Middle East and into Anatolia and Egypt. Your holdings in the former Turkish lands are probably in the most danger. Expect around 5 armies to attack you every turn.

  3. #3

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    hard to say, how much they spawn depends on a bunch of other things happening, if for example Urgench doesnt get conquered for a while more mongols will spawn near there, if it gets conquered others will spawn in another place, i dont know exactly which but most of the settlements they conquer in Iran and russia grant them more stacks

    on top of that they get aditional stacks at certain dates

    Code:
    ;=============== Golden Horde Emergent ==================
    monitor_event EventCounter EventCounterType mongols_invasion_warn
    	and EventCounter = 1
    
    
    	add_events
    		event	emergent_faction	mongols
    		date	7
    		event	counter	mongols_invasion
    		date	7
    		event	counter	mongols_invasion
    		date	11
    		event	counter	mongols_invasion
    		date	20
    		event	counter	mongols_invasion
    		date	36
    		event	counter	mongols_invasion
    		date	56
    		event	counter	mongols_invasion
    		date	107
    my guess is those are turn numbers counting from the moment they emerge

  4. #4

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Ive never had the Mongols bother me when I play ERE.
    By the time Im ready to head far to the east, theyre usually dwindling over in Iraq somewhere.
    I like to own western Turkey, all of Greek lands... right up to the edge of Italy... and North Africa first.

    That way when I invade the holy lands, I can hit them from north and south at once.
    And by this time, Mongols, Turks and Egyptians have chewed each other up pretty good and are no match for my Imperial forces
    Honest and truly, I AM Robin Hood!

  5. #5
    dlcatalin's Avatar Civis
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    Icon7 Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Install SSHIP submod, makes SS 10 times better, i play ERE with that submod,i conquered the the entire Anatolian peninsula, then Hungary and Poland, i own the entire Baltic region, all of Italy also, and when the Mongols came i was so confident that i have sent my most heavily armored army with my king leading it to face in the open field a stack of Mongols.

    Boy was that a mistake ... they butchered half my army with arrows then their cav crashed so hard into mine that all routed and my king got killed on the spot.

    Then as things could not get any better my entire country fell into civil war, couple of towns rebelled because my new King had no authority. Got attacked by the Kievan Rus in the North East, by the Fatimids in the Middle East, the Mongols started sieging my towns. The Seljuks have re-emerged (great feature in this submod, dead factions can spanw back) in one of my rebeling towns. All this started crashing my economy.

    After a lot of anger and work i managed to get back all that i have lost, made Kievan Rus, Hungary, Poland, Venice and Rome my Vassals. Exterminated the Seljuks, took 5 provinces from Fatimids including Jerusalem, masacred like 1.000.000 people in the settlements i conquered. But unfortunately the Mongols started loosing strength by themselves ... another branch of Turks revolted in the heart of the Mongol empire and weakened them. I had only 1 great victory against them while defending a town, i pinned them all next to my gates then set them on fire with that special unit that shoots greek fire. Now i am sending my king again on an expedition to punish the Mongols once and for all. I plan to take 4 provinces from them and resetle the Hungarians in IRan ))))))))

  6. #6

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Hi All

    Thanks for your comments, observations and suggestions.


    Dlcatalin
    That sounds like one rollercoaster of a campaign. Happy revenge conquering. (Isn't that always the sweetest sort?)


    Well, I've been given quite a lot to chew on. What I can report is that, in the couple of turns since I first posted: Baghdad (formerly Khwarezmian) has fallen without much of a fight (quite disappointed about that); the main thrust of the Mongol advance is clearly to the south of the Caspian Sea; the only significant non-ERE city between me and the Horde now is Damascus which is Fatimid. There are a lot of Egyptian troops in its vicinity as it's been the assembly point for Egyptian attacks on me. (Here's hoping they get properly embroiled.)

    As for the actual number of Mongol stacks that I can see approaching eastern Turkey/NW Syria/N Lebanon, it's fewer than I was anticipating, just eight not counting what appear to be garrisons. I.e., not the tsunami I had feared. And they are marching 'in isolation' - not within 'decline battle' distance of each other.

    So, I've decided to stick with my primary strategy of avoiding field battles in favour of seeking to defend settlements and forts. (Dlcatalin's experience would seem to recommend that.) I've suspended pretty much all building spend throughout the Empire with a view to amassing a treasury reserve that will allow me (if necessary) to hire every mercenary in the region for when I am forced to relieve a siege because the garrison has been starved to the point of surrender. And I've recruited a couple more generals to give me more options and flexibility.

    Provided I can double team, and so defeat, the Mongol armies when I am forced to fight in the open, my replenishment capacity should be able to keep up with the attrition rate. Then it's all about whether I can continue to churn out enough men and materiel until the Mongol stack conveyor belt runs dry and their economy folds.


    Sounds great on paper but, "No plan survives contact with the enemy." We''ll see...

    Deus Nobiscum


    Thanks and best regards
    VGB
    Last edited by VictorGB; October 07, 2019 at 10:15 AM. Reason: D'oh!

  7. #7
    dlcatalin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    What i did is to relocate my "greek fire" units in all my border provinces, and when they attacked i pinned them down on a narrow corridor or in front of the gate in a "V" formation, then i pulled back some of my troops and used the "Greek fire" unit to set hundreds of Mongols on fire, in like 5-10 seconds their entire army routed. If you can deploy spikes in front of gates or where you assume they will breach or come, their cavalry is basically just as non-existant. And yea, fighting them in the open is a big no-no .. nothing works ... even behind gates if they decide to focus arrow fire and shoot over the walls you will feel it ...

  8. #8

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    catapults do the job just fine, mangonels even better, ribaults are godlike

  9. #9

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Mongols move and swift mainly through Cuman territory. If you or anyone was any other empire then you would need 10-15 stacks of armies in the middle east or in the steppe province if you stand a chance of winning. Mongols are ruthless and won't be taken down that easliy.

  10. #10

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    As far as I remember, their numbers vary from around 70 to 100 full stacks. However, if you have a strong economy, you can beat the Mongols even in the open field (my old computer can't handle sieges). The trick is to send numerous, suicidal and relatively cheap armies deep in their territory, in order to massacre isolated Mongols. Then, I suggest offering the conquered settlements to preferably neighboring factions, like Khwarzem, so that the Golden Horde is distracted and delayed by attempting to reconquer its lost provinces. Jihads and Crusades can also play a crucial role, but that's obviously not an option for an Orthodox faction, like the Byzantines.

    Regarding the battles, spamming heavy cavalry is not a realistic approach, as, even if you are filthy rich, replenishing your casualties is practically impossible, due to the recruitment system of Medieval II and Stainless Steel. Instead, you should really invest in archers and crossbowmen, who are both cheap and easily available. Especially the Mourtatoi are killing machines. As long as you hold a defensive position (just quit every battle, where the Mongols refuse to attack you), the archers will completely negate the enemy's horse archers. Then, you should deploy some infantry to stand against the Golden Horde's heavy soldiers and archers, with the rest being cavalry, heavy, light or medium. Alternatively, you can also add a siege weapon to your armies, even a very poor one, like a catapult. Your mobility will be decreased, but if you position the artillery unit in the front, the horse archers will concentrate all their attention to them. However, artillery is a notoriously difficult target for arrows, because the siege machine absorbs the vast majority of it, which means that the Mongols will waste their precious ammunition, while your archers will calmly slaughter them from behind.

    example


    x (useless ballista, destined to tank the enemy)

    a a a a a a a (archers and crossbowmen)

    i i i i i i (cheap infantry, like urban spears or town militia)

    ccc ccc (cavalry)

    g (commander)

    *Always leave some distance between your units, especially in what concerns the archer and infantry line. Since many arrows go astray, a thin blob will result into unnecessary injuries caused by inaccurate volleys.
    Eventually, you will still suffer terrible casualties, but the Mongols will be damaged even more, while your mediocre army can be reinforced without too much difficulty.

  11. #11
    dlcatalin's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Alternatively, you can also add a siege weapon to your armies, even a very poor one, like a catapult. Your mobility will be decreased, but if you position the artillery unit in the front, the horse archers will concentrate all their attention to them. However, artillery is a notoriously difficult target for arrows, because the siege machine absorbs the vast majority of it, which means that the Mongols will waste their precious ammunition, while your archers will calmly slaughter them from behind.
    Great ideea, never thought about that, looks like i've been doing it wrong all along, im keeping my arty in the back to protect it from arrows and cav rushes lol

  12. #12

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Hi All

    Abdülmecid I
    their numbers vary from around 70 to 100 full stacks. !!

    Please post again to admit that this statement was purely intended to put the wind up a Med2 newbie. 'Cos it certainly has done.


    That said, my earlier reported Mongol stack number assessment was foolishly premature and way off target. (I think I allowed wishful thinking to grab the reins of my faculties.)

    I have noted all the advice about using Siphonatores, artillery as arrow magnets, battle deployment and army composition, etc. Many thanks.

    Best regards
    VGB


    Sapere aude
    Horace

  13. #13

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Hi Abdülmecid I

    Bit off topic, but I have to ask...

    if you position the artillery unit in the front
    Did you provide Daenerys, Tyrion, Grey Worm, Jon Snow, et al advice for the defence of Winterfell?

    Best regards
    VGB

    Winter is coming

  14. #14

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    I'm on a long-slog Byzantium run, on Hard difficulty. I converted Aegean castles to cities as soon as possible, and managed to grab southern Balkans early on, and a bit later I crushed the Seljuks in a running war, helped by Kwarezhmians eating them from the east.

    My next fight was big, for the Fatimids fielded huge armies and very many stacks. But their quality was not brilliant, and so I managed to crush them in some decisive battles where 1 or 2 of my armies faced off against 2 or 3 of theirs. Having 6 Scholarii Cataphracts in most of my field armies proved decisive. The Fatimids were still a daunting prospect, because they still sported many full stacks even when I had wiped some of theirs, but I was on a timer: I wanted to annihilate them and move all my armies to the east when the Mongols came. And so I pressed hard, circulating units in and out of the armies. Fleets moved in shuttle traffic between the Levant and Constantinople with damaged or replenished Thagmata regiments, and all castles in eastern Anatolia and Assyria glowed with recruitment.

    I had sent out spies into Persia and Central Asia and Russia in anticipation of the Mongols, to scout Kwarezm and track the upcoming Mongols' progress. It was hugely satisfying to crush the Fatimids in a series of massive strikes against their last strongholds (finished off by a long-distance naval landing in Libya by Thagmata regiments, to kick the Fatimids out of the game) in Egypt. This happened just as the Mongols showed up south of the Aral sea.

    I turned everything east, and my ballooning economy was parallelled by a furious buildup of armies. A full dozen spies were trained to keep track of the Mongol conquest of every single city in Central Asia, Iran and eastern Russia. Their quality stacks were alarming, and the Kwarezhmians fell like wheat before scythes. It was truly an astounding tempo of conquest, against large Kwarezhmian army gatherings. Alarmed, I drove hard to recruit more and more high-tier soldiers, and stationed armies at every single crossing and bridge across the Tigris. Mesopotamia was thus secured, but only barely. A couple of Mongol armies (we were allies for a while) managed to slip across the southmost bridge while I besieged Basra before I plugged the last gap. Then followed a cold war, where our "alliance" held, and no one dared to do anything.

    I continued to invest in the economy, and trained more and more armies. I positioned 6 full stacks at Tabriz in an attempt to plug the wide open gap into the Caucasus. There were wars in the west against Hungary, but the Balkans effectively remained a status quo since the very start. Too strongly garrisoned by me for the AI to grab, and not sporting enough armies to crush Hungary decisively and take their lands. However, the situation in the east grew insane.

    Utterly insane.

    The Mongol stacks kept coming. And coming. And coming. My full surveillance network of spies made the sheer disaster obvious. As dozens of full stack elite Mongol armies marched westward. I pressed my economy to the limit, and managed to recruit even more armies, in the end keeping no less than 4 full stacks to guard each bridge and crossing across the Tigris.

    Before I reached that number on all crossings, war broke out. A lone general ran out from Basra to build a watchtower, and he was one tile away from making it back to the city that turn. The two Mongol armies trapped behind my lines pounced like wolves at this opportunity, and so it was on. My gathering of full stacks down at Basra managed to overpower the Mongols, but it was a very tough fight. One of my three armies broke, and the casualties were harsh. They were obviously the best armies on the entire map, and there were dozens of them.

    What followed, was a phony war along the Tigris. The Mongols swarmed with full stacks, but dared not attack my 4 full stack plugs at the bridges. Eventually the AI probed from the north. Astrakhan fell, an expected and planned lithmus test to see how well a full Byzantine army could stand up to a Mongol siege. The Mongols were just too good, and they combined quality with quantity. Then they drove south into the Caucasus, but I scrambled new armies and managed to beat them. One silver bullet was found: A full Thagmata army of elite regiments recruited from Constantinople. With such a force I could overrun whatever Mongol full stack was thrown at me. But a couple of battles was enough to reduce the Thagmata regiments to dangerously low levels, and so it was off to the boat and a lengthy time of retraining in the capital before they could be fielded again. The Thagmata work wonders, but they cannot be everywhere at once, and they are only trained in New Rome.

    The Mongol full stacks kept coming. And coming. And coming. The stream of armies from the north was countered, but eventually the AI started spilling over. My 6 full stacks are completely surrounded by Mongol armies now, and I cannot make a move. Now many other Mongol full stacks are spilling north toward Baku, and I scrambeld to put 1½ armies in their way at the bridge.

    This was not enough.

    The Mongols sport trebuchets and mounted archery from hell. The bridge could not be held, so I retreated on the battlefield and attempted to outmaneouvre their army. Instead their mounted archers stood toe to toe with my lancers in close combat, and the Mongol heavy cavalry charge broke my army's back completely.

    I am now facing the prospect of a collapse in the Caucasus. Mayhap the situation can be plugged for a while more, in the narrow valleys leading into Armenia, if I abandon Baku. But I seriously wonder what on Earth is wrong with the Mongols?

    I anticipated them as a sweet late mid-to-late game challenge, a lot more powerful than the Kwarezhmians and Fatimids. The entire game run has been one fun restoration of Rome in the east, to see if I could withstand the Mongol and Timurid onslaughts.

    Yet the actual situation turned out bonkers. I counted 51, yes fifty-one Mongol full stacks. 51! And they seem to get only more. And their warriors are basically the best in the whole game. This obscene marriage of quality with ridiculous quantity went way beyond my hopeful expectations for a hard challenge in the east. What had been a wonderful game, the best Medieval II experience I've ever enjoyed (thanks to Stainless Steel for allowing one to choose not to have AAR and slow recruitment times) ended up in a mad spamfest. I've driven my economy to the hilt now, and field as many armies as I possibly can (Egypt does wonders to your wealth). And still the Mongols outnumber my full stacks by an order of magnitude.

    This is no longer a fun challenge where you can lose to the AI and be sent running back to Constantinople. This is just stupid.

    Why, dear modders, did you design the Mongols to spam an insane amount of elite full stack armies? This is nothing like the real Mongol invasion given the ridiculous numbers, and it goes way beyond what constitutes a great challenge.

    I would strongly advice you review the scripting for Mongol army spawn.

    Otherwise thanks for a wonderful experience in Stainless Steel! But this wart is sadly enough game-breaking.

    No screenshots: My PC showed the game as a black screen when I tried to take screenshots.
    Last edited by Karak Norn Clansman; November 03, 2019 at 10:02 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    A two front war will be hard to managed. Focus your army in the Middle East and some in Siberia for insurance.

  16. #16

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Hi Karak Norn Clansman

    Thank you for your evocative and stirring account of your campaign.

    You have expanded far further east and south than I have.

    So far (1261) I have only had two engagements with the Mongols. In the first, two of my stacks attacked (one sallied) and pretty much destroyed a single Mongol stack which was besieging a fort. Both my stacks had a high proportion of mourtatoi and scoutatoi spearmen - I am no cavalry general: much more a Davout than Murat - but the casualties amongst these professional-class troops, the backbone of my field armies, were disconcertingly high. Which was troubling as up until that point my wall-of-spears+archery approach to battles had seen off all comers fairly comfortably.

    The following turn I learnt that not only are the Mongols extraordinarily tough in the field, they are also much more operationally aggressive (it seems to me) than any of the other factions I have fought. Four Mongol stacks came barrelling into the area near Aleppo. Either I had badly misjudged how far away they were, or these chaps have greater movement capability than my Byzantines. I elected to withdraw from combat. I am currently debating my response to this incursion.


    On a theatre level, I reckon I can defeat what I can currently see of the GH in my vicinity - say, a dozen stacks - but that will certainly cost me the cream of my forces. And whilst I do have money in my treasury, I'm not confident I can go attritionally toe to toe against the quantity, 50 to 100 stacks, that both you and Abdülmecid I report, not to mention their quality. In short, I am pessimistic about my chances of preventing them from overrunning Anatolia.

    Best regards
    VGB


    God fights on the side with the best horse archers.
    Last edited by VictorGB; November 04, 2019 at 09:31 AM. Reason: D'oh!

  17. #17

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Never underestimate your enemy and how far they are. Concerned that you have not captured turkish lands near georgia yet.

  18. #18

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Hi Sullivanclan1

    Quote Originally Posted by sullivanclan1 View Post
    Concerned that you have not captured turkish lands near georgia yet.
    Given this thread's topic I infer that you are asserting that holding the corridor of land between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea (The Caucasus) would be advantageous in terms of holding off the Mongols. If I've understood you correctly then please elaborate.

    (I feel that holding modern-day Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan obliges you to defend an extended and somewhat open front. Whereas the Pontiac Mountains and Armenian Highlands are a 'natural' defensive line.)

    Also, those provinces are neither especially wealth-generating, nor are they part of the ERE's victory conditions.

    Best regards
    VGB

    Saper aude
    Horace

  19. #19

    Default Re: How numerous are the Mongols?

    Mostly, I find if you leave the Mongols alone theyll punch themselves out. Of course then youve got the Timurids, but not as long term tough.
    I dont go east of Turkey until the Mongols start dwindling.
    Honest and truly, I AM Robin Hood!

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