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Thread: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

  1. #61
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    So I haven’t hung around here much recently and I only skimmed the thread’s first page. So most of what I know I happened to hear on LBC Radio yesterday.

    So, a whistleblower said they knew of Trump making a clandestine call to the Ukrainian President, and wanted him to get dirt on Joe Biden or else America wouldn’t support Ukraine against Russia. Trump also apparently believes in a false conspiracy theory that Joe Biden wanted the prosecutor investigating the Ukrainian oil company his son Hunter Biden worked in replaced to protect his son, which there’s no evidence for.

    So essentially, Trump was using United States assets, including what I assume is military assets as well as financial aid as a bargaining chip against Ukraine for his election campaign, like a gangster in a Scorcese film saying ‘That’s a nice country there, be a shame if something happened to it’, or similarly, you could compare the political favour Trump wanted as extortionate protection money. Surely that’s a gross abuse of executive power and an impeachable offense.
    Last edited by Ybbon; September 26, 2019 at 04:23 PM. Reason: edited for consistency
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  2. #62
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    So essentially, Trump was using United States assets, including what I assume is military assets as well as financial aid as a bargaining chip against Ukraine for his election campaign, like a gangster in a Scorcese film saying ‘That’s a nice country there, be a shame if something happened to it’, or similarly, you could compare the political favour Trump wanted as extortionate protection money. Surely that’s a gross abuse of executive power and an impeachable offense.
    That's the allegation. The facts, as we know them, don't support the allegation. While Trump was withholding aid, he had other reasons for doing so, among them the long standing concern about corruption within the country and German and European reticence in supporting Ukraine (being of the opinion that Europe needs to cough up money too, not just the USA) both of which Trump talks about in his call with Zelenskyy.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; September 26, 2019 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Removed content I wasn't sure about
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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post

    So essentially, Trump was using United States assets, including what I assume is military assets as well as financial aid as a bargaining chip against Ukraine for his election campaign, like a gangster in a Scorcese film saying ‘That’s a nice country there, be a shame if something happened to it’, or similarly, you could compare the political favour Trump wanted as extortionate protection money. Surely that’s a gross abuse of executive power and an impeachable offense.
    We will see if that happened. So far, he doesn't seem to have done that and if this proves to be another smoking gun, it would backfire for the democrats big time.
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  4. #64
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    From what I heard on the news, the transcript cleariy shows Trump saying if Ukraine doesn’t investigate Biden he will withdraw financial support from Ukraine. That’s a threat, and a fact.
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  5. #65

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    From what I heard on the news, the transcript cleariy shows Trump saying if Ukraine doesn’t investigate Biden he will withdraw financial support from Ukraine. That’s a threat, and a fact.
    You should read the transcript yourself. Very little was said clearly on any topic.
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    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  6. #66
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    You should read the transcript yourself. Very little was said clearly on any topic.
    Indeed. If anything, Trump should be impeached for his inability to string together two coherent sentences.

    I found this hilarious article on CNN.

    To understand the true meaning of what President Donald Trump told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in their phone conversation in July, it is important to remember that the President speaks in code.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; September 26, 2019 at 10:10 AM.
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  7. #67

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    From what I heard on the news, the transcript cleariy shows Trump saying if Ukraine doesn’t investigate Biden he will withdraw financial support from Ukraine. That’s a threat, and a fact.
    There was no threat, no blackmail, no quid pro quo and no bribery. If you can't be bothered reading the entire transcript, I quoted the relevant portions (as they pertain to Crowdstrike and Biden) here.



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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Indeed. If anything, Trump should be impeached for his inability to string together two coherent sentences.

    I found this hilarious article on CNN.
    Look, I am against the witch hunt... but impeaching him for incompetence based on "he can't speak coherently" is not a witch hunt. Sure, the voters would have their say about that, and it is a partisan move, but it is not immoral to try that.
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  9. #69

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    While you have a point Katsumoto, the democrats won't go for things that are indeed, unquestionably bad. If they do find such things, and release them, it would be fine.
    Are you saying disobeying the law is ok? This all started with obstructing the whistleblower complaint the IG said Congress should see.
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  10. #70

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Amash noted that, according to the transcript, the president said, "I would like you to do us a favor, though." Trump then referenced CrowdStrike, the cybersecurity firm that investigated the 2016 hack on the Democratic National Committee, and said Attorney General William Barr would call Zelensky. "I would like you to get to the bottom of it," Trump said, according to the transcript.
    Trump's defenders, Amash wrote, "want you to believe he stops there. But he continues."
    Amash noted that, soon after, Trump went on to discuss "the other thing"—the Bidens.


    https://www.newsweek.com/justin-amas...-words-1461542


    The fact that Trumplandia’s defense of the Leader is already down to selective semantic interpretations can’t be good news for Team Trump, given we’re all of 48 hours in.


    Even Laura Ingram unintentionally stumped Giuliani when she asked him why he would be involved in an investigation of alleged criminal activity by the Bidens as Trump’s personal attorney, rather than anyone from the DoJ, FBI, etc. Giuliani responded with a word salad about being a “simple country lawyer” who “got a call from the State Department,” before finishing with a rant about being Trump’s defense attorney. Oops.


    https://www.newsweek.com/rudy-giulia...-after-1461257


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  11. #71
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    The telephone conversation with Selenskyj:

    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...a-1288633.html

    Here the application letter about the attempt of the US administration to restrict the publication of the telephone call with Selenskyj:

    https://www.spiegel.de/media/media-44932.pdf
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; September 26, 2019 at 12:18 PM.
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  12. #72

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    You don't legally need an excuse. As a political move (which it is) it requires an excuse. About Nixon, I don't think it was wrong but I don't see the two cases as similar.
    What I see is that the democrats use their power to go after the POTUS, grasping on non-existing issues ... just because they can. And I think this will backfire.
    You think Congress had all the evidence when they started investigating Nixon? You think Congress had all the evidence up to the day of impeachment proceedings? You think Congress was bipartisan on impeaching Nixon? Please, it's like literally watching the same thing all over again. Right up to the sycophants insisting that there is nothing "explicit" in anything Trump does.

    While you have a point Katsumoto, the democrats won't go for things that are indeed, unquestionably bad. If they do find such things, and release them, it would be fine.
    However, they will go for things that can be made to appear bad, or are bad according to them. They can also cause headaches with interruptions and interference to cause delays and obstruction.
    In another thread, just recently, you said that "two wrongs don't make a right". But apparently if one side is "wrong", they cannot point out wrongdoing by the other side. Wtf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Indeed. If anything, Trump should be impeached for his inability to string together two coherent sentences.

    I found this hilarious article on CNN.
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    You should read the transcript yourself. Very little was said clearly on any topic.
    Are you boys confused about what's going on the clip below?



    Was the little clip clear there? Or are you perhaps puzzled about what actually happened in Godfather?

  13. #73
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    I have no doubts that Trump acted like a Mafia boss,
    I Wrote rote About the Bidens and Ukraine Years Ago - The Intercept
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  14. #74
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Comparing Trump to Don Corleone is more flattery than I am prepared to give him.

    @Ludicus - Biden's campaign is over. I'm willing to bet a reputation point that his name will not be mentioned at the Democratic convention.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; September 26, 2019 at 02:56 PM.
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  15. #75

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Comparing Trump to Don Corleone is more flattery than I am prepared to give him.

    @Ludicus - Biden's campaign is over. I'm willing to bet a reputation point that his name will not be mentioned at the Democratic convention.
    So can someone imply a quid pro quo without saying so directly? Or is that perhaps beyond the power of the English language?

  16. #76
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    So can someone imply a quid pro quo without saying so directly? Or is that perhaps beyond the power of the English language?
    You can, but If we are going to go around assigning the worst possible motives to a politician's words, no one survives that.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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  17. #77

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Perhaps that’s why an investigation is to everyone’s benefit. But the White House hasn’t been the most cooperative with that task, have they?

  18. #78
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Perhaps that’s why an investigation is to everyone’s benefit. But the White House hasn’t been the most cooperative with that task, have they?
    Yeah it should be investigated, but you are dead wrong about the cooperation. Trump did not have to release the phone transcript at all. We would have been well within his rights to assert exec privilege at this point.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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  19. #79

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Yeah it should be investigated, but you are dead wrong about the cooperation. Trump did not have to release the phone transcript at all. We would have been well within his rights to assert exec privilege at this point.
    Sure, and Congress is within their rights to start investigating or impeaching. Yet your angle isn’t about suspicious behavior of the POTUS but about Joe Biden’s son who’s been involved in Ukraine for years.

  20. #80
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Worth reading the actual whistle-blower document now that's it been released. The call is not the only aspect of the story here.

    III. Ongoing concerns

    On 26 July, a day after the call, U.S. Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations Kurt Volker visited Kyiv and met with President Zelenskyy and a variety of Ukrainian political figures. Ambassador Volker was accompanied in his meetings by U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland. Based on multiple readouts of these meetings recounted to me by various U.S. officials, Ambassadors Volker and Sondland reportedly provided advice to the Ukrainian leadership about how to “navigate” the demands that the President had made of Mr. Zelenskyy.

    I also learned from multiple U.S. officials that, on or about 2 August, Mr. Giuliani reportedly traveled to Madrid to meet with one of President Zelenskyy’s advisers, Andriy Yermak. The U.S. officials characterized this meeting, which was not reported publicly at the time, as a “direct follow-up” to the President's call with Mr. Zelenskyy about the “cases” they had discussed.

    Separately, multiple U.S. officials told me that Mr. Giuliani had reportedly privately reached out to a variety of other Zelenskyy advisers, including Chief of Staff Andriy Bohdan and Acting Chairman of the Security Service of Ukraine Ivan Bakanov.

    I do not know whether those officials met or spoke with Mr. Giuliani, but I was told separately by multiple U.S. officials that Mr. Yermak and Mr. Bakanov intended to travel to Washington in mid-August.

    On 9 August, the President told reporters: “I think [President Zelenskyy] is going to make a deal with President Putin, and he will be invited to the White House. And we look forward to seeing him. He’s already been invited to the White House, and he wants to come. And I think he will. He’s a very reasonable guy. He wants to see peace in Ukraine, and I think he will be coming very soon, actually.”

    __

    Starting in mid-May, I heard from multiple U.S. officials that they were deeply concerned by what they viewed as Mr. Giuliani's circumvention of national security decisionmaking processes to engage with Ukrainian officials and relay messages back and forth between Kyiv and the President.

    These officials also told me:

    that State Department officials, including Ambassadors Volker and Sondland, had spoken with Mr. Giuliani in an attempt to “contain the damage” to U.S. national security; and
    that Ambassadors Volker and Sondland during this time period met with members of the new Ukrainian administration and, in addition to discussing policy matters, sought to help Ukrainian leaders understand and respond to the differing messages they were receiving from official U.S. channels on the one hand, and from Mr. Giuliani on the other.

    During this same timeframe, multiple U.S. officials told me that the Ukrainian leadership was led to believe that a meeting or phone call between the President and President Zelenskyy would depend on whether Zelenskyy showed willingness to “play ball” on the issues that had been publicly aired by Mr. Lutsenko and Mr. Giuliani. (Note: This was the general understanding of the state of affairs as conveyed to me by U.S. officials from late May into early July. I do not know who delivered this message to the Ukrainian leadership, or when.) See Enclosure for additional information.
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...?module=inline
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