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Thread: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

  1. #81
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    From Ukraine with love,
    In May this year, Ukraine's then prosecutor general said there was no evidence of wrongdoing by Joe or Hunter Biden.
    And now...Ukrainian President Zelensky Denies Trump Pressured Him

    It's crystal clear that Zelensky omitted truth.
    Is it clear that Ukraine prosecutor is telling the true? how do we know?
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  2. #82

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    So can someone imply a quid pro quo without saying so directly? Or is that perhaps beyond the power of the English language?
    Just as a note, Trump himself already said he viewed the aid as conditional, and gave that as a reason the Administration blocked the aid. The condition, according to Trump, was his concerns about “corruption.” One might wonder what he meant by that, until you read the transcript of the call where he accuses Biden of corruption, and specifically asks the Ukrainian government to investigate the Biden family - er, I mean, “corruption.”


    The Pentagon had already certified to Congress in May of this year that the Ukrainian government was required to undergo reforms to increase transparency and civilian checks and balances since 2014, as part of NATO compliance, before aid was released. This, plus the whistleblower report, now backed by Trump’s hand-picked DNI chief who is trying to protect himself at this point, paints a damning picture. Regardless of any explicit quid pro quo, the bare minimum of what we know is more than enough to start an impeachment inquiry.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  3. #83
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry


    Democrats' double standard on Ukraine - The Washington Post


    But if we are concerned about U.S. officials inappropriately threatening aid to Ukraine, then there are others who have some explaining to do
    In fact, Biden did demand Shokin be removed and used the prospect of U.S. financial support to pressure the Ukrainian government to fire its top prosecutor, accused of not investigating corruption cases.

    Biden's words,
    ...And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev. And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t. I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars.
    I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a b-tch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.


    ---
    Edit. I'm pro-democrat, I don't like Trump, but this is getting on my nerves. Zelensky, between Scylla and Charybdis,
    murphy discusses recent travel to germany, kosovo, serbia and ukraine
    Press release, September 11 2019
    U.S. Senator Chris Murphy (D-Conn.),

    No Ukrainian officials that we met with brought Rudy Giuliani up on their own. I raised it with President Zelensky—just made the point that if the Ukrainian government gets requests from the Embassy, that’s different than getting requests from a political actor in the United States…In order to keep the United State –Ukraine relationship strong, it was much better for the president to rebuff any pressure he's getting from political campaigns in the United States to conduct investigations,
    Zelesnky wasn't surprised that I brought it up…his response was pretty simple: that they have no intention of getting involved in an American election.
    Translating: don't investigate, don't jeopardize Democrats support for Ukraine.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 26, 2019 at 06:14 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  4. #84

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Biden does national wheeling and dealing. To the point that he himself as Vice President is doing the talking.

    Trump does campaign wheeling and dealing. To the point that his own personal lawyer is doing the talking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Edit. I'm pro-democrat, I don't like Trump, but this is getting on my nerves. Zelensky, between Scylla and Charybdis,
    If we can't spot the difference...
    Last edited by Gaidin; September 26, 2019 at 07:09 PM.
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  5. #85

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Biden does national wheeling and dealing. To the point that he himself as Vice President is doing the talking.

    Trump does campaign wheeling and dealing. To the point that his own personal lawyer is doing the talking.

    If we can't spot the difference...
    Pretty much this, and the fact that Trump is asking a foreign government to investigate his political opponent.

    The pro-Trump talking point that there is a “double standard” between treatment of Biden vs Trump relies on the premise that the false narrative about Biden, referenced by Trump in the infamous phone call, is true. It isn’t. It was completely debunked months ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trump call transcript
    The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me. [......] I will have Mr. Giuliani give you a call and I am also going to have Attorney General Barr call and we will get to the bottom of it. I'm sure you will figure it out. I heard the prosecutor was treated very badly and he was a very fair prosecutor so good luck with everything.
    The guy who broke the NYT story about Biden seems upset that Trump and Co have hijacked his story and twisted it into a lie about Biden:

    When Joe Biden arrived in Ukraine in December 2015 to press for more aggressive anti-corruption efforts by the government, Hunter Biden’s role with Burisma made his father’s demands, however well-intentioned, appear politically awkward and hypocritical. That was the point of my story. I quoted Edward C. Chow, who follows Ukrainian policy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, who said the involvement of the vice president’s son with Zlochevsky’s firm undermined the Obama administration’s anti-corruption message in Ukraine.

    The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.

    In May, when this issue began to surface, The Intercept’s Robert Mackey wrote an excellent piece debunking the lies in the new pro-Trump version of the Biden story. In the process, he provided greater detail than I had included in my 2015 story. He wrote that Shokin had been forced from office at Biden’s urging because he had failed to thoroughly investigate corruption and stifled efforts to expose embezzlement and misconduct by public officials. Biden did threaten to withhold $1 billion in U.S. loan guarantees unless Shokin was ousted. But that was because Shokin had blocked serious anti-corruption investigations, not because he was investigating Burisma.


    https://theintercept.com/2019/09/25/...y-upside-down/
    From Mackey’s piece, months ago:

    The accusation is that Biden blackmailed Ukraine’s new leaders into firing the country’s chief prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, to derail an investigation he was leading into a Ukrainian gas company that the vice president’s son, Hunter, was paid to advise.
    The truth, Kaleniuk said, is that Shokin was forced from office at Biden’s urging because he had failed to conduct thorough investigations of corruption, and had stifled efforts to investigate embezzlement and misconduct by public officials following the 2014 uprising.

    There is no question that Biden did, during a visit to Kiev in late 2015, threaten to withhold$1 billion in loan guarantees unless Shokin was dismissed. But the vice president, who was leading the Obama administration’s effort to fight corruption in Ukraine, did the country a favor by hastening Shokin’s departure, Kaleniuk said, since he had failed to properly investigate corrupt officials.

    By getting Shokin removed, Biden in fact made it more rather than less likely that the oligarch who employed his son would be subject to prosecution for corruption.

    Indeed, hiring the vice president’s son might have seemed to Zlochevsky like a way to protect his business from scrutiny by international investigators. But the facts show that the Obama-Biden administration strenuously opposed the decision by Ukrainian prosecutors to let Zlochevsky off the hook.

    Although there is no evidence that Joe Biden did anything to shield Burisma from scrutiny, the fact that he failed to dissuade his son from helping to launder the reputation of a Ukrainian company widely suspected of corruption is hardly praiseworthy. The former vice president says that he simply never discussed his son’s business interests in Ukraine, but maybe he should have.

    “What I’m pissed off about,” Kaleniuk said, “is that Shokin, who was totally corrupt, who undermined the reform of prosecution, and reformers, and who didn’t want to investigate Zlochevsky, now appears in the New York Times as the hero who wanted to investigate Zlochevsky and Burisma and who suffered because Joe Biden demanded to dismiss him because of his willingness to investigate Burisma — which is absolute nonsense.”

    Kaleniuk was also distressed that the Times report, and Vogel’s tweet promoting it, failed to clearly debunk the false claim that the prosecutor Joe Biden got fired “had opened a case into a company that was paying HUNTER BIDEN.” In fact, Kasko and Kaleniuk noted, Shokin had undermined efforts to investigate the company and its owner.

    https://theintercept.com/2019/05/10/rumors-joe-biden-scandal-ukraine-absolute-nonsense-reformer-says

    The impeachment angle Democrats chose may be uncomfortable for Biden, and will doubtless be a liability for him running for the nomination and/or against Trump. But that’s not because Biden did what Trump and his acolytes are claiming he did. Not even close.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; September 26, 2019 at 07:34 PM.
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  6. #86
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    So I’ve come back to this after reading up on this, and I want to ask, what is the whistleblower whistleblowing?
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  7. #87

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Heh, so is this the new fad for Dems?

    Step 1: Get investigated for doing something shady
    Step 2: ????
    Step 3: IMPEACH DROOMF

    Bold strategy, Cotton. I think you're onto a winner this time around. (press X to doubt)
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  8. #88
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    From Ukraine with love,
    In May this year, Ukraine's then prosecutor general said there was no evidence of wrongdoing by Joe or Hunter Biden.
    And now...Ukrainian President Zelensky Denies Trump Pressured Him

    It's crystal clear that Zelensky omitted truth.
    Is it clear that Ukraine prosecutor is telling the true? how do we know?
    That particular prosecutor was the guy Biden "recommended" to replace the guy he had them fire. The new President of Ukraine also has a new prosecutor and he has a very different take.

  9. #89

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    So I’ve come back to this after reading up on this, and I want to ask, what is the whistleblower whistleblowing?
    Some key points to avoid reading all 9 pages.

    1. July 25th Call to Ukrainian President

    Multiple White House officials with direct knowledge of the call informed me that, after an initial exchange of pleasantries, the President used the remainder of the call to advance his personal interests. Namely, he sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the President's 2020 reelection bid...

    2. Efforts to restrict access to records related to the call

    In the days following the phone call, I learned from multiple U.S. officials that senior White House officials had intervened to "lock down" all records of the phone call, especially the official word-for-word transcript of the call that was produced -- as is customary -- by the White House Situation Room. This set of actions underscored to me that White House officials understood the gravity of what had transpired in the call.

    3. Ongoing Concerns

    On 26 July, a day after the call, U.S. Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations Kurt Volker visited Kyiv and met with President Zelenskyy and a variety of Ukrainian political figures. Ambassador Volker was accompanied in his meetings by U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland. Based on multiple readouts of these meetings recounted to me by various U.S. officials, Ambassadors Volker and Sandland reportedly provided advice to the Ukrainian leadership about how to "navigate" the demands that the President had made of Mr. Zelenskyy.


    4. Circumstances leading up to the July 25th call

    Starting in mid-May, I heard from multiple U.S. officials that they were deeply concerned by what they viewed as Mr. Giuliani's circumvention of national security decisionmaking processes to engage with Ukrainian officials and relay messages back and forth between Kyiv and the President...

    During this same timeframe, multiple U.S. officials told me that the Ukrainian leadership was led to believe that a meeting or phone call between the President and President Zelenskyy would depend on whether Zelenskyy showed willingness to " play ball" on the issues that had been publicly aired by Mr. Lutsenko and Mr. Giuliani.
    There are several enclosures with the whistleblower complaint that are relevant. Namely,

    According to multiple White House officials I spoke with, the transcript of the President's call with President Zelenskyy was placed into a computer system managed directly by the National Security Council (NSC) Directorate for Intelligence Programs. This is a standalone computer system reserved for codeword-level intelligence information , such as covert action. According to information I received from White House officials, some officials voiced concerns internally that this would be an abuse of the system and was not consistent with the responsibilities of the Directorate for Intelligence Programs. According to White House officials I spoke with, this was "not the first time" under this Administration that a Presidential transcript was placed into this codeword-level system solely for the purpose of protecting politically sensitive — rather than national security sensitive — information .
    And.

    I learned from U.S. officials that, on or around 14 May, the President instructed Vice President Pence to cancel his planned travel to Ukraine to attend President Zelenskyy' s inauguration on 20 May; Secretary of Energy Rick Perry led the delegation instead. According to these officials, it was also "made clear" to them that the President did not want to meet with Mr. Zelenskyy until he saw how Zelenskyy "chose to act" in office. I do not know how this guidance was communicated, or by whom. I also do not know whether this action was connected with the broader understanding, described in the unclassified letter, that a meeting or phone call between the President and President Zelenskyy would depend on whether Zelenskyy showed willingness to "play ball'' on the issues that had been publicly aired by Mr. Lutsenko and Mr. Giuliani,



    On 18 July, an Office of Management and Budget (0MB) official informed Departments and Agencies that the President "earlier that month" had issued instructions to suspend all U.S. security assistance to Ukraine. Neither OMB nor the NSC staff knew why this instruction had been issued. During interagency meetings on 23 July and 26 July, OMB officials again stated explicitly that the instruction to suspend this assistance had come directly from the President, but they still were unaware of a policy rationale. As of early August, I heard from U.S. officials that some Ukrainian officials were aware that U.S. aid might be in jeopardy, but I do not know how or when they learned of it.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Are you saying disobeying the law is ok? This all started with obstructing the whistleblower complaint the IG said Congress should see.
    No, I didn't say that. I don't understand what the question is.
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  11. #91

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Nancy jumped the gun here, there’s nothing in the transcript and Democrats are now saying it was “implied”.
    Nancy just went all in with no smoking gun. Should have learned after the latest Kavanaugh allegations, the mueller report, and the Covington kid to wait for all information.

    Dumb move all around. She should call a spade a spade and move on but she will likely follow through because she doesn’t want to anger the nut jobs in her party.

  12. #92

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    Heh, so is this the new fad for Dems?
    Just gotta follow that Benghazi playbook.
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  13. #93
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Some key points to avoid reading all 9 pages.

    There are several enclosures with the whistleblower complaint that are relevant. Namely,

    And.
    I appreciate that, but, how can someone whistleblow on a phone call they’ve never heard?

    Whistleblower 'didn’t have direct knowledge of the communications' between Trump and Ukraine

    Whistleblower who claims Trump repeatedly pressured Ukraine president to investigate Joe Biden and his son Hunter for corruption during phone call 'DID NOT actually listen to the communication between the leaders'
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    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  14. #94
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Why do you need direct knowledge if multiple people that you know and trust inform you of a wrongdoing? Sure, it's better to have direct knowledge, but failing that I don't see the issue in whistleblowing if you judge your sources to be honest. In any case, it's a bit moot, since the 'transcript' that was released confirms the contents of the whistleblower complaint in regards to the call.
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
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  15. #95
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    If he, as a supposed whistleblower, testified in court, his testimony would be thrown out because he didn’t witness anything.

    Why doesn’t the third party that heard the call come forward instead of passing it on.
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    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  16. #96

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Because one does not have to directly view events in order to be privy to them. We already know that the phone call between Trump and Ukraine transpired and the whistleblower report matches the accusations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    If he, as a supposed whistleblower, testified in court, his testimony would be thrown out because he didn’t witness anything.

    Why doesn’t the third party that heard the call come forward instead of passing it on.
    You don't need the whistleblower to testify anything. Corroboration of evidence is required, but much of the work of putting together what actually happened, was already done by the whistleblower. That's why this complaint is important.

  17. #97

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I appreciate that, but, how can someone whistleblow on a phone call theyÂ’ve never heard?
    They can't. The source isn't actually a whistleblower and, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, his(her?) hearsay testimony wouldn't even be accepted in a civil court. The editorialized accusations which are made in the complaint bear no particular relation to the evidence as shown in the transcript unless you're prepared to jump through the usual sophistic hoops. Not that any of this really matters though: we all implicitly understand that this about narrative spinning and electioneering rather than truth.
    Last edited by Cope; September 27, 2019 at 03:19 AM.



  18. #98

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    They can't. The source isn't actually a whistleblower and, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, his(her?) hearsay testimony wouldn't even be accepted in a civil court. The editorialized accusations which are made in the complaint bear no particular relation to the evidence as shown in the transcript unless you're prepared to jump through the usual sophistic hoops. Not that any of this really matters though: we all implicitly understand that this about narrative spinning and electioneering rather than truth.
    That's irrelevant and premature dismissal and accusations against the presumed biased nature of the media is just as foolish as a conclusion that Donald Trump broke the law. This is why impeachment proceedings or a general investigation is important. If Trump is innocent, he shouldn't be afraid to clear his name.

  19. #99

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    That's irrelevant and premature dismissal and accusations against the presumed biased nature of the media is just as foolish as a conclusion that Donald Trump broke the law.
    Accusations made by an unnamed, 2nd hand source are fundamentally unreliable. This is precisely why hearsay is inadmissible (almost always) even in cases determined by a preponderance of the evidence. You couldn't even get a judgement against someone for driving over your grass verge on the basis of this sort of evidence.

    This is why impeachment proceedings or a general investigation is important. If Trump is innocent, he shouldn't be afraid to clear his name.
    Pelosi announced an impeachment inquiry prior to the release of the transcript. She had clearly already decided to peruse the impeachment route as an electioneering strategy irrespective of what the evidence actually indicated, but it was necessary to shroud the decision in this fabricated scandal in order to give it added legitimacy (given the Mueller flop). So as I said, we all understand that this is just a 2020 play, not a genuine attempt at truth seeking.

    Now I'd always stopped short of referring to Russiagate as a conspiracy because, despite the fraudulence of the Steele dossier and the laughable partiality of the liberal press, it was clear that the Kremlin had opposed a Clinton presidency and there were substantive reasons for suspecting that the Russians had been involved in the theft and exposure of the DNC emails. Trump had also painted a target on his own back by arguably soliciting Russian help in recovering the tens of thousands of emails which HRC had deleted. This Ukrainian controversy, however, is nothing more than cynical politicking - which is something we all here understand, even if some people will never admit it.



  20. #100
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Accusations made by an unnamed, 2nd hand source are fundamentally unreliable.
    And yet the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community said, 'I have determined that the Complainant has reported an "urgent concern" that "appears credible.'

    I'm afraid I'm going to take his judgment over yours.

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...e-whistleblow/

    Pelosi announced an impeachment inquiry prior to the release of the transcript. She had clearly already decided to peruse the impeachment route as an electioneering strategy irrespective of what the evidence actually indicated, but it was necessary to shroud the decision in this fabricated scandal in order to give it added legitimacy (given the Mueller flop). So as I said, we all understand that this is just a 2020 play, not a genuine attempt at truth seeking.
    This speculation is pretty non-sensical since it's pretty common knowledge that Pelosi was holding off on any impeachment inquiry precisely because it would damage the Democrats' election strategy, not help it.
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